Which gender are you?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Which gender are you?

Female
8
14%
Male
37
66%
Alchemical Androgyne
5
9%
None of your business
3
5%
It's complicated
1
2%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes : 56

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:37 pm

Judith Butler is a well-recognized theorist in these matters and these may be of interest:


http://artsites.ucsc.edu/faculty/gustaf ... ndout.doc/

Judith Butler and Performativity for Beginners (mostly in her own words)
Film 165A

1. A central concept of the theory is that your gender is constructed through your own repetitive performance of gender. This is related to the idea that discourse creates subject positions for your self to occupy—linguistic structures construct the self. The structure or discourse of gender for Butler, however, is bodily and nonverbal. Butler’s theory does not accept stable and coherent gender identity. Gender is “a stylized repetition of acts . . . which are internally discontinuous . . .[so that] the appearance of substance is precisely that, a constructed identity, a performative accomplishment which the mundane social audience, including the actors themselves, come to believe and to perform in the mode of belief” (Gender Trouble). To say that gender is performative is to argue that gender is “real only to the extent that it is performed” (Gender Trouble).

2. There is no self preceding or outside a gendered self. Butler writes, “ . . . if gender is constructed, it is not necessarily constructed by an ‘I’ or a ‘we’ who stands before that construction in any spatial or temporal sense of ‘before.’ Indeed, it is unclear that there can be an ‘I’ or a “we” who had not been submitted, subjected to gender, where gendering is, among other things, the differentiating relations by which speaking subjects come into being . . . the ‘I’ neither precedes nor follows the process of this gendering, but emerges only within the matrix of gender relations themselves” (Bodies that Matter).

3. Performativity of gender is a stylized repetition of acts, an imitation or miming of the dominant conventions of gender. Butler argues that “the act that one does, the act that one performs is, in a sense, an act that’s been going on before one arrived on the scene” (Gender Trouble). “Gender is an impersonation . . . becoming gendered involves impersonating an ideal that nobody actually inhabits” (interview with Liz Kotz in Artforum).

4. Biological sex is also a social construction—gender subsumes sex. “According to this view, then, the social construction of the natural presupposes the cancellation of the natural by the social. Insofar as it relies on this construal, the sex/gender distinction founders . . . if gender is the social significance that sex assumes within a given culture . . . then what, if anything, is left of ‘sex’ once it has assumed its social character as gender? . . . If gender consists of the social meanings that sex assumes, then sex does not accrue social meanings as additive properties, but rather is replaced by the social meanings it takes on; sex is relinquished in the course of that assumption, and gender emerges, not as a term in a continued relationship of opposition to sex, but as the term which absorbs and displaces “sex” (Bodies that Matter). Butler also writes “I think for a woman to identify as a woman is a culturally enforced effect. I don’t think that it’s a given that on the basis of a given anatomy, an identification will follow. I think that ‘coherent identification’ has to be cultivated, policed, and enforced; and that the violation of that has to be punished, usually through shame” (interview with Liz Kotz in Artforum).

5. What is at stake in gender roles is the ideology of heterosexuality. “To claim that all gender is like drag, or is drag, is to suggest that ‘imitation’ is at the heart of the heterosexual project and its gender binarism, that drag is not a secondary imitation that presupposes a prior and original gender, but that hegemonic heterosexuality is itself a constant and repeated effort to imitate its own idealizations. That it must repeat this imitation, that it sets up pathologizing practices and normalizing sciences in order to produce and consecrate its own claim on originality and propriety, suggests that heterosexual performativity is beset by an anxiety that it can never fully overcome….that its effort to become its own idealizations can never be finally or fully achieved, and that it is constantly haunted by that domain of sexual possibility that must be excluded for heterosexualized gender to produce itself” (Bodies that Matter).

6. Performativity of Gender (drag) can be subversive. “Drag is subversive to the extent that it reflects on the imitative structure by which hegemonic gender is itself produced and disputes heterosexuality’s claim on naturalness and originality” (Bodies that Matter).

7. But subversion through performance isn’t automatic or easy. Indeed, Butler complains that people have misread her book Gender Trouble. “The bad reading goes something like this: I can get up in the morning, look in my closet, and decide which gender I want to be today. I can take out a piece of clothing and change my gender, stylize it, and then that evening I can change it again and be something radically other, so that what you get is something like the comodification of gender, and the understanding of taking on a gender as a kind of consumerism. . . . [treating] gender deliberately, as if it’s an object out there, when my whole point was that the very formation of subjects, the very formation of persons, presupposes gender in a certain way—that gender is not to be chosen and that ‘performativity’ is not radical choice and its not voluntarism . . . Performativity has to do with repetition, very often the repetition of oppressive and painful gender norms . . . This is not freedom, but a question of how to work the trap that one is inevitably in” (interview with Liz Kotz in Artforum). Butler also writes that “it seems to me that there is no easy way to know whether something is subversive. Subversiveness is not something that can be gauged or calculated . . . I do think that for a copy to be subversive of heterosexual hegemony it has to both mime and displace its conventions” (interview with Liz Kotz in Artforum).
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Elvis » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:00 pm

semper occultus » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:44 pm wrote:
Elvis » 18 Nov 2015 23:10 wrote:hey I'm not on that list!


....the poll list or Project Willow's long-form version...?


Willow's list. :starz:
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Project Willow » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:05 pm

Agent Orange Cooper » 18 Nov 2015 17:27 wrote:This is such a deep, dark rabbit hole that it's hard to even know where begin talking about it. Mark me down as sympathetic to the radfem position that the entire concept of 'gender' is a patriarchal control-mechanism. It doesn't actually exist. While sex exists, gender is imaginary.

To quote a friend, "transgenderism is the trojan horse of patriarchy." It's entirely based around the total denial of basic biological facts, such as sexual dimorphism in mammals, not to mention normalizing mental illness. It's a War on Women, who are the sworn enemy of most MtFs. Women are quickly being forced to give up all notions that they have a right to women-only spaces (like public restrooms), because it makes the transwomen (who are actually a very loud but very tiny minority) feel bad. Oh, and ladies, you can forget about talking about things like menstruation or your genitalia in public anymore. Because, to quote a relevant meme, "men's feels trump women's lived reality." It's like we never left the 19th century.

It's also a war on homosexuality (and especially lesbians, who already have it rough). Where once a boy who liked to play with Barbie's might have been assumed to be gay, now they are assumed to be actually a woman. It's actually completely insane when you examine it closely. War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Penis is Female.


Beautifully put, and welcome to RI!
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby DrEvil » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:26 pm

backtoiam said:

Tearing down masculinity gets rid of any potential capable warrior, that is capable of defending the community against elite aggression.


Yes, absolutely. We need strong manly men in shining armor to protect the womenfolk (and all those useless homos) from the nasty nobles.

backtoiam also said:

That is in the past. Obviously progress has been made. Nobody is getting burned at the stake for their sexual preference. There may some small tribal enclaves in remote parts of the world where this still happens but i'm sure they will get some "democracy" to cure that, and steal all their natural resources.


Ignorance is bliss: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_righ ... _territory

As of July 2015, eighteen countries, most of them located in the Americas and Western Europe, recognize same-sex marriage and grant most of (if not all) the other rights listed above to its LGBT citizens.


As of July 2015, seventy two countries as well as five sub-national jurisdictions have laws criminalizing homosexuality, most of them are located in Asia and Africa.


Five countries have the death penalty.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 55338.html
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:52 pm

DrEvil » 18 Nov 2015 18:26 wrote:
backtoiam said:

Tearing down masculinity gets rid of any potential capable warrior, that is capable of defending the community against elite aggression.


Yes, absolutely. We need strong manly men in shining armor to protect the womenfolk (and all those useless homos) from the nasty nobles.

backtoiam also said:

That is in the past. Obviously progress has been made. Nobody is getting burned at the stake for their sexual preference. There may some small tribal enclaves in remote parts of the world where this still happens but i'm sure they will get some "democracy" to cure that, and steal all their natural resources.


Ignorance is bliss: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_righ ... _territory

As of July 2015, eighteen countries, most of them located in the Americas and Western Europe, recognize same-sex marriage and grant most of (if not all) the other rights listed above to its LGBT citizens.


As of July 2015, seventy two countries as well as five sub-national jurisdictions have laws criminalizing homosexuality, most of them are located in Asia and Africa.


Five countries have the death penalty.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 55338.html

As a male homosexual, I have no problem extolling the virtues of masculinity. Which are many. (Unfortunately, I apparently need to clarify that I also believe there are many virtues of femininity.)

Look how many men in this thread are apologizing for being male. Do you really hate yourself that much?
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby guruilla » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:19 pm

slomo » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:52 pm wrote:Look how many men in this thread are apologizing for being male. Do you really hate yourself that much?

I must have missed that.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:23 pm

Exhibit A: "Male, here. I had no say in the matter."

You can try to find some alternate interpretation, but the simplest one is that of an apology.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby guruilla » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:42 pm

I read it as a statement of fact, but you may be right that there is a slight hang-dogginess about it.

I think sexual shame is one thing that is truly transgender.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby backtoiam » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:57 pm

slomo wrote
As a male homosexual, I have no problem extolling the virtues of masculinity. Which are many. (Unfortunately, I apparently need to clarify that I also believe there are many virtues of femininity.)

Look how many men in this thread are apologizing for being male. Do you really hate yourself that much?


I need to back up and let slomo get this one. Get it slomo, thank you.... :praybow



backtoiam said:

Tearing down masculinity gets rid of any potential capable warrior, that is capable of defending the community against elite aggression.



dr evil wrote
Yes, absolutely. We need strong manly men in shining armor to protect the womenfolk (and all those useless homos) from the nasty nobles.


You are not on my menu today Mr. Evil, since you already beat yourself up so good. I could not do any better than you already did to yourself.

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I have no interest in this thread, but watching idiocy dance with itself is a pleasure every now and then. Please continue...this sort of wisdom doesn't come around often...

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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:04 am

I'm not gonna go full Red Pill and poop on womankind. I hope it's obvious that I don't lean in that direction.

However, it seems obvious to me that there are biological determinants of behavior such that women's personalities tend to cluster around one set of traits while men's personalities tend to cluster around another. With a great deal of variation across actual individuals. Both sets of traits are good and necessary when functioning harmoniously within a psyche and across individuals of both genders. Both sets are destructive when taken to dysfunctional and narcissistic extremes.

In the early 21st Century, the pendulum has swung very far in the direction of diminishing the contributions men (and especially fathers) make to society. To the degree that many men feel they need to apologize for masculinity. Fine: apologize for its toxic varieties. But don't apologize for functional masculinity: the father that navigates his adolescent children around life-destroying hazards, the mentor that protects and advocates for the careers of his protegees, the commander that protects the soldiers entrusted to his leadership. Of course women are capable of doing these things too, but when they do, they are acting in capacities that are traditionally thought of as masculine.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brekin » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:09 am

slomo » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:04 am wrote:I'm not gonna go full Red Pill and poop on womankind. I hope it's obvious that I don't lean in that direction.

However, it seems obvious to me that there are biological determinants of behavior such that women's personalities tend to cluster around one set of traits while men's personalities tend to cluster around another. With a great deal of variation across actual individuals. Both sets of traits are good and necessary when functioning harmoniously within a psyche and across individuals of both genders. Both sets are destructive when taken to dysfunctional and narcissistic extremes.

In the early 21st Century, the pendulum has swung very far in the direction of diminishing the contributions men (and especially fathers) make to society. To the degree that many men feel they need to apologize for masculinity. Fine: apologize for its toxic varieties. But don't apologize for functional masculinity: the father that navigates his adolescent children around life-destroying hazards, the mentor that protects and advocates for the careers of his protegees, the commander that protects the soldiers entrusted to his leadership. Of course women are capable of doing these things too, but when they do, they are acting in capacities that are traditionally thought of as masculine.


I feel you bro. Threads like this though have a very progressive way of trying to suss out those who aren't as progressive as many would like to believe their inner Gandhi idealized selves are. Refer to the Rene Gerard thread to see where it all leads to. Keep your head down and don't make any sudden moves. A white male's blood is needed to cleanse us of our own trespasses.

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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby guruilla » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:28 am

Lot of sanity in those last two posts. And they balanced each other out, too, like day & night. :thumbsup
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby coffin_dodger » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:47 am

slomo » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:23 am wrote:Exhibit A: "Male, here. I had no say in the matter."

You can try to find some alternate interpretation, but the simplest one is that of an apology.


Simplest is best.

But...

It's a question of trying to 'fit in'. Exclusively, (as it happens), here at RI.

Out in RL, I stayed home to look after my children. Twenty five years ago, my wife and I decided, before the first conception, that we wanted a parent, at home, available to our children whenever they needed us. She is far better at playing The System Game than I and capable of earning a far higher wage. Long term, it has ruined us financially, incited ire from family - but my children have never spent time in the company of someone who is paid to care for them. Consequently, as a male, I have a relationship with my children that has surpassed my wildest hopes and aspirations. And our children, even though having been starved of their mum for 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, have that special bond between a mother and child - unbroken, forgiving, loving.

My wife and I played role reversal - and in many peoples' eyes, we are fucking losers. But when we hold hands and look into one anothers eyes, we know we fucking won.

I am a male. I was born this way. I had no say in the matter. But fuck that.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby yathrib » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:15 pm

I don't understand how these advanced thinkers who reject all the claims of idealistic metaphysics--much less traditional religion--can hear someone postulate the existence of a magical gender essence independent of both biology and socialization, and say "Sounds legit!"
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby divideandconquer » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:58 pm

Yes, absolutely. We need strong manly men in shining armor to protect the womenfolk (and all those useless homos) from the nasty nobles.


You know, homosexual men can be strong manly men, right? Many of the early Nazis, the Brown Shirts, were super macho homosexual men who despised effeminacy. That's just one very nasty example, but there are many more positive examples as well.

Gay and the epitome of masculine.
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And what about our attraction to one gender over the other gender? In most people, it's hard-wired. If not, why do so many gay men struggle with coming out? If gender doesn't matter, why not switch your attraction to the gender that's more socially acceptable? If it's just masculinity they're attracted to, why not go for masculine women? Because they can't! How can that be if gender doesn't exist? Sure, there are people who are attracted to both, but they're in the minority.

Just because a very small minority do not feel comfortable with the gender they've been biologically assigned doesn't mean gender doesn't exist and homosexuality, if anything, proves the existence of gender. Not the other way around.
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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