What is #Pizzagate?

[Heaven Swan]

Wow thanks liminalOyster for your posts and a big welcome to the board. It takes some fortitude to wade through Voat et al and I appreciate your report-backs.


Guruilla, you began your post to PW referring to "liking each other" or not. I want to make clear that what I wrote and will write is not about whether I 'like' you or not. First of all I don't know you and don't know enough about you to determine such a thing. Actually apart from being a Trump supporter (are you?) you seem like someone that if I knew you in life I would probably like hanging out with.

But all that fades into the background and becomes irrelevant here. To effectively debate issues we need to separate ourselves from ourselves and deal with the issues. I am so glad that I've lived and studied in Europe where learning how to disagree on politics and listen to what the other has to say, then walk away with no hard feelings, on the contrary- walk away feeling enriched- is a skill developed over centuries and practiced in universities in the oral tradition.

Americans tend to become emotional and take political discussions personally which makes it hard to have a fruitful debate. I hope that we can do better here. There is a lot at stake.

[guruilla]

And acciusing her of just wanting to express her "strong feeling" in order to vent is a low blow. She sited 6 references to back up what she is stating.

Here it is:

Forget logic, here is the direct damage your frothing has wrought:

http://www.snopes.com/the-pizzagate-survivor/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... 11098e1038
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ve-it.html
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches ... nic-panic/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... e_age.html
https://youtu.be/QcJ1wEtBOk0

Devastating logic, isn't it?

And really, who cares about what Snopes or Wash-Po are saying at this point? No one with even a modicum of awareness takes these sources seriously anymore.

The fact that you can't seem to fathom how the hysteria around PG and its' lack of evidence to stand on could negatively impact the credibility of victims past, present and future and instead go on about petty and imaginary board politics indicates to me that you don't really care about the victims.

Speaking of low blows.

First of all I don't know you and don't know enough about you to determine such a thing. Actually apart from being a Trump supporter (are you?) you seem like someone that if I knew you in life I would probably like hanging out with.

Thanks, but personally, I like hanging out with people who pay attention to what I am saying. You clearly don't or you wouldn't ask if was a Trump supporter. Ye gods.

[liminalOyster]

FFS:

Wikileaks- New code found! Reveals John, Mary, Podesta & Tamera Luzzatto Thelema Cultists.
Random Rants of Ryan
Published on Dec 14, 2016

Thanks to a YouTube viewers of mine they found a Thelema Wikileaks email. Along with an email Tamera Luzzatto sent using code to describe their "circle of 25" readers of supposed "book club" aka Alister Crowley occult religion called Thelema.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdRx4nRUJg8&feature=youtu.be

Here's the evidence from which said conclusion is being drawn (with addies redacted):

Fwd: OUR Mary Podesta--this is an old list so please forward to who isn't on it cause I'm on D's laptop

Having just heard from Ricki who talked to John, and hearing from book group people galore, I thought I better send this much out. AT your and Mary's service to guide a circle of 25 or so totally devoted fellow readers but also friends, and again, anything else I can do to just keep people informed. I hope I worded this suitably or aptly or whatever. Mille love, T (and D) and please do hold her hand for onesecond, and say it's me squeezing with joy that all is OK and pain for her pain.

----Original Message-----

Well, not the message I like to send. Plus, I have only been able to be in touch with family members and friends as David & I have been on 3 legs of a flight to get to Oklahoma City to get to nearby Norman for a nephew's graduation.

Mary was hit by a car this morning, with John thankfully in town and nearby. Because her head was cracked in some way and her pelvis was whacked, it sounded pretty scary for awhile. From what I know from very recently, while she has had a lot of pain, so far, all looks OK and all should be OK. These are not official words, but that's as current as I know.

Knowing more than I'd like to about people who have sudden medical or hospital events/arrivals, I am quite sure that there basically is nothing we can do other than what you think feels right, but probably means we have to leave her and family to themselves now -- a note to her at home to be there when she gets home, an email so she can read it later, etc, etc. John and Mary's kids will be at the hospital and one or more may be there by now, and you know the close circle they have.

No matter what, unless something is happening while I type, our Mary Podesta WAS injured badly but SHOULD be OK.

I will try to keep sending word, or find a way that you get word, and when we can all do something to help, I and our other Mary Followers will round up ways to truly help.

Please know I'm in Oklahoma and right now, I will not be with the family and I also think we know enough about bad accidents or medical crises that there's just not a whole lot we can do. As soon as I have more word or "guidance," I'll send it out. and if anyone else has something to add, please do that too.
For those there at Carolyn's on Sunday, we all were with Mary, and since she is my usual chauffeur since my damn medical devil stopped me from driving since '04, she and I had our usual wonderful drive to book group and back home catching up on family, recent events, where each of us were going next and as always, her love for her family, Truckee, AND our own circle -- we really did talk about all of that. SO, now I will refrain from saying what I REALLY think about the idea of a vehicle hitting her or this happening to her.

LOVE TO ALL. Time for prayers, candles, karma, and oooohhhming once again.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/4895quote

So, if I am reading this correctly, the logic is as follows:

1. It's a foregone conclusion that a fancy boho pizza restaurant connected to the gay community and art/music scene is indisputably the front for an organized extreme abuse network.
2. John Podesta received an email with the word Thelema in it
3. Thus a book group involving his wife is an occult lodge.
4. As we all know, all Thelemites are ritual abuse perps.
5. Return to 1

Bonus evidence: book group email uses word "devil" and makes reference to "candles" and chanting

[guruilla]

I'm torn, because on the one hand, Great, now whenever I want to explore the ties between Crowley/Thelema and organized abuse, it can get lumped in with this stuff (PW's concern); on the other hand, who cares what anyone else is saying or how crappy the research is over somewhere else? Are we supposed to police every thread? I think the trolls of untruth (and/or sloppy reasoning) have always been legion. The Net has just made it more possible to see how legion they are; which is probably a good thing.

[liminalOyster]

who cares what anyone else is saying or how crappy the research is over somewhere else?

IMHO this (ie my post above) isn't even "research." It's parody at best, whether or not the author knows it.

[guruilla]

Anyway, not to worry, the barbarians will never make it past the Gates of Empire:

Facebook is going to use Snopes and other fact-checkers to combat and bury 'fake news'

Facebook is going to start fact-checking, labeling, and burying fake news and hoaxes in its News Feed, the company said Thursday.

The decision comes after Facebook received heated criticism for its role in spreading a deluge of political misinformation during the US presidential election, like one story that falsely said the Pope had endorsed Donald Trump.

To combat fake news, Facebook has teamed up with a shortlist of media organizations, including Snopes and ABC News, that are part of an international fact-checking network led by Poynter, a nonprofit school for journalism in St. Petersburg, Florida.

Starting as a test with a small percentage of its users in the US, Facebook will make it easier to report news stories that are fake or misleading. Once third-party fact-checkers have confirmed that the story is fake, it will be labeled as such and demoted in the News Feed.

A company representative told Business Insider that the social network will also use other signals, like algorithms that detect whether a story that appears fake is going viral, to determine if it should label the story as fake and bury it in people's feeds.

http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook ... ed-2016-12

This push was always in the wings; it seems a bit silly to blame a cloud of mosquitoes for triggering the Doomsday Machine.

[barracuda]

who cares what anyone else is saying or how crappy the research is over somewhere else?

Anyone who says there is nothing to Pizzagate has not put the hours in on Voat to deep dive.

True dat.

[divideandconquer]

There, I said it.

You sure did, PW.

But what exactly did you say? Powerful emotions =/= strong arguments.

I get that you don't like me (the feeling is mutual); I understand that you are triggered (or "triggered") by most of what I write here (I've no idea if you've ever paid attention to anything I do outside of RI), and (it seems) by my mere presence at the board. I get the strong impression that it's a territorial thing for you, that you don't like my having any influence here, and that you hope to undermine that influence by wielding the authority you have here, no matter how unfairly, how reactively, how irrationally or viciously.

I am sure the above post came out of you in a stream of strong feeling, so hopefully that was cathartic for you. But it's not an argument, it's only an opinion expressed fiercely and (I guess) you're hoping people will be too intimidated by your fury to question it, too cowed or wowed by your "status" at the board as the resident survivor activist. Your post is a personal attack on me without any logical argument behind it, much less anything to substantiate it. It's a serious accusation that's unbacked by evidence, like your claim that #Pizzagate is "demonstrably false." It's also against the rules at RI, something that, as an ex-mod, you ought to be aware of, tho I doubt you'll get challenged for it (survivor privileges? If so, they only extend to some; or one).

I wonder if you even know what a disservice you are doing to other survivors (including some who no longer post at this board) with your thinly concealed condemnation of anyone who doesn't adhere to your criteria of how a survivor should behave or communicate? I guess it upsets you that I'm not frightened of your judgement and so won't bend to your will. However disturbing your behavior might be (I would think to anyone at this point), your condemnation means nothing to me: not because I don't care about you (I do, though God knows you make it hard), but because you aren't seeing or addressing me, at all. You never have. Something in me signals a threat to you, and as far as i can tell that's all you have ever seen me as, an imaginary threat. Since I know it's imaginary, I also know it's 100% in you, and what's being expressed above is self-condemnation (something that, as a survivor, I know all too well).

The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those that speak it. --George Orwell

guru, please hang in there. The more you are castigated, the more I'm certain you are on the right path.

[BrandonD]

It's ok not to choose a side. This is a sign of thoughtfulness and consideration IMO. Partisanship on a fresh controversial topic is generally a sign of ideological preconceptions or suggestibility.

Things about this subject do seem suspicious. Things about it also seem fabricated. Massive covert pedophile organizations exist. Politicians also use lies to smear their opponents.

It doesn't appear to me that anyone is coming at this subject from a totally baseless point of view. That's an important point to me, because it seems the most popular rhetoric used today amounts to: "The people on the other side are IDIOTS!"

From past experience, it seems that specific controversial/emotionally-charged events can't really be dispassionately assessed by a diverse group until much time has passed. In the midst of an event we see cultural currents shifting in directions we don't like, we feel that whatever "progress" we've made is becoming compromised, and we really want someone to blame for this.

To me it seems that it's best to just put out information and withhold judgment.

My unsolicited 2¢ - just trying to get back on the bicycle of participation in this firestorm.

[Burnt Hill]

guru, please hang in there. The more you are castigated, the more I'm certain you are on the right path

Why do you think this dandc?
What evidence has been produced that some here may fear?
What is the path that castigation reveals as right?
To me, nothing has been shown that wasn't already known.

[guruilla]

who cares what anyone else is saying or how crappy the research is over somewhere else?

Anyone who says there is nothing to Pizzagate has not put the hours in on Voat to deep dive.

True dat.

Voat sub has indeed deteriorated rapidly, probably due to the flood of Brock-bots precipitating an exodus of serious researchers to a safer zone.

More selective reading for the sake of oppositional identity policing.

guru, please hang in there. The more you are castigated, the more I'm certain you are on the right path.

Thanks D & C: & full kudos for having the courage to publicly side with the sacrificial lamb.

[barracuda]

More selective reading for the sake of oppositional identity policing.

Uhh, no. It was crap the day you recommended it as required reading. It's just more crappy now and you're hedging your bets. So when you ask:

who cares ... how crappy the research is over somewhere else?

...you should bear in mind that you deliberately sent people to chapel perilous for the "deep dive", and some of them never returned.

Not that I really care that much. If you couldn't see the holes in this thing from the get, you weren't gonna be much of a loss, methinks.

[brekin]

I find it quite amusing that people refuting the idea that Pizzagate is another case of Satanic Panic are people who, in previous threads, have expressed that the original Satanic Panic was a legitimate issue.
Sorry, I've yet to be convinced of either. Pizzagate started with some interesting (if terrifying) coincidences and accusations, and there still might be something there, but the further it went along, the more "evidence" that was added, the more those original ideas started to feel false. I use the word "feel' on purpose because all of this is based on feelings. There is no shred of evidence, of guilt or innocence, on either side.
I keep seeing Guruilla and others in difference spaces (FB, etc) say that people dismiss the weaker evidence but fail to address the stronger evidence. Yet, I've not seen that stronger evidence posted. It's always buried under pages of other arguments, and then when discovered, feels to me like more weak evidence. The picture of the girl with her hands taped the table? Weak evidence that people always seem to bring back up as evidence none the less.
Christ, do people not have families or know families? People take "funny" pictures of their kids quite frequently, even if I don't usually find the photos funny myself. I have seen pictures of friends' and family's kids in dog kennels, with their mouths taped shut, tied up like a damsel on railroad tracks, dressed in drag, in prisoner Halloween costumes, murder-clown costumes, on "kid" leashes, etc, etc. This isn't MY version of humor, and I've never done such things with my children, but I'm a sensitive soul. Other people are not so sensitive and their off-colour humor is just that . . . not evidence of organized child crime.
That said, I find the people around Pizzagate creepy. That's how this started. There is always enough of a "feeling" about people that rings true, which is how these things grow and spread. There could be something to it. I find the non-pizzagate evidence, like the Haiti children stuff, much more compelling . . . but would it ever have been seen in that light without the taint of Pizzagate? Can false accusations lead to REAL accusations if people keep digging? Maybe, but all the earlier "cry wolf" moments then cast a shadow of doubt over the real stuff until the two are hard to separate.
Which is entirely Project Willow's point, I believe.
I suspect Guruilla has me on Ignore from a previous argument of ours months ago. If so, I hate to call him out specifically because he would not have the opportunity to react (through self-induced censorship). Regardless, I will say that our earlier argument was very similar to this. I admit that I have not seen as much snark and righteous indignation as I saw in our previous argument (anyone remember or care about the CERN "murder"? LOL), but the pattern is the same. Guruilla will spend 1,000 words asking a lot of questions without really saying anything concrete, but when anyone attempts to answer those questions (or question his questions!) the poster is simply dismissed.

Knowles/Cohen/Levenda/Strieber/Crowely/Cern/PizzaGate, etc.

The Pattern
1. gman seems to have his mind made up about issue
2. makes a specific argument about the big conspiracy, (basically, if it could happen, it did.)
3. seeks confirmation,
4. people disagree,
5. they become part of the argument,
6. evidence never materializes,
7. changes original specific argument into a meta "social studies" lesson, "Forget specific argument and lack of evidence, what is it really about?" etc

He comes on like Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows and goes out like What's it all about, Alfie?

[tapitsbo]

evidence never materializes or evidence is never acknowledged, or only acknowledged quite selectively?

guruilla is human and therefore imperfect - but he's not the one making me feel like I'm trapped on a merry-go-round

[Burnt Hill]

evidence never materializes or evidence is never acknowledged, or only acknowledged quite selectively?

guruilla is human and therefore imperfect - but he's not the one making me feel like I'm trapped on a merry-go-round

I can appreciate that.
Funny though, guru et al make me feel like I am trapped on the tilt-o-whirl.
Interesting dynamics.