Putin critic shot on streets of Moscow

[Searcher08]

I should be surprised by the Putin hero-worship here - after all, it was on this board that I recall first discussing the false-flag Russian apartment bombings that Putin was generally believed to have concocted - but considering how much the alt-media has been singing Putin's praises over the last couple years, I suppose a bit of retroactive amnesia is to be expected.

Putin. A good guy. Never thought I'd live to see the day.

J

I am really surprised at you coming out with this pro-Kievian nonsense and then reframing the objections to it as being Putinian hero worship. Doesn't seem like you.

Russia is under an all out economic attack by the US, who are using Saudi proxies to fuxor the rouble, which has pretty much happened.
Ukraine is run by the US State Department proxies and is about to be asset stripped in return for an IMF lifeline loan.
The Azov Battalion is not shown as being a fascist death squad in the NYT. It still is, though.
Crimea has been Russian since 1783. Whether the Russians should sod off and leave it to the Crimean Tatars who were in the place for half a millennium before that is a moot point.
RI has had a Copy Pasta deluge supporting the "Putin and Russia" are evil. These have been very thoroughly debunked as neo-libcon propaganda, from George Soros funded and run organisations.

Mainstream media tends to show consistency on the Russian side. They are acting the same way as they did in a BBC documentary that covered the Georgian war, which had extensive interviews with all the participants such as Rice, Lavrov etc. A great program.

The Russians were pragmatic, rational and willing to seek win-win outcomes and were creative in the solutions they put forward. They telegraphed their intentions clearly and followed through on their word.

The Americans and Georgians were neo-con ideology-driven, acted much more unpredictably, were more concerned about 'losing face', didn't give a shit about 'win-win' outcomes, were terrible negotiators who just repeated the same thing over and over, were useless at telegraphing intention and could not be predictably relied upon.

This dynamic, from all the mainstream sources I have seen, seems to be repeating regarding Ukraine.

[Sounder]

Jerky » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:25 pm wrote:

No worshipers. Only people calling him the finest leader in the whole wide world!

Nope. No Putin worship here. I'm obviously drunk on something.

Fucking idiots.

J

solace wrote...
See what happens when you don't toe the party line round here?

I know what you mean solace, the party line people start classing a variety of 'objectors' to these western provocations as Putin lovers and thereby 'Fucking idiots' Lotta style there jerky, did you say you are a friend of Jeff's?

Anyway jerky, a point about proportionality was brought up in regard to who are the real masters of chaos.

I would be honored if you addressed the assertions.

Otherwise I may be tempted to think of you as no more than a wanna be twitting champ.

[Searcher08]

See what happens when you don't toe the party line round here?

oh man, you are funny

Reading the consistently 'spitting with rage' delivery makes me wonder...

I have sometimes WONDERED...
Is is true that
Solace is a virulent anti-semite.
I have concerns
Then I think she is probably just your usual entitled 16yr old.

[Nordic]

I should be surprised by the Putin hero-worship here - after all, it was on this board that I recall first discussing the false-flag Russian apartment bombings that Putin was generally believed to have concocted - but considering how much the alt-media has been singing Putin's praises over the last couple years, I suppose a bit of retroactive amnesia is to be expected.

Putin. A good guy. Never thought I'd live to see the day.

J

I am really surprised at you coming out with this pro-Kievian nonsense and then reframing the objections to it as being Putinian hero worship. Doesn't seem like you.

Russia is under an all out economic attack by the US, who are using Saudi proxies to fuxor the rouble, which has pretty much happened.
Ukraine is run by the US State Department proxies and is about to be asset stripped in return for an IMF lifeline loan.
The Azov Battalion is not shown as being a fascist death squad in the NYT. It still is, though.
Crimea has been Russian since 1783. Whether the Russians should sod off and leave it to the Crimean Tatars who were in the place for half a millennium before that is a moot point.
RI has had a Copy Pasta deluge supporting the "Putin and Russia" are evil. These have been very thoroughly debunked as neo-libcon propaganda, from George Soros funded and run organisations.

Mainstream media tends to show consistency on the Russian side. They are acting the same way as they did in a BBC documentary that covered the Georgian war, which had extensive interviews with all the participants such as Rice, Lavrov etc. A great program.

The Russians were pragmatic, rational and willing to seek win-win outcomes and were creative in the solutions they put forward. They telegraphed their intentions clearly and followed through on their word.

The Americans and Georgians were neo-con ideology-driven, acted much more unpredictably, were more concerned about 'losing face', didn't give a shit about 'win-win' outcomes, were terrible negotiators who just repeated the same thing over and over, were useless at telegraphing intention and could not be predictably relied upon.

This dynamic, from all the mainstream sources I have seen, seems to be repeating regarding Ukraine.

Yes. If Jerky weren't so Jerky, he would either know this already, or he would be STFU'ing and paying attention and learning something from people less ignorant than he.

[Wombaticus Rex]

We operate in an information environment so over-saturated that it is normal for people to fundamentally disagree on such issues.

Although many of you feel that Jerky has been sneering and hostile, and are perhaps justified in feeling so -- that's not justification to respond in kind.

It would be impossible for anyone to wade back into this and have a civil conversation when things have become so barbed and pointedly personal, although of course I don't mean to dissuade Jerky from trying should the spirit move his soul.

Surely, we could all tone it down a bit. Proportionality, indeed. Cheers.

[coffin_dodger]

Surely, we could all tone it down a bit.

Sounds reasonable, you f****** c***.

[solace]

We operate in an information environment so over-saturated that it is normal for people to fundamentally disagree on such issues.

Although many of you feel that Jerky has been sneering and hostile, and are perhaps justified in feeling so -- that's not justification to respond in kind.

It would be impossible for anyone to wade back into this and have a civil conversation when things have become so barbed and pointedly personal, although of course I don't mean to dissuade Jerky from trying should the spirit move his soul.

Surely, we could all tone it down a bit. Proportionality, indeed. Cheers.

Jerky was pretty civil til Nordic became an insulting dickhead so puleeze ........ and I don't particularly care for Jerky so you know keep it real

[Searcher08]

Surely, we could all tone it down a bit.

Sounds reasonable, you f****** c***.

That is just so Lunnin, innit,
<cuffs CD's head with oven-mitts>

[Searcher08]

We operate in an information environment so over-saturated that it is normal for people to fundamentally disagree on such issues.

Although many of you feel that Jerky has been sneering and hostile, and are perhaps justified in feeling so -- that's not justification to respond in kind.

It would be impossible for anyone to wade back into this and have a civil conversation when things have become so barbed and pointedly personal, although of course I don't mean to dissuade Jerky from trying should the spirit move his soul.

Surely, we could all tone it down a bit. Proportionality, indeed. Cheers.

Jerky was pretty civil til Nordic became an insulting dickhead so puleeze ........ and I don't particularly care for Jerky so you know keep it real

lulz

Hell would freeze over before the series "Solace lectures RI members in civility" would be treated with anything other than howling derision and a stage filled with custard pies.

THAT is called 'keepin it real'

[Wombaticus Rex]

Jerky was pretty civil til Nordic became an insulting dickhead so puleeze ........ and I don't particularly care for Jerky so you know keep it real

I apologize for not being more clear: I'm not trying to make points regarding who started what so much as trying to convey that we have more pressing questions to address here.

Someone else always started it.

We can always stop doing it.

[solace]

Jerky was pretty civil til Nordic became an insulting dickhead so puleeze ........ and I don't particularly care for Jerky so you know keep it real

I apologize for not being more clear: I'm not trying to make points regarding who started what so much as trying to convey that we have more pressing questions to address here.

Someone else always started it.

We can always stop doing it.

Fair enough. Although your last sentence makes me grin. Consider that AD isn't even posting on this thread yet gets invoked. That shit will never go away/stop as long as certain posters draw breath.

[seemslikeadream]

AD is not posting in this thread because he has been suspended again and his name was invoked because of the very reason he was suspended ...labeling people..... Putin Lovers this time...see the thing is his labels stick and have a life of their own even when they are not true


trying to be civil while correcting the record

[Searcher08]

Labelling is a very intellectually lazy way of pretending to engage with people, which in reality is only engaging with a Post-It note worth of one's own mental model.

Going back to the OP, I have not seen any story about Ukraine where Putin was called out for reneging on a promise to deliver when the other side had fulfilled their end of the bargain.

I definitely think he is not abandoning the idea of nation-state unlike the globalists.

[JackRiddler]

I'm not here, so here's a one-time intervention:

"The globalists" haven't abandoned the idea of the nation-state, they're just trying to destroy the ones they don't like, because they are not "the globalists" (for fuck's sake!) but the far more familiar imperialists. They're only "global" if that means they'd like to control everything in the world. Ideology has little to do with it.

The U.S.-led Western powers (in the preferred guise of an "international community") and Russia have been at war with each other in the Ukraine. It is clear the Kiev regime is illegitimate and has been driving the violence ever since the coup, including using Nazis as its shock troops. It is clear the U.S. has backed this incredible and bloody destabilization, which has reached a new phase with the military draft and its extension to mine workers on strike. Russia - currently harboring one million refugees from the Kiev-led war - has acted defensively and would like to see it settled. The only good thing to say about Putin are that he has mounted a nationalist defense against aggression - except in those cases, like Chechnya, where he was the clear aggressor. (Fuck, you could say something similar about Saddam!)

Putin achieved his present position in the wake of an enormous and obvious false-flag terror crime in Moscow in 1999. Interesting how thoroughly this is at times forgotten on this board, of all places. He didn't necessarily arrange that, but he was the beneficiary. Who knows to whom he is beholden, what kind of gangsters who have less to lose? His is absolutely is an authoritarian regime trampling on the press and on minorities. (That doesn't justify anything Kiev or the State Department do.) But "authoritarian" does not mean all-powerful or completely in charge of its own repressive machinery. This latest assassination - of the architect of capitalist shock therapy back under Yeltsin - could come from either camp, and need not have been the product of anyone's orders from above.

The situation at the ground levels of political violence is not always the product of leaders pursuing what appear to be rational geostrategic interests, but of a riot of factions, including crazy hardline motherfuckers of various stripes. This could be an unsolicited "birthday gift" (Politskaya was killed on Putin's birthday) from such within Putin's own camp. Not even the earlier "birthday gift" assassination of a Khodorkovsky nemesis was something the latter necessarily wanted or was aware of beforehand. This could instead be arranged from within the Western (or Ukrainian, or other) camp to appear as such. All of these characters sleep with brutal and stupid allies. Nevertheless, for professionals it's not hard to leave no fingerprints. Those of you who purport to know with certainty what happened to Nemtsov are fooling yourselves.

[Nordic]

Speaking for myself I would almost never claim to "know with certainty" about anything. Even whether or not my own existence is real.

I tend to think in percentages of uncertainty. So in this case to claim that Putin was the likely culprit shows a large amount of ignorance as to the subject matter. I would say it's far more likely that he didn't, considering how carefully and craftily he's played this chess game with the stupid, lurching bully of the West.

Also I've been reading, and I'll see if I can find support for this but I can't right at this minute, that this particular victim was actually a mere bit player insofar as the Putin government was concerned, and was more of a poster boy for the US/NATO/IMF bag of creeps. In other words, even alive he meant far more to the west than to Putin.