Ryan Dawson

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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:52 pm

"I'll let you do your own research" is understandable, certainly. But an RI-caliber discussion ABOUT research would do justice to the spirit of allowing questions to be asked, and to be answered.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:18 pm

tapitsbo » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:46 pm wrote:
brainpanhandler » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:40 am wrote:
divideandconquer » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:58 am wrote:I do not question the fact that a vast number (whether that number is one million or six million, who knows?)


The Nazis kept meticulous records. Tens of millions of documents exist recording their atrocities. We know, to a much greater degree of certainty than "give or take 5 million."


I do not feel qualified to evaluate this claim; what I do know is that I have been taught in university that understanding the holocaust requires a rejection of documentary evidence in favour of eyewitness testimony.

Part of the explanation for this was indeed a problem of missing or incomplete documentation - then there is the converse claim about meticulous records.

What is going on here? I certainly don't trust either the mainstream or "revisionist" narratives.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/fif ... 11983.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/revisiting- ... holocaust/

http://judaism.about.com/od/holocaust/a ... rolson.htm
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:23 pm

divideandconquer » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:23 am wrote:
And you have to admit that a common tactic of holocaust revisionists or any historical revisionists with an agenda to bury or obfuscate the truth is to innocently claim, "I'm just asking questions" as an opener and cry censorship at the slightest sign of a failure to patiently entertain them endlessly. It's a useful and partly successful tactic.

Why/how did this number, six million, become so sacred in the first place? It's as if they're baiting the anti-Semites so they can use it in their campaign to silence critics of Israeli policy. I mean, how many millions of native Americans were slaughtered? African Americans? Africans? Rwandans slaughtered in less than 100 days? Palestinians? Armenians? All clearly genocide, only some spread out over centuries. Yet, no hallowed number, or powerful political group using the questioning of that anointed number to justify accusations of racism in their campaign to silence critics of their nation's policies.
The debate over the actual number of jews murdered by the nazis, necessarily estimates, is in my experience often the thin end of a wedge used to create an opening for revisionists. When I see it I become imo justifiably suspicious.

Once again, why discredit, defame and silence those with opposing viewpoints or questions? When I see this, I become suspicious. If it's true, ask away...nothing to hide.


I said nothing about silencing anyone. Are you wanting to defend Zundel's right to write and publish whatever he wants?

I reserve the right to discredit and defame lying scumbags. I'm less certain about the tenuous argument that holocaust revisionism leads to more persecution.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not certain that the legal argument that holocaust revisionism leads to more persecution rises to the level of trumping free speech.
Last edited by brainpanhandler on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:28 pm

This is why it's curious that people are still being taught in university that there's "no documentation".

I guess for me the most bizarre part of the narrative about the Holocaust is all the stuff about the conquering Allies being shocked and surprised by all of the atrocities. Meanwhile it's obvious that massive segments of the Axis and Allied establishment were working together quite closely (or at the very least had thoroughly penetrated each other).
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:56 pm

tapitsbo » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:28 pm wrote:This is why it's curious that people are still being taught in university that there's "no documentation".

I guess for me the most bizarre part of the narrative about the Holocaust is all the stuff about the conquering Allies being shocked and surprised by all of the atrocities. Meanwhile it's obvious that massive segments of the Axis and Allied establishment were working together quite closely (or at the very least had thoroughly penetrated each other).


I'm guessing many of the stories of the Allies being shocked by the camps refer to people who would not have known what the people at the top would have known. But it's not surprising to me that the official account of the Allies would include the notion that they were shocked and surprised and therefore ignorant of the scale and outright horror of the nazi's genocidal machine. If it was known that the top command of the allies, military and civilian, knew what was going on well before anything was done about it then they would become complicit. Of course they are going to pretend they were shocked.

Not sure about university curriculum that teaches there is "no documentation". Until recently much of that documentation has been locked away, but it was known to exist. Toward the end of the war the nazi's obsession with documentation became more sporadic and they destroyed as much as they haphazardly could, but much of it remained and was captured by the allies. This was known and is a matter of historical record.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby divideandconquer » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:03 pm

brainpanhandler » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:23 pm wrote:
divideandconquer » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:23 am wrote:
And you have to admit that a common tactic of holocaust revisionists or any historical revisionists with an agenda to bury or obfuscate the truth is to innocently claim, "I'm just asking questions" as an opener and cry censorship at the slightest sign of a failure to patiently entertain them endlessly. It's a useful and partly successful tactic.

Why/how did this number, six million, become so sacred in the first place? It's as if they're baiting the anti-Semites so they can use it in their campaign to silence critics of Israeli policy. I mean, how many millions of native Americans were slaughtered? African Americans? Africans? Rwandans slaughtered in less than 100 days? Palestinians? Armenians? All clearly genocide, only some spread out over centuries. Yet, no hallowed number, or powerful political group using the questioning of that anointed number to justify accusations of racism in their campaign to silence critics of their nation's policies.
The debate over the actual number of jews murdered by the nazis, necessarily estimates, is in my experience often the thin end of a wedge used to create an opening for revisionists. When I see it I become imo justifiably suspicious.

Once again, why discredit, defame and silence those with opposing viewpoints or questions? When I see this, I become suspicious. If it's true, ask away...nothing to hide.


I said nothing about silencing anyone. Are you wanting to defend Zundel's right to write and publish whatever he wants?

I reserve the right to discredit and defame lying scumbags. I'm less certain about the tenuous argument that holocaust revisionism leads to more persecution.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say you were trying to silence anyone. I was referring to the Zionist's ongoing propaganda campaign to prevent honest discussion--even in private--when it comes to the subject of the Holocaust. They've trained us so well that we police ourselves--myself included up until the last couple of years. Now, I question everything I've learned from the lying, predatory, brainwashing establishment.
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:12 pm

divideandconquer » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:03 pm wrote: Now, I question everything I've learned from the lying, predatory, brainwashing establishment.


And well you should.

No matter how bad you think things are, they're worse. This is a truism I've adopted since it seems to bear out over and over and over.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby coffin_dodger » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:13 pm

bph said:
I reserve the right to discredit and defame lying scumbags


Is this 'right' to abuse and belittle anyone that disagrees with you (and The System) based on the truth that you proclaim to be in possession of?
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:16 pm

coffin_dodger » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:13 pm wrote:bph said:
I reserve the right to discredit and defame lying scumbags


Is this 'right' to abuse and belittle anyone that disagrees with you (and The System) based on the truth that you proclaim to be in possession of?


No.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby coffin_dodger » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:27 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:
coffin_dodger » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:13 pm wrote:bph said:
I reserve the right to discredit and defame lying scumbags


Is this 'right' to abuse and belittle anyone that disagrees with you (and The System) based on the truth that you proclaim to be in possession of?


No.


I know you find me awkward and infuriating, but I'm genuinely trying to understand why you consider anyone who questions the veracity of Holocaust numbers 'a lying scumbag'. If it's not based on the 'the truth' which you used as an explanation earlier, what is it based on?
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:30 pm

I meant lying scumbags of any type as a general principle.

You seek your truth as you see fit.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:17 pm

To be fair I don't see bph abusing or belittling.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:19 pm

tapitsbo » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:17 pm wrote:To be fair I don't see bph abusing or belittling.


Nor does anyone else, I think that's just coffin dodger's particular discursive style. This is no different than people disliking a book or movie, BPH is just clearly stating his assessment of the OP.

For instance, I personally feel, on the aesthetic level, that this shouldn't be grounds for a referendum on the nature of truth itself and a stark re-assessment on the damage socially constructed realities render unto History Itself, but that's just me! My fresh unique spin on current events.

Still, worth noting that one of the few ground rules here at RI -- interestingly enough! -- happens to specifically involve the subject of the Holocaust. Now, SLAD, as regular viewers will recall, did a pretty remarkable thread on how many "Holocausts" have happened in the past century alone, so it's worth stating that extends to famines, killing fields, and anything Belgium ever did: we're not down with denial of atrocity. Zundel has a fundamental right to free speech, and he is also, fundamentally, a human piece of turd.

I think a reasonable rule of thumb would be that as soon as you're discussing a single operation with a body count of more than four figures, squinting at the piles of corpses with a pocket calculator is pointless.

But you know, do you.
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby tapitsbo » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:42 pm

I'm definitely not interested in denying the genocide or putting death tolls under a magnifying glass.

The framing of narratives about 20th C. history is quite interesting though thank you!
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Re: Ryan Dawson

Postby BrandonD » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:06 am

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I do recall reading that 6 million is a number of significance in the Judaic religion. According to Judaic scriptures/Judaic authorities/some "official" religious source, the Jewish people cannot reclaim a nation of their own until 6 million of them have been killed, or something to that effect.

Once again, someone please correct me if I'm in error here.
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