US Government rules on Gender Identity

[Heaven Swan]

oh no, Luther. You seem so intelligent and caring and now your kool-ade drinking is putting you at risk of doing something that later may weigh heavy on your conscience and you may deeply regret.

If your confusion and not wanting to make waves leads you to support and encourage these parents in giving their child dangerous drugs (puberty blockers) and mega-doses of cross-sex hormones--consider the outcome. Please know that these drugs and eventual surgeries will mangle the child's body and life and most likely lead to an early death.

But you can avoid being implicated or complicit. You can stretch yourself now, consider the cons as well as the imagined pros, and avoid a rude awakening from a bad dream further down the road.

Here's material to start with:

Meghan Murphy’s testimony on Canadian Bill C-16
from yesterday (May 10, 2017 )

The hearing is on Canada’s Bill C-16, and whether to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code to add gender identity and gender expression to the list of prohibited grounds of discrimination.




Here's an article about the bill by Megan Murphy-
http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/10 ... considered

My friends' four-year old daughter has been insistent that she is a boy and has wanted to be called a boy for at least a year. When I first heard it I thought it was phase since they were so young but didn't say anything, more recently I'm starting to think it is at least semi-permanent after my last visit with the family.

[JackRiddler]

My friends' four-year old daughter has been insistent that she is a boy and has wanted to be called a boy for at least a year. When I first heard it I thought it was phase since they were so young but didn't say anything, more recently I'm starting to think it is at least semi-permanent after my last visit with the family.

So? Sounds good. She should be embraced, not medicated.

[Luther Blissett]

I have a feeling that many people on this thread would prefer the parents beat it out of the child.

I didn't mention medication at all.

[MacCruiskeen]

I have a feeling that many people on this thread would prefer the parents beat it out of the child.

What on earth would give you that feeling?

many

Who on earth do you mean? I can`t think of even one.

I didn't mention medication at all.

Nobody here mentioned beating at all, except you.

[Luther Blissett]

Because I get a "final solution" vibe from many of the posts here regarding something that is deeply ingrained in some individuals' biologies from birth.

[MacCruiskeen]

Because I get a "final solution" vibe from many of the posts here regarding something that is deeply ingrained in some individuals' biologies from birth.

Again with the "many". Stop casting vague aspersions on an unnamed "many", especially when the aspersion is that they aspire to emulate Nazi mass murderers. Who do you mean, exactly? Cite the post(s) and lay out the evidence.

I get a "final solution" vibe

That is hysterical rubbish, and insulting to boot. For once Godwin's so-called Law does in fact apply. Get a grip.

[Project Willow]

I have a feeling that many people on this thread would prefer the parents beat it out of the child.

I didn't mention medication at all.

Why would you say something like that? It's really disturbing.

A four year old knows nothing about gender or sex. Children are little sponges, mimicking the behavior of their caregivers as they begin to learn what it is to be human and start to form their own personalities. The child's environment and her parents are producing her behavior, not the other way around.

This idea that an infant, toddler, or pre-pubescent child has an innate sense of "gender", that they then can communicate in an abstract, self reflective way in counter to environmental forces, stands in opposition to everything we know about child development and psychology. It has no scientific basis whatsoever. The child does not possess the mental capacity to figure out the source of her own discomfort on a fundamental level, or to claim some explanation that does not already exist in the environment.

What is the source of child's behavior? She's female, but some adults have determined that some of her behaviors are not acceptable for a female, so she is acting out that conflict in the way that she's been taught. The problem is generated by the adults, and the culture of the adults, not the child. She'd have no idea whatsoever about what it is to be a boy or girl if this weren't the case.

I've read countless accounts from gay men and lesbians who reacted the same way in response to the rigid sex roles they encountered growing up, but because "trans" wasn't a trend when they were children, they learned to hide these aspects of themselves. This eventually resolved as they became teenagers and adults, began to accept their sexuality, and developed the capacity to understand, and break free from the repressive cultural systems affecting them.

[Project Willow]

Because I get a "final solution" vibe from many of the posts here regarding something that is deeply ingrained in some individuals' biologies from birth.

^ This is the seed of an authoritarianism that leads to genocide, the complete dehumanization of people with whom you disagree.

When you can't even say something like, you're wrong, or I disagree, but you must categorize intentions as corrupt or character as evil, there is something that has gone seriously awry.

This is extraordinarily disturbing.

[Sounder]

Society will have come to a very strange place indeed if collectively we decide that enforcing gender stereotypes* is the rational path toward abolishing the gender binary, by which I assume is meant gender stereotypes.

Saying that a person is a man or a woman because that is what they "act" like is an extreme method for enforcing stereotypes.

[Agent Orange Cooper]

Because I get a "final solution" vibe from many of the posts here regarding something that is deeply ingrained in some individuals' biologies from birth.

The incredible thing about this statement is that it is in fact the ideology you are espousing (or, perhaps, entertaining) that gives off the real 'final solution' vibes. You're the one entertaining ideas about what amounts to sterilization (and castration, implicitly, since it goes both ways even though your friend's kid is female), using children's genitals as experimental vehicles for untested medication regiments and medical procedures. Get a grip.

[JackRiddler]

I have a feeling that many people on this thread would prefer the parents beat it out of the child.

I didn't mention medication at all.

This came after many posts above but mine had been the last.

I sure hope you don't think that of me for a moment. I believe the only acceptable parents' response to a child declaring she is a boy or he is a girl is to say to him-her: absolutely! And let the child act how they like and dress how they like (long as it's within budget) and support the child always. And if the child wants a pronoun, that's fine too. If anyone's to be beaten, it should be outsiders who have a fucking problem with it. But that's it. I wouldn't be announcing a gender status to the world on the child's behalf. Soon as the child acquires the words, it can and should use them as it likes. I wouldn't be allowing any medications or operations to change a healthy body into an image of a body that supposedly better fits the child's behavior. Because actually I'd be the one in charge of that decision. See? I'd be saying, your behavior is yours, and it's good, and never mind what others bizarrely think fits some supposed scheme of genders. And when you're 18 (or sooner if you can get yourself emancipated), it's all in your hands.

And no you did not mention medication and I'm sure you don't think that way. But this simultaneous push for it exists. It may be very small now, but I think it needs to stay that way!

This is a difficult issue because on the one hand it's true that in most communities no one gets more injustice or violence directed at them (by murder rate for example) than the group especially of those born male who later present as female. At the same time, there is a transgenderist ideology and I have to say it disturbs me for reasons put simply by Sounder (with whom I disagree on most everything sociocultural) -

Society will have come to a very strange place indeed if collectively we decide that enforcing gender stereotypes* is the rational path toward abolishing the gender binary, by which I assume is meant gender stereotypes.

[Project Willow]

I'm just going to interpret Luther's words as a measure of how upset he is with the discussion on this topic. I have expressed my own upset similarly at times.

Dialogue is so important, and I truly wish to bridge gaps of understanding.

[Luther Blissett]

I just think that marginalized people deserve a fair chance in our human civilization and not further marginalization. I am convinced now more than ever that this is not a choice.

It's madness to suggest that my friends are impressing this upon their child. A lifetime of ostracization, fear and anger and disgust directed at them, violence, etc? Sign them up! What parent wouldn't?

[brekin]

I just think that marginalized people deserve a fair chance in our human civilization and not further marginalization. I am convinced now more than ever that this is not a choice. It's madness to suggest that my friends are impressing this upon their child. A lifetime of ostracization, fear and anger and disgust directed at them, violence, etc? Sign them up! What parent wouldn't?

I think most everyone would agree with your first sentence. The second not so much.
And as we don't know your friends it isn't fair of us to judge them.

However, there is a long history of parents and caregivers consciously or subconsciously signing their children up for a lifetime of ostracization, fear and anger and disgust directed at them, violence, etc for various known and unknown reasons. Suffering creates meaning and a unique identity for many, and I personally think in many of the very young cases this may be the case.
Many children seem to want to be another gender or identity because it seems (to them and possibly others) to procure privileges they normally wouldn't have. "Switching" would seem to be a case where they get both, and in a sense double privileges (or the release of supposed lack of). The parents get to fill their lives with doctors appointments, support groups, "educating" schools, neighbors, other parents, counseling for their children, etc. Basically they get a life project, cause, mission, etc.

Munchausen syndrome by proxy

Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSbP or MbP) is a term often used when a caregiver or spouse fabricates, exaggerates, or induces mental or physical health problems in those who are in their care, with the primary motive of gaining attention or sympathy from others.[1] Its name is derived from the term Munchausen syndrome, a psychiatric factitious disorder wherein those affected feign disease, illness, or psychological trauma to draw attention, sympathy, or reassurance to themselves. However, unlike in Munchausen syndrome, in MSbP, the deception involves not themselves, but rather someone under the person's care. MSbP is primarily distinguished from other forms of abuse or neglect by the motives of the perpetrator. Some experts consider it to be an elusive, potentially lethal, and frequently misunderstood form of child abuse[2] or medical neglect.[3] However, others consider the concept to be problematic, since it is based largely on supposition regarding a person's motives, which can be open to radically different interpretations.[4][5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchause ... e_by_proxy

[Luther Blissett]

Both of my friends are fine, thanks though. Far more normal and conformist than I. There have been no additional doctor's visits beyond the usual vaccinations and check-ups.

How can we help trans people? That is my primary concern.