Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:39 pm

it feels more like a permanent cultural shift to the right.


I couldn't disagree more.....taking out the Republican party makes room for the progressive to take hold

way to the left of the dems

and there are a whole lot of hard working people to continue that fight
they have been working on that for years


come January


no come 2020

remember it only took a couple hundred years for women and Black people to get the right to vote :


we have patience ..unlike 2 year olds



my great grandmother sued the Northwestern Railroad in the 1890's and won a huge settlement......before she even had the right to vote and this was years after she was forced to leave Ireland because her land was stolen from her and the British killed her mother and father
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:04 pm

I'm sure we have vastly different social circles. I am surrounded by thirtysomething city-dwelling folks mostly somewhere on the spectrum between neoliberals and liberals with a very distinct social, class, and generational dividing line between them and more progressive people. However, I just got back home from a conference with a wider smattering of colleagues, many of whom I know, all of whom I feel very comfortable to be around. For such a large community, they are not reflective of the general population as they were only about, as far as I could tell, 2% Trump supporters.

However, I tried to bring up various hot topics: the current state of Haiti, the documentary "The 13th", the Sacred Stone Camp, Barrett Brown, Flint, fracking, automation, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Universal Basic Income, etc. I was just met with blank stares or outright hostility. Everyone just wanted to talk about Trump. Other than the Dakota Access Pipeline, which I guess is just a sexier and more exotic topic, I got no inkling that this cohort (who in a non-election season would be excited to talk some radical avant garde-shit with me).

From the stage it was even worse: just a lot of impassioned get-out-the-vote talk. Two presentations that dared go further were met with walkouts, confusion, and hurt feelings. I had a large sample size: this was about 3,000 people and only magnified what I had been seeing in my more personal social circles.

I just don't think this personality type is radical enough to shift this far right for an election and then bounce far back enough left to do the right thing. I'm talking about people power.

You might be right about institutional power — I have basically not been following senate and congressional races in any other states other than my own — where I have a shitty incumbent Republican who I can't believe even won in the first place vs a wealthy Democrat lauded as the "green candidate" despite the fact that she's 100% for poisoning children. Local Republican attack ads cast an annoying, nebbishy bike messenger to lift a page from Trump's playbook, calling her "Shady Katie McGinty." I'm absolutely fed up with my senate race. There's also little-to-no leftist critique there.

I'm willing to hear otherwise about other races. I could use some good news.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4990
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:12 pm

people do not realize a democracy is not a spectator sport
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

Right and that's what I'm saying about the state of things come January!
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4990
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:23 pm

if my grand mother and her generation took the attitude that I see now days they NEVER would have gotten the right to vote

when you see the courage and grace that Black people have displayed for over generations to fight for their rights as human beings how can you be so impatient?
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:53 pm

seemslikeadream » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:09 am wrote:WOW

Hillary Clinton is unique in contemporary and maybe human history


all of human history.....that's some kinda resume :P

do you think she is possessed by the devil or has she done this all on her own? :P


not that I am blaming the devil for a woman's deeds :)


In human history there has never before been a world human population of around 9 billion and never before has humanity been at such an environmental cross roads.

There is talk of WWIII which will have in place weapons like humanity has ever seen or used.

The USA is arguably the strongest and most influential state now.

No other woman has ever been in the position now occupied by Hillary Clinton.

IMO Hillary Clinton is a lying violent psychopath who has no business to be POTUS regardless of her sex.

You and others bring sex into the conversation when sex is less an issue with Hillary Clinton than just about any politician.

I have no problem with a woman as POTUS. It is a shame that Clinton will be the first female POTUS.

Probably I have been a 100% pro-woman voter in my life but will not vote for Clinton even though I do expect her to be POTUS.

I do not consider Clinton a pro-woman human being past what is politically useful and convenient.

The close association with Bill Clinton is fact and will and has affected Hillary Clinton's actions.

Trump is a non-starter. There is zero chance that I would vote for Trump or suggest to anyone that they vote for Trump.

I think it sort of healthy to accept that Clinton will be POTUS and look to minimize and diminish her time in office and hope for something better in the future.
User avatar
PufPuf93
 
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:29 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:18 pm

seemslikeadream » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:23 pm wrote:if my grand mother and her generation took the attitude that I see now days they NEVER would have gotten the right to vote

when you see the courage and grace that Black people have displayed for over generations to fight for their rights as human beings how can you be so impatient?


Good point, I suppose I'm listening to others' current impatience which lends my own some cognitive bias.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4990
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:20 pm

From Jeff's facebook:

Washington’s foreign policy elite breaks with Obama over Syrian bloodshed

There is one corner of Washington where Donald Trump’s scorched-earth presidential campaign is treated as a mere distraction and where bipartisanship reigns. In the rarefied world of the Washington foreign policy establishment, President Obama’s departure from the White House — and the possible return of a more conventional and hawkish Hillary Clinton — is being met with quiet relief.

The Republicans and Democrats who make up the foreign policy elite are laying the groundwork for a more assertive American foreign policy, via a flurry of reports shaped by officials who are likely to play senior roles in a potential Clinton White House.

It is not unusual for Washington’s establishment to launch major studies in the final months of an administration to correct the perceived mistakes of a president or influence his successor. But the bipartisan nature of the recent recommendations, coming at a time when the country has never been more polarized, reflects a remarkable consensus among the foreign policy elite.

This consensus is driven by a broad-based backlash against a president who has repeatedly stressed the dangers of overreach and the need for restraint, especially in the Middle East. “There’s a widespread perception that not being active enough or recognizing the limits of American power has costs,” said Philip Gordon, a senior foreign policy adviser to Obama until 2015. “So the normal swing is to be more interventionist.”

In other instances, the activity reflects alarm over Trump’s calls for the United States to pull back from its traditional role as a global guarantor of security.

“The American-led international order that has been prevalent since World War II is now under threat,” said Martin Indyk, who oversees a team of top former officials from the administrations of Obama, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton assembled by the Brookings Institution. “The question is how to restore and renovate it.” The Brookings report — a year in the making — is due out in December.

Taken together, the studies and reports call for more-aggressive American action to constrain Iran, rein in the chaos in the Middle East and check Russia in Europe.

The studies, which reflect Clinton’s stated views, break most forcefully with Obama on Syria. Virtually all these efforts, including a report released Wednesday by the liberal Center for American Progress, call for stepped-up military action to deter President Bashar al-Assad’s regime and Russian forces in ­Syria.

The proposed military measures include calls for safe zones
to protect moderate rebels from ­Syrian and Russian forces. Most of the studies propose limited American airstrikes with cruise missiles to punish Assad if he continues to attack civilians with barrel bombs, as is happening in besieged Aleppo. Obama has staunchly resisted any military action against the Assad regime.

“The immediate thing is to do something to alleviate the horrors that are being visited on the population,” said former secretary of state Madeleine Albright, who is leading a bipartisan and international team looking at U.S. strategy in the Middle East for the Atlantic Council. “We do think there needs to be more American action — not ground forces but some additional help in terms of the military aspect.”

Stephen Hadley, a former national security adviser to Bush and a partner with Albright on the Atlantic Council report, said that if Assad continues to bomb civilians, the United States should strongly consider “using standoff weapons, like cruise missiles, to neutralize his air force so that he cannot fly.”

Such measures have been repeatedly rejected by Obama and his top advisers, who warn that they would draw the U.S. military deeper into another messy Middle East conflict. Last year, Obama dismissed calls for a no-fly zone in northwestern Syria — a position advocated by Clinton — as “half-baked.”

In private comments to investment bankers, however, Clinton acknowledged that establishing such a haven would be difficult, requiring the destruction of ­Syrian air defenses, many of which are in populated areas. “You’re going to kill a lot of Syrians,” she said, according to transcripts of her 2013 remarks released by WikiLeaks.

Even pinprick cruise-missile strikes designed to hobble the ­Syrian air force or punish Assad would risk a direct confrontation with Russian forces, which are scattered throughout the key ­Syrian military bases that would be targeted.

“You can’t pretend you can go to war against Assad and not go to war against the Russians,” said a senior administration official who is involved in Middle East policy and was granted anonymity to discuss internal White House deliberations.

The disagreement over Syria policy reflects a broader rift between the Obama White House and the foreign policy establishment over how best to wield American power in a chaotic and dangerous world. The tension has been building for years, but it has spilled over publicly in the past year.

Obama has repeatedly blasted a Washington “playbook” that he complains defaults too quickly to U.S. military force, especially in the Middle East.

“Where America is directly threatened, the playbook works,” Obama said in an interview with the Atlantic earlier this year. “But the playbook can also be a trap. . . . You get judged harshly if you don’t follow [it], even if there are good reasons why it does not apply.”

Inside the White House, senior administration officials regularly dismissed calls for military force from the foreign policy establishment as the product of “too much college, not enough knowledge,” writes Derek Chollet, a former top Obama administration official, in his new book, “The Long Game.”

Other White House officials derisively referred to Washington’s foreign policy experts as “the Blob.”

Virtually no one among the foreign policy elite is calling for a return to the Bush administration policies that led to the toppling of Saddam Hussein and the costly occupation of Iraq. Instead, they are advocating something of a middle ground between Bush’s interventionism and Obama’s retrenchment in the Middle East.

“Everyone has kind of given up on the Middle East. We have been at it for 15 years, and a lot of Americans think it is hopeless,” Hadley said. “We think it is not.”

A similar sentiment animates the left-leaning Center for American Progress’s report, which calls for more military action to counter Iranian aggression, more dialogue with the United States’ Arab allies and more support for economic and human rights reform in the region.

“The dynamic is totally different from what I saw a decade ago” when Democratic and Republican elites were feuding over the invasion of Iraq, said Brian Katulis, a senior Middle East analyst at the Center for American Progress. Today, the focus among the foreign policy elite is on rebuilding a more muscular and more “centrist internationalism,” he said.

Less clear is whether such a policy has any support among an American public weary of war in the Middle East and largely opposed to foreign aid.

“There’s a lot of common ground among these studies,” Katulis said. “My concern is that we may be talking to each other and agreeing with each other but that these discussions are isolated from where the public may be right now.”
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4990
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:58 pm

The Republican Party has to collapse first for a left movement (social democratic, anyway) party to arise or take over the Democrats. Very hard long as there is a 1. powerful Christian-conservative right with so many statehouses and gerrymandered districts and moolah and media and 2. a winner-take-all system. Need IRV at the least.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15983
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Project Willow » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:59 pm

Luther Blissett » 21 Oct 2016 12:04 wrote:
I just don't think this personality type is radical enough to shift this far right for an election and then bounce far back enough left to do the right thing. I'm talking about people power.



Agreed, I am surrounded by many of these folks as well. I recently posted a vid critical of Hillary and her supporters, which I wish I had not done, because I think it's important to keep eyes trained on power rather fellow citizens and not feed into all the nastiness. It elicited a rather telling, but frightening exchange. One woman started out with a quip about Trump being a rapist. When I replied about the Clintons' ties to trafficking, she said, well, trafficking happens everywhere, I'm not going to hold rich people to higher standard.

:starz:
User avatar
Project Willow
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:56 pm

Project Willow » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:59 am wrote:Agreed, I am surrounded by many of these folks as well. I recently posted a vid critical of Hillary and her supporters, which I wish I had not done, because I think it's important to keep eyes trained on power rather fellow citizens and not feed into all the nastiness. It elicited a rather telling, but frightening exchange. One woman started out with a quip about Trump being a rapist. When I replied about the Clintons' ties to trafficking, she said, well, trafficking happens everywhere, I'm not going to hold rich people to higher standard.

:starz:


Perhaps by trafficking, she thought you meant "bad traffic." :shrug:
User avatar
Agent Orange Cooper
 
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:44 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Harvey » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:03 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:58 am wrote:The Republican Party has to collapse first for a left movement (social democratic, anyway) party to arise or take over the Democrats. Very hard long as there is a 1. powerful Christian-conservative right with so many statehouses and gerrymandered districts and moolah and media and 2. a winner-take-all system. Need IRV at the least.


I've made the argument before that this so called Christian Right is a relatively recent phenomenon, people co-opted and politicised by the 'right' in direct relation to their disenfranchisement and abandonment by liberal scientifically literate 'left'. I may be wrong but look at the evidence. Many of the the forebears of these 'hardcore fundamentalists' (they are anything but*) were liberal by instinct, in what were on the whole socially progressive areas, now notionally hard 'right.' They marched with Dr King in spirit if not in person, were against Vietnam, harboured and transported former slaves, were pivotal in the emancipation movement and so on.

What they have in common is that they were deliberately co-opted, appropriated and radicalised by the same groups dividing and radicalising the rest of us, they through their pulpits using codified language they understand, us from ours ditto. Look around.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4165
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:06 pm

Christian Right is a relatively recent phenomenon


could you tell me what you mean by recent
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Harvey » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:09 pm

seemslikeadream » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:06 am wrote:
Christian Right is a relatively recent phenomenon


could you tell me what you mean by recent


More recent than terms of reference such as left and right.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4165
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: Hillary Clinton is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Nordic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:20 am

Image
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests