"The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby dada » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:33 pm

Thanks, guruilla. Putting all aesthetic opinions of Crowley's writing aside, I find it difficult to argue against the point you're making. At the very least, Crowley was aware of what went on in the elite circles he was connected to. Seen in this context, he served as a distraction, a diversion for people much more powerful than he is. Sort of a sycophantic clown for the establishment.

Do the intelligence-surveillance 'community' and the political elite even need to hide behind an 'occult' veil anymore, though? They hide in plain sight now, and people just pretend they don't see it. Ever since the torture porn at abu ghraib, I've been traumatized. That was my '9/11 moment.' These factions basically said 'yeah, we do this. What are you going to do about it?'

I'd also like to add that it seems occult symbols have now been appropriated by capital, devoid of any meaning they had, or pretended to have. Eye in pyramid and crowleyisms are dredged up as an edgy image to move product, like punk rock, or discordian chic.

I was surprised at that Biden discussion, as well. I don't see his behavior as acceptable. It's inappropriate. Even if it were 'just innocent uncle Joe,' that doesn't make it right.

The Chik-tract vampire seems silly to talk about after that stuff. I will, though. I want to explain my trouble with him as a source of information.

I take any source with a grain of salt. Knowing that this fellow has a clear bias against anything magic-related, I have to take his opinion on magic-related matters with way more than one grain of salt. It becomes (for me) impossible to tell if he's being truthful in any way. Even if I'm not disparaging him, I can't find him to be a 'credible witness.'
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby guruilla » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:08 pm

dada wrote:Knowing that this fellow has a clear bias against anything magic-related, I have to take his opinion on magic-related matters with way more than one grain of salt. It becomes (for me) impossible to tell if he's being truthful in any way. Even if I'm not disparaging him, I can't find him to be a 'credible witness.'

I don't disagree, feel the same way; I just found that point about the tunnels valid in and of itself, as with the Biden video with questionable subtitles. Valid as in, worth further investigation.

dada wrote:I'd also like to add that it seems occult symbols have now been appropriated by capital, devoid of any meaning they had, or pretended to have. Eye in pyramid and crowleyisms are dredged up as an edgy image to move product, like punk rock, or discordian chic.

I'm inclined to agree with this too, in a way. Except that I wouldn't equate meaning with power or efficacy. To the unconscious these symbols are still meaningful & it may be that the trivialization of them means we are even more defenseless against them, i.e., that there is an even greater chasm between our conscious & unconscious lives, as compared to our more superstitious ancestors (or our current Christian brethren).

As an example (sort of), I just came upon this British tabloid article online:

SHOCK CLAIM: Jimmy Savile ‘occultist WITCH who worshipped satanist Aleister Crowley'

EVIL Jimmy Savile was a wizard who used black magic to gain control over the rich and powerful so he could do what he pleased, a new theory claims.

By Patrick Knox / Published 17th September 2016
Aleister Crowley and Jimmy Savile DS

DISTURBING: Savile is suspected to have been a satanist
Investigators have pieced together an extraordinary theory that the disgraced TV personality believed he was an occultist following in the footsteps of the late satanist Aleister Crowley.

Using black magic powers, it is alleged he placed TV bosses, celebs and powerful politicians and even members of the Royal Family under his spell.

This way he could travel the UK abusing children and the disabled at will as well as practising necrophilia on bodies in hospital morgues.

Savile, who died aged 84 in October 2011, is now Britain’s worst sex offender after police revealed he preyed on at least 450 victims aged eight to 47.

Chillingly, the DJ once boasted: “I am not constrained pretty well by anything.

"The tough thing in life is ultimate freedom. Ultimate freedom is the big challenge.

"Now, I’ve got it. And I can tell you that there’s not many of us that’s got ultimate freedom."

The conspiracy theory points to tell-tale signs that "prove" Savile was a wizard and practising satanist and that this helped him do what he pleased.

The group behind the claims, Society X, have made a web documentary exploring the extraordinary claims.

They point out the warped DJ was the seventh son in his family – and they are reputed to have magic powers – and that he was born on Halloween.

Savile throughout his life is said to have dropped hints of his occultism.

One was during a TV interview in the 1980s where he admitted creeping out fellow miners he worked with during World War 2.

Speaking on TV, he said: "No-one ever did eight hours down the pit and came back as immaculate as they set off with white shirt and everything like that.

"They were quite convinced I was a witch."

Savile is said to have read books by the light of his miners' lamp, something immortalised on the epitaph on his gravestone, which also states: "His avid reading taught him things before he had not found."

His reading material is said to have included Crowley, an occultist wizard whose satanic cult and teachings was said to have played a central part in his life.

Countless photographs show him appearing in public wearing a wizard's gown.

Emblazoned on the front is an 11 pointed star – a symbol of Crowley occultist religion called Thelma.

And he even nick-named the bed in his penthouse overlooking Leeds' Roundhay Park the "alter".

When he died he was buried at a 45-degree angle overlooking the same stretch of sea where Dracula’s ship washed up and also owned a vampire's cape.

In 2013 the Sunday Express revealed allegations that Savile had conducted a satanist ritual in the basement of Stoke Mandeville Hospital.

The child molesting A-list celeb wore a hooded robe and mask as he abused the terrified victim in a candle-lit basement.

He also chanted "hail Satan" in Latin as other paedophile devil worshippers joined in and assaulted the girl at Stoke Mandeville Hospital in Buckinghamshire.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest- ... er-crowley

What to make of this? It's salacious & almost entirely devoid of substance, really just titillating filler for a crappy tabloid,. And yet, it's dealing with the most serious subject matter imaginable, and the basic premise of it is (IMO) most likely true, i.e., that Savile was influenced by (and shares many qualities with) Crowley. (Some might say, so what?)

For some reason, now, 5 years after Savile died, someone in a position of influence (the Daily Star is probably read by millions) decided to throw this article together based on really nothing but internet memes and common sense. That it was decided this would interest readers to know (sell papers) is more significant, IMO, than the piece itself, which barely offers so much as a solid lead for the serious researcher to follow. It positively discourages serious investigation. So is this deliberate trivialization with the aim of damning by association while at the same time desensitizing people to the material?

It's very odd for me, because I am working on a book that juxtaposes Savile & Crowley & I doubt I will find anything but an academic or otherwise marginal publisher for it, if that. Yet at the same time, the subject is being used like big-breasted women to spice up the tabloids for the unwashed masses! :signwhut:
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby Burnt Hill » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:40 pm

For dada and guruilla- while both of your concerns in regards to Biden, as expressed in this thread, are valid,
none of it reaches the point of even suggesting that Biden is abusive, a predator, or especially, a pedophile.
Comparing him to Saville, as has occurred on the other thread, is a bridge too far- without some corroborating evidence, of which no one has posted any yet. Being an elite politician is not evidence.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby guruilla » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:40 pm

Only just noticed this:

Emblazoned on the front is an 11 pointed star – a symbol of Crowley occultist religion called Thelma.

:lol:
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby guruilla » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:43 pm

Cross-posting with Pedophile File thread.

I have chosen to quote the Mail article (despite some dislike of the paper at this site) over The Guardian article, here, as The Guardian's own bias on this subject has been called into question (see below).

How the art establishment helped paedophile painter Graham Ovenden get away with child abuse for 20 years
Guilty of six counts of indecency with a child and one of indecent assault
Ovenden sexually abused under-aged sitters in his paintings
The abused girls were all aged between six and 14
The Tate showed Ovenden's pictures of naked girls in its galleries
By GEOFFREY LEVY FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 22:45 GMT, 5 April 2013 | UPDATED: 08:48 GMT, 6 April 2013

Nearly 20 years have passed since police from the Child Protection squad banged on the door of the celebrated artist and photographer Graham Ovenden, searched his Cornish home and packaged up hundreds of images of naked children they considered to be obscene.

From that moment the art establishment, in all its pompous glory, has been defending Ovenden’s sexually suggestive works on the grounds (note this, mere mortals) that art must not be confused with porn.

Such was the furore raised by the art world over the 1994 arrest of the artist — whose works were selling for up to £25,000 — that, to the incredulity of Scotland Yard, the Crown Prosecution Service decided not to charge him.

Fifteen years later the police were back with another search warrant, and this time he was charged with having indecent images of children on his computer. He was acquitted.

Each of these episodes was seen as a victory for art itself and gave rise to learned articles explaining, for example, how Ovenden’s re-creation of pre-Raphaelite photography permitted candid child nudity. One London gallery even put on an exhibition of work under the title The Obscene Publications Squad Versus Art.

So it was quite a shockwave that hit the art world this week when Ovenden, now 70, was exposed as a devious paedophile who sexually abused some of his innocent young sitters.

Ovenden’s pose of genial respectability was torn away as he was found guilty at Truro Crown Court of six counts of indecency with a child and one of indecently assaulting a child. All took place before his first arrest. The children, all girls, were aged between six and 14.

Even the Tate, home of British art, which has always stoically stood by him, at last decided it had little choice but to remove its collection of 34 works — including naked child images — from its website. Nor will the works any longer be available to view by appointment.

A spokesman said his convictions ‘shone a new light’ on his work. Indeed so. The police could have told them that years ago.

But then, down the years, Ovenden — who has a son and daughter by estranged wife Annie, a fellow artist whom he married in 1969 — always had powerful supporters.

These included celebrated artists such as David Hockney, Sir Peter Blake and Sir Hugh Casson, as well as Sir Piers Rodgers, the non-artist former secretary of the Royal Academy.
And despite the shocking turn of events, twice-married Sir Piers, 68, still has no qualms about his support for Ovenden’s child images.


‘I did stand up for him when he was attacked in the mid-1990s and I think I was right to do so,’ he says. ‘There was no question, as far as we knew, of his having touched or abused any of the children he painted. He made images of children and we [the Royal Academy] felt that they were legitimate.

Any other view would make many of the great masterpieces pornography in an utterly ridiculous way.

‘The depiction of children in itself seemed to us to be unobjectionable. We supported Graham Ovenden in that. If I had thought that his intent was to get sexual gratification from young children I wouldn’t have supported it.’

It remains surprising, however, that the art world, with its many flamboyant ‘experts’, didn’t spot just what Graham Ovenden really had in mind by looking at his collection of drawings called Aspects Of Lolita.

This is a series of suggestive drawings depicting the 12-year-old girl lusted after by a middle-aged professor in the Nabokov novel Lolita, published in 1955.

One critic this week described Ovenden’s Lolita images as seeming ‘quite baldly and openly sexual in a way that dares the onlooker to accuse him of something’.

A number of them of them, including Lolita Seductive, Lolita Meditating and Lolita Recumbent — images of a naked or semi-clothed pre-pubescent girl in different poses — could until this week be seen at the Tate.

A second-hand, hardback, 48-page copy of Aspects Of Lolita was on offer on Amazon this week at just under £1,275.

So is there anything in his background to suggest a predeliction for very young girls? Not on the face of it.

Ovenden enjoyed an idyllic childhood in Hampshire. He grew up in a Fabian household, and the poet John Betjeman was a family friend. After school, he studied at the Royal College of Art and befriended the pop artist Sir Peter Blake, best known for creating the Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band album cover for the Beatles.

Ovenden has said his main interest is in English landscapes. But what he became famous — and then notorious — for were his studies of girls, and his paintings hung in the world’s most respected galleries.

Only now, after his conviction, are some observers finding a new significance in Ovenden leaving London for Cornwall in 1975 and founding with a group of fellow artists the so-called Brotherhood of Ruralists which took a traditional, backward-looking view of art.

In Cornwall, he settled on an estate called Barley Splatt on the edge of Bodmin Moor. Its eccentric house of Cornish granite, complete with turrets and slit windows, was set in 22 acres of grounds with a beech wood, pastureland and a tumbling stream. It was here that Ovenden entertained fellow artists, writers, musicians . . . and children.

When he gave evidence at Truro Crown Court, Ovenden portrayed Barley Spratt as a hidden Eden, where children could live as nature intended. They were encouraged to run free — and naked when it was warm.

The jury was told that Ovenden was a man of good character, with no convictions, cautions or reprimands. The artist denied the abuse ever happened. He told the court he had taken pictures of children—- including those in various states of undress — but said they were not indecent.

In evidence, Ovenden said there was a ‘witch-hunt’ against those who produce work involving naked children and he accused police of ‘falsifying’ images recovered from his home computer
He argued that he had a ‘moral obligation’ to show children in a ‘state of grace’. The idea of pictures of naked children being obscene was ‘abhorrent’.

His artistic haven in Cornwall, where he encouraged girls to pose, provided the perfect opportunity for him to create ‘fine art’ images that echoed some of the 19th century pornographic pictures of children that emerged in the early years of photography.

In this context, although it makes difficult reading, it is worth repeating just a part of what prosecuting counsel Ramsay Quaife told the jury in Truro this week.

He described how Ovenden would dress the children in Victorian-style nighties before leaving them naked and blindfolded, then get them to perform what he called ‘taste tests’.
‘The defendant would put tape over her eyes,’ said Mr Quaife. ‘She could not see anything. The tape was black, stretchy and smelt of glue.

‘Although she could not see, she could hear the defendant and she could remember the sound of his belt buckle.

‘The defendant would tell her she would do a taste test and would get 10p for every taste she got right. He would then push something into her mouth . . . he told her it was his thumb.’
In fact, Ovenden was performing a disgusting indecent assault on the girl.

Prosecutor Mr Quaife also described how naked girls with taped eyes were moved into different positions and photographed so that their genitals could be seen.

Until this week, Ovenden’s defence against allegations of his pictures of children being pornographic was to use mockery — depicting his accusers as ignorant philistines.

On the second occasion he was arrested — and charged with having indecent images of children on his computer and making indecent images — he bizarrely paraphrased Shakespeare’s Hamlet to the police officers, telling them ‘it is but skin and film’.

The case against him was lost that time when the Crown Prosecution Service failed to call as witnesses two key police officers without whom, said the angry judge, a fair trial was not possible. The freed Ovenden accused the police of being ‘transfixed by childhood sexuality’.

After that, in a series of interviews, Ovenden grandly declared: ‘You should not create a neurosis about child nudity. The pervert is the one who puts the fig-leaf on.’

And: ‘A man once told me that each time he looked at a photograph of a [naked] child the first thing he looked as was the genitals. Surely that makes him the pervert and not me.’

It all sounded so high-minded and grave, this fine-art speak. And with the art world’s support, his life and his work continued uninterrupted, his seedy obsessions impregnable as ‘art’.
It is a situation which comes as no surprise to Brian Sewell, the distinguished art critic and commentator.

‘In my experience whenever the police have attacked artists’ work, the police have lost every time,’ he says. ‘The art world does seem to have rules of its own. Whether it should or not is another matter.

‘Pictures of nude figures can be beautiful works of art, of course. If, on the other hand, you’re setting out to make an erotic photograph, then this is indefensible, because you are setting out not to remind people of the beauty of the human body, the skin, the eyes, but to remind them of what arouses lust.’

But how does one know an artist’s true intention? ‘I certainly do not know what Ovenden had in mind,’ says Sewell, ‘but he should have known very well the consequences of what he was doing. He should have behaved differently. He has only himself to blame.’

And yet, even after his conviction, for which he is on bail awaiting a likely jail sentence, Ovenden has still not been cast adrift by dedicated supporters.

Among his staunchest defenders are the art-loving explorer and author Robin Hanbury-Tenison, 76, and his wife Louella, a former High Sheriff of Cornwall. Indeed, an Ovenden portrait of one of their sons — fully clothed — hangs in the sitting room of their manor house.

‘I simply do not believe Graham is capable of the allegations made against him,’ declares Mrs Hanbury-Tenison. ‘They are not credible in my view.’

Her husband adds: ‘These accounts are coming from women who are now in their 40s. One wonders why it has taken so long. I find it outrageous that there is shock-horror at him having painted little girls naked in the Sixties and Seventies. For this to be compared with the gross activities of people like Jimmy Savile or the appalling pornography on the internet — it just defies belief.

‘The blindfolding of a child [for art] — yes, I can see what he was trying to do in representing innocence and justice.

‘But it is the last gasp of puritanism to be concentrating on somehow making that innocence of childhood into something vulgar.’

As for Ovenden’s pictures of children, the great explorer says that the European art world is ‘laughing at Britain over its obsession with this matter’, adding: ‘As Oscar Wilde said, there is “no spectacle so ridiculous as the British public in one of its periodical fits of morality”.’Oh lucky man, Graham Ovenden, to have such loyal friends.

Sir Piers Rodgers, too, says he would not change the decision he took in 1995. ‘I would probably continue to take the same view now about his work that I did then,’ he admits. ‘What is obscenity is a matter of judgment.’

Too true, and most of us will be forming our own judgments about Ovenden’s ‘art’ in the light of this week’s court case.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4KoWUCoTT


The Guardian have leapt to the defence of convicted paedophile Graham Ovenden. They say we should forget Ovenden’s crimes against children, and appreciate his ‘art’ ,which includes images of child sexual abuse, on its own merits. The author of the article, Rachel Cooke, says she wouldn’t feel any differently about Ovenden’s work “even if the children were naked”. Read more

This follows on from Jon Henley’s deeply sinister article ‘Paedophilia: bringing dark desires to light‘ which was published in the Guardian in January. This article used former chairman of the Paedophile Information Exchange, Tom O’Carroll, as a source, and peddled PIE’s old lie about child sexual abuse causing no harm. The article linked to a sympathetic biography of O’Carroll, but failed to mention that he was convicted for possessing 50,000 images and films of child abuse, including children as young as six being raped and tortured.

The Guardian refuse to cover the Elm Guest House story or any of the other new investigations into historical child abuse such as Lambeth and Kincora.

Most worryingly of all, they won’t cover the Peter Righton story despite being in possession of all the information that has been handed to the current police investigation. This was revealed earlier this year by the source of Tom Watson’s PMQ. The Peter Righton paedophile network preyed on vulnerable children in care homes and schools for decades. It’s a national scandal involving some of the most powerful people in our society exploiting and abusing some of the most vulnerable.

The Guardian used to lead the way on covering child abuse with a series of powerful articles by Nick Davies in the 1990s. When did that change, and why are they priorotising the rights of paedophiles over the rights of abused children?

https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/ ... edophilia/


Also relevant (from Hampstead SRA thread): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38786&p=572941&hilit=ovenden#p572941
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby guruilla » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:46 pm

Post this here re: argument with Levenda, Podesta's involvement in Crowley rituals

Image
Tom Delonge, John Podesta, Peter Levenda and A.J. Hartley (photo taken before WikiLeaks)
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs_Notebook/ ... sta_peter/
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby brekin » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:26 pm

guruilla » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:46 pm wrote:Post this here re: argument with Levenda, Podesta's involvement in Crowley rituals

Image
Tom Delonge, John Podesta, Peter Levenda and A.J. Hartley (photo taken before WikiLeaks)
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs_Notebook/ ... sta_peter/


Some related chatter on Secret Sun from Levanda.

http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2016/11/e ... 6906470082
Peter Levenda11:53 AM, November 07, 2016 wrote:

Whoa yourself. Jasun didn’t “call me out” on my so-called “alibi-ing” of Aleister Crowley. He made stuff up. That’s not the same thing. Why do everyone’s critical faculties go out the window when the subject of occultism, magic and especially Crowley comes up? Are we still living in the Middle Ages, in a Church-controlled monarchy somewhere? Hasn’t there been a wealth of academic research undertaken on these issues in the last 50 years or so? Have we lost our sense of perspective? Again?

At the risk of repeating myself endlessly on this topic – and as I went to considerable pains to clarify in my exchanges with Jasun, to no obvious avail – I was not and do not defend Crowley or his actions. I merely pointed out that there is no evidence he engaged in human sacrifice or the sexual abuse of children. For Jasun, that means I am defending Crowley. For Wordman, that I am absolving Crowley. Jasun and his followers believe the stories they've made up, in spite of the fact that they have no actual proof of any of this. They just assume that Crowley was a bad man and therefore he must have done every evil thing they can imagine, and if I don’t agree with them then I must be part of the problem. That’s their right, I suppose, or at least their predilection. But this is a serious subject and deserves objective, rational treatment.

This lumping together of everything you don’t like into one box called “Satanism” does no one any service. There are definitions for these things. There is ample evidence that Crowley lived a libertine lifestyle and committed all sorts of outrages against social conventions, usually deliberately. His relationships with women were horrendous, for instance. He abused drugs. He frequented prostitutes. He behaved badly towards all sorts of people, including those who were his lovers and friends. I have never stated otherwise, so how can I be accused of “absolving” Crowley for “any and all hints of darkness”? Seriously? More bad reporting and misrepresentation of what I wrote, and that’s about par for the course these days. (I guess you're either on the bus, or off the bus.)


Peter Levenda11:54 AM, November 07, 2016 wrote:

When pressed, Jasun asked me if I did not believe that there was an international cabal of Satan-worshipping child abusers and I had to tell him no. There are international child trafficking groups, of course, all over the world. There are organized crime rings from Asia to Europe to Africa, Latin America and North America that specialize in human trafficking and especially of children and young women. There are also Satanists in other countries, of course (although not so many in Asia or Africa, as you might imagine). That a Satanist may be a child molester is entirely possible. But not all child molesters are Satanists any more than all Satanists are child molesters. This conflating of “Satanism” – and everyone has their own definition of what this, which makes things even more complicated – with pedophilia only serves to muddy the waters especially where law enforcement efforts are concerned. Why not focus on political cabals of child molesters, for which there is much more evidence, as Nick Bryant has demonstrated? Throwing “Satanism” into the mix results in a kind of misdirection where we focus more on the “spooky” quality of weird rituals in candlelit temples than it does on the sick perps themselves.

To the point, Jasun is also a critic of Whitley Strieber and Jeffrey Kripal and has attacked their recent work, The Super Natural, on no logical grounds at all. One wonders if he even read the book before he posted his “review” on amazon. He has a visceral hatred of Strieber who has become a bit player in Jasun’s fantasy of UFO abductions as screen memories for … you guessed it … child abuse. There is no journalistic integrity there, no attempt at making a case based on any kind of fact, just gut feelings and emotionality. Salem witchcraft hysteria and “spectral evidence.” This is not “parapolitics”. It’s paranoia. They’re not the same thing. Read what I wrote. I was very clear as to the distinctions between what someone “feels” is true and what can be proved. In Jasun’s world, if there is no evidence of a crime then that is itself evidence that a crime was committed and successfully covered-up. It’s like having a theological conversation with the Mad Hatter.


Peter Levenda11:54 AM, November 07, 2016 wrote:

It reminds me of a “wandering bishop” I used to know. He lived in Toronto and had a publication in which he would report that certain other clergymen were now members of his own bogus church. When those clergymen objected, since they had never been members and didn’t even know the bishop, then the bishop would print another story in his publication saying that the clergymen were now excommunicated! He did this over and over again. And since it was in print, it must be true, right?

“When did you stop beating your wife?”

As for John Podesta, I met him once. Last year. During an interview session in which he was asked about UFO disclosure. What does that imply? The speculations are legion, of course. I’ve met a lot of people in my more than 60 years on the planet, from Nazis and Klansmen to “Satanists”, Buddhists, Daoists, Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic prelates, Chinese generals, Wiccans, Thelemites, FBI agents, CIA agents, KGB agents … the list is endless. It’s what I do. I research and investigate. I put myself out there to see what is going on. I learn to separate wheat from chaff (when possible), that is, information from disinformation and misinformation. If someone is going to speculate about any putative relationship between myself and John Podesta then it is only fair that they speculate about the other people I’ve met during my life -- beginning maybe with my gate-crashing of the Bobby Kennedy funeral when I was seventeen years old and a high school senior and thus obviously already a high-level agent of THRUSH or SPECTRE or SMERSH or something -- and build a more comprehensive (if probably equally erroneous) picture. Otherwise you’re only cherry-picking the facts to fit a preconceived conclusion. And that’s not good journalism or investigative reporting. It’s just spin. And haven’t we had enough spin lately?


Lawrence8:40 AM, November 08, 2016 wrote:

Levanda, well said. Thing is we live in a world where people care less for real scholarship now than they ever did, and as a whole they never did. Real scholarship paints a complex, ambiguous and multi-faceted picture of any and all things, and you have to do a lot of reading, research, employ critical thinking etc; and that doesn't fit the superficial and simplistic angel vs devil medieval lazy mode of emotional 'thinking' that predominates now probably more than it ever did; and so the scholarly material is simply dismissed, on a priori grounds as part of the establishment (or anti-establishment as the case may be) conspiracy.


The Secret Sun3:36 PM, November 08, 2016 wrote:

I'll weigh in here and put in the good word for Peter, who is always generous with his time and expertise and has done way more than his share when it comes to exposing high-level malfeasance. I know there's a belief that he's just a fox in the henhouse but be rational- players are out there playing. None of us have the reach or audience to make it worth some superspook bothering with us. Peter is a gentleman and a scholar and we should be grateful for his time, which he has given us way more than he needs to.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:35 pm

None of us have the reach or audience to make it worth some superspook bothering with us.


Makes sense. After all, Bennewitz was targeted because his blog reached so many people.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby guruilla » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:25 pm

There are so many logical fallacies that surround PL like a smoke cloud that I'm loath to go to go into them here. I consider this game over, job done, but I guess people just want to keep the game going even when the emperor's bollocks are wiggling in their faces. Too bad.

Just a few:

Did no one wonder how it was Peter Levenda showed up at CK's comments section the moment someone mentioned his name? I mean, like PL reads CK's comments section all the time, I am sure (not). So he was called in (by whoever), did some damage control by throwing the same old strawman augments about as before, added a personal attack on myself way beyond anything I'd said about him in vitriol levels, then capped it off with some weird mystification probable codespeak about a wandering bishop.

I can just imagine him saying to his handlers: "You have to let me ignore this shit otherwise it will never go away!" Or maybe he just got so pissed off & forgot his Jesuit training?

Question: how can someone who goes on & on ad nauseum about logical rigor be in bed with Strieber & call The Super Natural "a luminous work"? Who among us can square that circle?

Then there's the fact that apparently PL thinks it's OK to try & score argument points by deriding someone for believing they've suffered child abuse. These are "little things" (to some people); but they speak volumes to me.

As for CK(?)'s point, which Wombat rightly mocks, I cry BS 100%. PL has massive clout within the alternate perceptions community, as witnessed by how many people ignore the inconsistencies & contradictions and defend him, based I can only presume on their prior regard for him and his work. But what was Sinister Forces but a shopping list of facts knitted together with a fairly humdrum thesis that is now popular among culture-loving potheads? The books provide no real context for the material and take no firm position. They are the perfect "in" to the conspiracy culture for someone who is not what he seems to be.

Needless to say, I may be 100% wrong about PL, and all that's been revealed recently (besides his appalling taste in photo-buddies) is that he's human, erratic, and self-sabotaging. But someone's got to say the unsayable once in a while, otherwise nothing ever changes and the same tired old suspects carry on shoveling the shite for the rest of us to eat.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby Burnt Hill » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:37 pm

guruilla, could you be so kind to point me to where the following transaction took place,
as I am not seeing it ? -
Then there's the fact that apparently PL thinks it's OK to try & score argument points by deriding someone for believing they've suffered child abuse. These are "little things" (to some people); but they speak volumes to me

thanks..
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby tapitsbo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:44 pm

guruilla » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:25 pm wrote:There are so many logical fallacies that surround PL like a smoke cloud that I'm loath to go to go into them here. I consider this game over, job done, but I guess people just want to keep the game going even when the emperor's bollocks are wiggling in their faces. Too bad.

Just a few:

Did no one wonder how it was Peter Levenda showed up at CK's comments section the moment someone mentioned his name? I mean, like PL reads CK's comments section all the time, I am sure (not). So he was called in (by whoever), did some damage control by throwing the same old strawman augments about as before, added a personal attack on myself way beyond anything I'd said about him in vitriol levels, then capped it off with some weird mystification probable codespeak about a wandering bishop.

I can just imagine him saying to his handlers: "You have to let me ignore this shit otherwise it will never go away!" Or maybe he just got so pissed off & forgot his Jesuit training?

Question: how can someone who goes on & on ad nauseum about logical rigor be in bed with Strieber & call The Super Natural "a luminous work"? Who among us can square that circle?

Then there's the fact that apparently PL thinks it's OK to try & score argument points by deriding someone for believing they've suffered child abuse. These are "little things" (to some people); but they speak volumes to me.

As for CK(?)'s point, which Wombat rightly mocks, I cry BS 100%. PL has massive clout within the alternate perceptions community, as witnessed by how many people ignore the inconsistencies & contradictions and defend him, based I can only presume on their prior regard for him and his work. But what was Sinister Forces but a shopping list of facts knitted together with a fairly humdrum thesis that is now popular among culture-loving potheads? The books provide no real context for the material and take no firm position. They are the perfect "in" to the conspiracy culture for someone who is not what he seems to be.

Needless to say, I may be 100% wrong about PL, and all that's been revealed recently (besides his appalling taste in photo-buddies) is that he's human, erratic, and self-sabotaging. But someone's got to say the unsayable once in a while, otherwise nothing ever changes and the same tired old suspects carry on shoveling the shite for the rest of us to eat.


"Logical rigour" can often be code for "controlled narrative structure" as you know well I'm sure

What I've read of Levenda usually seemed to be made up of a collage vignettes that have a spooky/shocking component but juxtaposed as they are read like an esoteric commentary and justification of the establishment-funded takes that emphasize certain elements of the occult/Cold War/corruption but leave many connections gingerly untouched
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby brekin » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:49 pm

gurilla wrote:
I can just imagine him saying to his handlers: "You have to let me ignore this shit otherwise it will never go away!" Or maybe he just got so pissed off & forgot his Jesuit training?


Are you saying Levenda has actual handlers?

gurilla wrote:
Needless to say, I may be 100% wrong about PL, and all that's been revealed recently (besides his appalling taste in photo-buddies) is that he's human, erratic, and self-sabotaging. But someone's got to say the unsayable once in a while, otherwise nothing ever changes and the same tired old suspects carry on shoveling the shite for the rest of us to eat.


Yeah, "someone's got to say the unsayable once in a while, otherwise nothing ever changes and the same tired old suspects carry on shoveling the shite for the rest of us to eat."

Hey, kind of like Trump!
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby OP ED » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:51 pm

You've got to grab Satanism by the pussy.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

:: ::
S.H.C.R.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby guruilla » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:42 am

Peter Levenda has apparently "come out" as a former intelligence officer:

"He is also a member of AFIO (the Association of Former Intelligence Officers)"...


http://oneradionetwork.com/all-shows/pe ... er-28-2016

A little odd since he recently made a point of stating, after the pic of him & Podesta came out, that he had never belonged to the CIA or other agencies; I forget the exact wording but it was meant to indicate that he had never done intell. work....
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: "The Crowley 'Joke' & My Allergic Reaction to Occultism"

Postby Burnt Hill » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:17 pm

guruilla » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:42 am wrote:Peter Levenda has apparently "come out" as a former intelligence officer:

"He is also a member of AFIO (the Association of Former Intelligence Officers)"...


http://oneradionetwork.com/all-shows/pe ... er-28-2016

A little odd since he recently made a point of stating, after the pic of him & Podesta came out, that he had never belonged to the CIA or other agencies; I forget the exact wording but it was meant to indicate that he had never done intell. work....

Considering Levendas field of study, isn't that the exact type of group he would join to establish source connections.?
Anyone can join.
Intelligence background is optional.
75$ is all that really matters. Maybe buy a pin.
https://afio.formstack.com/forms/membersubscribe_form.
This "research" took 2 minutes and certainly matters when considering Levenda,
and disputes his having
"come out" as a former intelligence officer:


*This is the reason you meet resistance here guruilla, not because your field of inquiry is not worthy.
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