Israel–Rabbis in Conflict Over Whether to Kill Wounded TerroristsSource
http://www.vosizneias.com/217484/2015/1 ... orningnewsIsrael – Several senior rabbis have raised a heated debate in the last few days over the approach in Jewish law toward a terrorist who has committed a terror attack but is subsequently wounded and incapacitated.
Earlier this week, prominent national-religious rabbi and chairman of the Tzohar rabbinical association, Rabbi David Stav, said that the nation was facing trying and difficult times but insisted that a terrorist who has committed an attack but has been wounded and therefore no longer represents a threat should not be further harmed.
“In these days in which the blood is boiling… it is important to preserve our moral superiority: [We must] not harm those who are not involved in murderous acts and we must not harm those who have already been neutralized and do not represent a threat,” the rabbi ruled.
Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu
Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, municipal chief rabbi of Safed, reacted to Stav’s comments, and said a terrorist who had committed murder should himself be killed.
“It is forbidden to leave a murderer alive,” Eliyahu told the Galei Yisrael radio station on Wednesday. He accused Tzohar rabbis of “forgetting Jewish law” and said “they are only interested in looking good to non-Jews.”
“Jewish law is clear… there are courts which can avenge blood and there are individuals who can avenge blood. This is the Jewish law, if the court does not avenge the blood then an individual can avenge the blood,” he added.
To “avenge blood” is a concept in Jewish law relating to the punishment for murder and manslaughter.
“We can’t think all day about what others are thinking about us,” the rabbi concluded.
Rabbi Ben Zion Mutzafi
Another senior rabbinical figure, prominent ultra-Orthodox arbiter of Jewish law Rabbi Ben-Tzion Mutzafi, was also fiercely critical of Stav’s approach.
According to the Srugim news website, Mutzafi was asked by his students whether, if a terrorist has been wounded and incapacitated, it is permitted according to Jewish law to kill him or not.
“It is commanded to take hold of his head and hit it against the ground until there is no longer any life in it,” Mutzafi responded.
“Do not listen to Stav, for the one who is merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful,” he added.
Rabbi Yaakov Ariel, municipal chief rabbi of Ramat Gan and one of the most senior national-religious leaders, has also waded into the debate.
He was asked in a question on the yeshiva.org website about the differing opinions voiced by the rabbis on the issue.
Ariel backed Stav’s initial comments, replying that when the terrorist still presents a danger it is permitted to kill him.
“If the danger has passed and the terrorist is restrained or injured, [people] must act wisely, judiciously and not through spontaneous emotion,” ruled Ariel.
“In Islam, the commandment to avenge blood is a big commandment, and there is no need to add fuel to the fire. Death does not necessarily deter since the one killed becomes a ‘shahid’ [martyr]. It needs to be evaluated with security experts.”
[comments from source article]
http://www.vosizneias.com/217484/2015/1 ... orningnewsRead Comments (30) — Post Yours »
Oct 15, 2015 at 09:36 AM
Danny Says:
No need for a political answer.
Lets ask Rav Chaim Shlita.
Oct 15, 2015 at 09:37 AM
mugsisme Says:
Did they not see the video this week of the bahama who got up more than once after being shot to try and kill again? Do they not know that many terrorists released for Gilad Shalit have gone on to murder more Jews?
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:00 AM
Anonymous Says:
Habu l'hurgechu
Oct 15, 2015 at 09:49 AM
HeshyEmes Says:
As there is at least a 20% chance that the terrorist will be released in some type of exchange or after serving his sentence, there is no justification whatsoever to allow him to live. Furthermore as these are Lonewolf attacks, there is no intelligence to be had from an interrogation. No Poisek could or would disagree. And if you read between the lines; it's what Rabbi Ariel says (He said "must act wisely... Not through emotion... Consult with security experts" He doesn't say "It's forbidden"). Of course one can't publicly announce that killing an incapacitated terrorist is acceptable and even mandated; because of the pathetic and phony liberals; but the maxim of ....כל המרחם על אכזררים definitely mandates killing a terrorist.
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:13 AM
CommonSense Says:
"Only looking good for non Jews?"
As if that's a bad thing??
There are countless halachos that are based on the concept of darkei shalom.
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:33 AM
anonymous Says:
The conflict is between our Rabbis and Zionist ones. In most halachah issues we do not rule according to the Zionist shita. Their understanding of halachah can be extreme opposite of what we follow.
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:37 AM
Anonymous Says:
the only rabbi they should be seeking a psak from is Rabbi Meir Kahane, hy"d
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM
BuckyinWisconsin Says:
Kill them all. Period. Always shoot for center body mass and then double tap when they are down.
Oct 15, 2015 at 10:46 AM
czyrankevic Says:
if he is wounded dont kill let him die by himself
Oct 15, 2015 at 11:02 AM
Esther Says:
Don't wound them;make sure they're good and dead.
Oct 15, 2015 at 11:10 AM
anonymous Says:
Reply to #5
CommonSense Says:
“ "Only looking good for non Jews?"
As if that's a bad thing??
There are countless halachos that are based on the concept of darkei shalom. ”
Darkei shalom with non Jews of course but not with animals. Quite a big difference. Dangerous animals must be killed, no questions asked - and certainly not treated in the same hospitals as their victims. There are veterinary hospitals for animals and that's where wounded terrorists should be taken.
If we follow Chazal we don't go wrong. Chazal tell us, "If someone comes to kill you, get up to kill him first."
And Chazal also say "One who has mercy on the cruel, will end up being cruel to the merciful". Boy has this Chazal been proven right in Israel.
Oct 15, 2015 at 11:48 AM
anonymous Says:
“ the only rabbi they should be seeking a psak from is Rabbi Meir Kahane, hy"d ”
LOL! Double thumbs up! For posts like this we need the 'Like' option.
Oct 15, 2015 at 11:58 AM
Lawyer Says:
On the surface what R. Stav says makes sense. If someone is threatening you, you can defend yourself, even if you need to kill him. Once he is incapacitated, then you have to stop and turn him over to the authorities. That is the law in most civilized countries.
The problem is, that if you turn over terrorists to the Israeli authorities, they will get a cushy sentence and then be traded 1000 to 1 for some Israeli, like Gilad Shalit, or released as a "good will gesture" as a result of pressure from the US and other do- gooders looking to get a Nobel Peace Prize. Then they will recycle and commit more acts of terrorism.
If Israel imposed the death penalty for terrorists, then yes, turn them over. Right now that is not the case. Where the govt. refuses to meet out justice, the citizenry is forced to do so.
(BTW, the concept of goel ha dam has no application here. That applies only where someone has killed, not merely tried to kill.)
Oct 15, 2015 at 11:59 AM
Mayer Says:
Reply to #9
czyrankevic Says:
“ if he is wounded dont kill let him die by himself ”
But they don't do that. They waste fortunes of money donated by people like you and me to AMDA picking up these animals and rushing them to hospitals where they waste even more money treating them. Best thing to do is go pop pop and put them in a black garbage bag then let the municipal dog collectors take them away.
Oct 15, 2015 at 12:07 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #2
mugsisme Says:
“ Did they not see the video this week of the bahama who got up more than once after being shot to try and kill again? Do they not know that many terrorists released for Gilad Shalit have gone on to murder more Jews? ”
In the instance you are referring to, the offender was still trying to carry out his attack. The debate does not discuss situations such as that, only when the offender has been effectively incapacitated.
Oct 15, 2015 at 12:11 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #2
mugsisme Says:
“ Did they not see the video this week of the bahama who got up more than once after being shot to try and kill again? Do they not know that many terrorists released for Gilad Shalit have gone on to murder more Jews? ”
Even if as R Eliyahu and Mutsapi say, the terrorist should be given the death penalty, that is only through a court (Beis Din) ruling, not vigilante-style. Such methods have no place at all in the Jewish psyche.
However, only a fool (or bad shot) would merely incapacitate the terrorist. One should definitely shoot to kill - but not like the soldiers at Shechem Gate, who missed and nearly killed their comrade!
Oct 15, 2015 at 12:26 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #7
Anonymous Says:
“ the only rabbi they should be seeking a psak from is Rabbi Meir Kahane, hy"d ”
You are 1000% correct! Had Yidden listened and heeded the words of the Tzaddik many Yiddishe Neshamas would not have been lost! Yidden do not make the mistake of voting for the anti-semite Hilary Clinton, if you think the Cushi is bad, she is a 1000 times worse. Donald Trump, a friend of Israel and the Jews. The only possibility to speak the what needs to be heard.
Oct 15, 2015 at 01:01 PM
yankee96 Says:
#8 knows what he is talking about and how to handle these savages
Do you want to teach Israelis how to handle it ?
I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers who will fund your trip,as soon you are ready
Oct 15, 2015 at 01:16 PM
Anominous Says:
Blind them and a blind man is like a dead man, and a burden for the rest of them, and a proof that it isn't worth it to fight us.
Oct 15, 2015 at 02:19 PM
anonymous Says:
Reply to #14
Mayer Says:
“ But they don't do that. They waste fortunes of money donated by people like you and me to AMDA picking up these animals and rushing them to hospitals where they waste even more money treating them. Best thing to do is go pop pop and put them in a black garbage bag then let the municipal dog collectors take them away. ”
Zaka indeed uses black garbage bags for terrorists. These garbage bags should be made from pig skin. Then they'd platz.
Oct 15, 2015 at 02:26 PM
favish Says:
Reply to #16
Anonymous Says:
“ Even if as R Eliyahu and Mutsapi say, the terrorist should be given the death penalty, that is only through a court (Beis Din) ruling, not vigilante-style. Such methods have no place at all in the Jewish psyche.
However, only a fool (or bad shot) would merely incapacitate the terrorist. One should definitely shoot to kill - but not like the soldiers at Shechem Gate, who missed and nearly killed their comrade! ”
did you ever hear of the concept of 'goal hadom'?
Oct 15, 2015 at 03:18 PM
MarkTwain2 Says:
Once wounded, just dress them with yarmulke and tzitzis. Duct tape over mouth with fake Charedi beard. Then drop them off in West Bank. Their brothers will "take care" of them.
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:18 PM
Anonymous Says:
How can you assume they are "no longer a threat?!" After Israel gives the terrorists medical care, and they recover, and go back out to the street to kill more Jews because we idiots let them live, then what?????
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:19 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #4
HeshyEmes Says:
“ As there is at least a 20% chance that the terrorist will be released in some type of exchange or after serving his sentence, there is no justification whatsoever to allow him to live. Furthermore as these are Lonewolf attacks, there is no intelligence to be had from an interrogation. No Poisek could or would disagree. And if you read between the lines; it's what Rabbi Ariel says (He said "must act wisely... Not through emotion... Consult with security experts" He doesn't say "It's forbidden"). Of course one can't publicly announce that killing an incapacitated terrorist is acceptable and even mandated; because of the pathetic and phony liberals; but the maxim of ....כל המרחם על אכזררים definitely mandates killing a terrorist. ”
What about this new phenomenon of so called "children" killing Israelis ?! They will never serve a day in prison! They must be eliminated as soon as they make a move of terror!
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:21 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #7
Anonymous Says:
“ the only rabbi they should be seeking a psak from is Rabbi Meir Kahane, hy"d ”
Amen!
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:22 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #9
czyrankevic Says:
“ if he is wounded dont kill let him die by himself ”
Ignorant. You've seen too many times how these monsters get up, even after being wounded, and no doubt try killing again!
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:26 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #13
Lawyer Says:
“ On the surface what R. Stav says makes sense. If someone is threatening you, you can defend yourself, even if you need to kill him. Once he is incapacitated, then you have to stop and turn him over to the authorities. That is the law in most civilized countries."
The problem is, that if you turn over terrorists to the Israeli authorities, they will get a cushy sentence and then be traded 1000 to 1 for some Israeli, like Gilad Shalit, or released as a "good will gesture" as a result of pressure from the US and other do- gooders looking to get a Nobel Peace Prize. Then they will recycle and commit more acts of terrorism. If Israel imposed the death penalty for terrorists, then yes, turn them over. Right now that is not the case. Where the govt. refuses to meet out justice, the citizenry is forced to do so. (BTW, the concept of goel ha dam has no application here. That applies only where someone has killed, not merely tried to kill.) ”
And what about these young vermin punks who have become terrorists? Do you really think Israel will make minors serve one day in jail???
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:27 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #16
Anonymous Says:
“ Even if as R Eliyahu and Mutsapi say, the terrorist should be given the death penalty, that is only through a court (Beis Din) ruling, not vigilante-style. Such methods have no place at all in the Jewish psyche."
However, only a fool (or bad shot) would merely incapacitate the terrorist. One should definitely shoot to kill - but not like the soldiers at Shechem Gate, who missed and nearly killed their comrade! ”
Please,,,, hVent u seen all the videos this week of the terror attacks in which the terrorists get up after being shot and try killing again?! Shoot to kill indeed! Anything less endangers more Israeli lives!
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:29 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #19
Anominous Says:
“ Blind them and a blind man is like a dead man, and a burden for the rest of them, and a proof that it isn't worth it to fight us. ”
And the blind one can't continue to shoot?
Oct 15, 2015 at 05:24 PM
Anonymous Says:
Reply to #11
anonymous Says:
“ Darkei shalom with non Jews of course but not with animals. Quite a big difference. Dangerous animals must be killed, no questions asked - and certainly not treated in the same hospitals as their victims. There are veterinary hospitals for animals and that's where wounded terrorists should be taken. If we follow Chazal we don't go wrong. Chazal tell us, "If someone comes to kill you, get up to kill him first."
And Chazal also say "One who has mercy on the cruel, will end up being cruel to the merciful". Boy has this Chazal been proven right in Israel. ”
I agree with all you said, except one thing: treating the savages at veterinary hospitals. Animals are not in the same category as these inhuman savages! Animals are kind in nature, take care of their offspring, unlike these vermin who send their bike filthy children out to kill Jews and celebrate when they're killed in the process ! Let them be tested on,y by their own brethren!