Masculinities of the far right

[jakell]

I looked up Boyd Rice on Stormfart (ha) and someone was on there claiming to know him and claiming that he was a WN and a didn't like women 'cept as fucktoys.

I don't think its the people, but its the ideas. The issue is obvious physical violence against women. Roosh doesn't like it, well so he says, but the others seem to revel in it. None the less its easy to see Roosh as a bit of a gateway drug.

A gateway drug to what though... more stupidity?

I think the tendency to throw people into classifications of good/bad is extremely compelling in humans and doesn't serve us, it forces us to make poor judgements in the final analysis
Here we have seen something that has been played out here all too much, the equations go.. Roosh =bad, Nazis=bad, therefore Roosh =Nazi, a formula that has been used to suggest that some RI members are crypto fascists.

As you asked, here's a bit more on what I meant by practical anti-fascism. even though I've written a fair bit on this, it does no harm to revisit it.
In the world of ideas, it's very easy to get carried away and end up dragging every concept that occurs into the arena, even though this can be fun (intuition), it's not very rigorous, and at some point we might decide we need some sort of yardstick, and the yardstick I use is that of utility, or practicality

There is no absolute measure of what is useful, the yardstick is personal, there's nothing wrong with this though as long as you state your criteria, to talk of things being absolute gets us into all sort of misconceptions and we're back to square one. My own personal (tried and tested) criteria is to strip away as much extraneous material as possible, and this means not including those things that seem to occupy a grey area, the test of this being when one actually enters into confrontation (the 'anti' bit) and moves it towards an actual conclusion.

[Sounder]

All good Joe.

In part because the definition of masculinity that side of politics promotes is one where the strong are actually scared of the weak and react violently to them as a result.

Certainly true, it is disgusting how much enabling and acting out of these sexist and xenophobic sentiments there still is in our societies.

However it may also be that the strong are mostly scared that the 'weak' might realize that they are not at all weak. Hence the constant reinforcement of notions that require large institutional actors to 'handle' complex situations.

(These are embedded into much so called 'anti-establishment' propaganda.)

This is our dominant narrative; the public needs the guidance of the expert class to save themselves from themselves.

Lowkey says it well for me,' it's the substance within, not the color of your skin.'

Lowkey is looking further up the causal chain.

[Joe Hillshoist]

A gateway drug to what though... more stupidity?

Yes I spose that's a perfect description.

I think the tendency to throw people into classifications of good/bad is extremely compelling in humans and doesn't serve us, it forces us to make poor judgements in the final analysis
Here we have seen something that has been played out here all too much, the equations go.. Roosh =bad, Nazis=bad, therefore Roosh =Nazi, a formula that has been used to suggest that some RI members are crypto fascists.

Whatever - the consequences of peoples actions are what bother me these days. Someone you don't know suggesting you're a crypto fascist on a message is hardly a bfd. Unless you are and have an agenda you want to keep secret. Even so bfd. By now no one is gonna believe AD anyway.

As you asked, here's a bit more on what I meant by practical anti-fascism. even though I've written a fair bit on this, it does no harm to revisit it.
In the world of ideas, it's very easy to get carried away and end up dragging every concept that occurs into the arena, even though this can be fun (intuition), it's not very rigorous, and at some point we might decide we need some sort of yardstick, and the yardstick I use is that of utility, or practicality

There is no absolute measure of what is useful, the yardstick is personal, there's nothing wrong with this though as long as you state your criteria, to talk of things being absolute gets us into all sort of misconceptions and we're back to square one. My own personal (tried and tested) criteria is to strip away as much extraneous material as possible, and this means not including those things that seem to occupy a grey area, the test of this being when one actually enters into confrontation (the 'anti' bit) and moves it towards an actual conclusion.

So what is your definition of practical anti fascism? Train hard, learn how to hit pressure points, find out where the bastards live?

[Joe Hillshoist]

All good Joe.

In part because the definition of masculinity that side of politics promotes is one where the strong are actually scared of the weak and react violently to them as a result.

Certainly true, it is disgusting how much enabling and acting out of these sexist and xenophobic sentiments there still is in our societies.

However it may also be that the strong are mostly scared that the 'weak' might realize that they are not at all weak. Hence the constant reinforcement of notions that require large institutional actors to 'handle' complex situations.

(These are embedded into much so called 'anti-establishment' propaganda.)

This is our dominant narrative; the public needs the guidance of the expert class to save themselves from themselves.

Lowkey says it well for me,' it's the substance within, not the color of your skin.'

Lowkey is looking further up the causal chain.

Yeah i like Lowkey. Cheers.

[jakell]

So what is your definition of practical anti fascism? Train hard, learn how to hit pressure points, find out where the bastards live?

Not bad, I'm a oldish guy nowadays though and my days of street scuffles are over. The advances in the far right nowadays seem to mainly rest upon ideological foundations, and I didn't see many of these back in the day, nothing more that extended sloganising anyway

I'd suggest additions to your list might be psychological preparation, proper target identification, anger management (or rather the discipline and focus of it), adaptability, de-escalation and reflection. and a few more as the physical world brings it's own set of circumstances and consequences.

[Wombaticus Rex]

"Practical Anti Fascism" - start a business, hire people to work for you, pay them well, give them good benefits.

[jakell]

"Practical Anti Fascism" - start a business, hire people to work for you, pay them well, give them good benefits.

There's as many possibilities as the imagination allows as we are in an imaginary realm (ie, online), but the constant repetition of that rule when I landed here properly a couple of years ago made me think about it a bit more seriously, because the phrase does get thrown around pretty carelessly.

I decided that anti-fascism describes an activity, something dynamic and not merely a state of mind or set of personal preferences that makes the phrase so watered-down. To even exist it unfortunately requires fascism as a prerequisite (hence a certain amount of invention on the part of some)
So, what can we have in it's place, especially as folks seem rather attached to it? I decided that 'non-fascist' describes RI and most people just as well, but without the pretensions.

[Joe Hillshoist]

"Practical Anti Fascism" - start a business, hire people to work for you, pay them well, give them good benefits.

Yes that is a good one.

[Belligerent Savant]

"Practical Anti Fascism" - start a business, hire people to work for you, pay them well, give them good benefits.

Yes that is a good one.

Indeed.

...and the return of pension (for non-city/govt workers), and caps on exec pay along with an increase in minimum wage, and...

[jakell]

"Practical Anti Fascism" - start a business, hire people to work for you, pay them well, give them good benefits.

Yes that is a good one.

Indeed.

...and the return of pension (for non-city/govt workers), and caps on exec pay along with an increase in minimum wage, and...

As I've been been drawing some fairly crude lines to delineate the field, I'll also point out that the above, and a million more similar ones, are preventative measures, they aren't 'anti' anything.
They're also pretty wishful and play into the progressive fairly tale that if we were to stop the world, re-arrange things and their relationships to each other (plus people's attitudes while we still have one of our three wishes left) and then start the world back up, then the darkness will not come (again).

I tend to assume that the darkness is not so easily rebuffed.

[Wombaticus Rex]

They're also pretty wishful and play into the progressive fairly tale that if we were to stop the world, re-arrange things and their relationships to each other (plus people's attitudes while we still have one of our three wishes left) and then start the world back up, then the darkness will not come (again).

I tend to assume that the darkness is not so easily rebuffed.

An appropriate response, since whenever I propose that formula to my actual Anti-Fa/Prog friends, they generally call me names that involve the Koch Brothers. The notion that capitalism could provide for working people -- the nerve!

What part of giving people jobs so they can raise families bears any resemblance to that "stop the world, re-arrange things and their relationships to each other" mantra? I thought I was being a fuckin' conservative over here, daug!

[jakell]

As I've been been drawing some fairly crude lines to delineate the field, I'll also point out that the above, and a million more similar ones, are preventative measures, they aren't 'anti' anything.
They're also pretty wishful and play into the progressive fairly tale that if we were to stop the world, re-arrange things and their relationships to each other (plus people's attitudes while we still have one of our three wishes left) and then start the world back up, then the darkness will not come (again).

I tend to assume that the darkness is not so easily rebuffed.

An appropriate response, since whenever I propose that formula to my actual Anti-Fa/Prog friends, they generally call me names that involve the Koch Brothers. The notion that capitalism could provide for working people -- the nerve!

What part of giving people jobs so they can raise families bears any resemblance to that "stop the world, re-arrange things and their relationships to each other" mantra? I thought I was being a fuckin' conservative over here, daug!

Granted I was overreaching a bit with that last part, which is why I used the phrase 'plays into', ie it is others who have the fantasy .

I'm really continuing the thrust of nailing down the phrase 'anti-fascism' (a vastly overused one here over the last couple of years) and what you described is not anti anything, it is pro something else. The fantasy of some is that one can be an anti-fascist by simply being a good teacher/storekeeper/manager/parent/nurse etc. It's the misuse of the phrase, and it is the watering down of it I object to.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Well, I can definitely respect an aversion to dumbing down our precious nouns. (No sarcasm!)

What I'm saying is that whole "pro something else" traditionalist bullshit is the only effective means available if you want to rebuff that darkness. Re-build a high-trust society. I watched one get destroyed up here in Vermont; doesn't take long to turn farm-raised Yankees into the same flavor of wary, weary asshole that's been such a hit in The Lesser 49.

Since you're not going to identify and exterminate your enemy -- that's gonna be a problematic approach, innit? -- you're better served by not engaging at all. I think we've both gotten off a half-dozen riffs in the past month about how much "Anti-Fa" advocacy is doing little more than provide free advertisement for, well, Fa. Conflict is a generative dynamic that dictates roles to participants.

"How does this end?"
"More of the same, like always."

[Belligerent Savant]

.

(removed misplaced rant)

[jakell]

Well, I can definitely respect an aversion to dumbing down our precious nouns. (No sarcasm!)

What I'm saying is that whole "pro something else" traditionalist bullshit is the only effective means available if you want to rebuff that darkness. Re-build a high-trust society. I watched one get destroyed up here in Vermont; doesn't take long to turn farm-raised Yankees into the same flavor of wary, weary asshole that's been such a hit in The Lesser 49.

Since you're not going to identify and exterminate your enemy -- that's gonna be a problematic approach, innit? -- you're better served by not engaging at all. I think we've both gotten off a half-dozen riffs in the past month about how much "Anti-Fa" advocacy is doing little more than provide free advertisement for, well, Fa. Conflict is a generative dynamic that dictates roles to participants.

"How does this end?"
"More of the same, like always."

Even though notions like extermination do seem to crop up regularly in 'anti' circles. it is obvious to others that it is ridiculous hyperbole, it seems far too much of jump though to conclude from this that non-engagement is the only alternative.

A stand-off seems to me to be desirable, although probably not emotionally satisfying to the more excitable types, and as far as I can see this can only come from engagement.