Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

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Who or what was Jesus Christ to you?

A physical man and the Son of God
4
12%
A physical man, but a great teacher
4
12%
A physical man, and unworthy of following
1
3%
A myth to be appreciated and studied
12
35%
A myth that should be ignored
3
9%
Other
10
29%
 
Total votes : 34

Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Novem5er » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:53 am

Since half of the board already seems to hate the other half, why not firmly grasp the third rail and hold on tightly until this place turns into a real barbecue :bigsmile

Or . . .

I wonder if people might have interesting and valid viewpoints about, perhaps, the greatest question that Western Civilization has ever wrestled with: Who was Jesus Christ and what does he mean to the world?

I'm entirely serious and I'm entirely curious as to what RIers feel about this subject. I suspect that we have some deeply spiritual people here, some religious, and some militant Atheists, too :) I would post this in the Religion and Occult sub-forum, but there's only been one barely-active thread there in almost two years, and really, I don't think this thread should be about religion. I'd like it to be about us.

Mods, if I'm wrong, then I will understand if this thread is moved there and removed entirely.

So, I'll start. My wife and I have started going back to church this last month and it's been pretty good. However, our church is weird. It describes itself as a "metaphysical interpretation of the Bible". They meditate. They have positive affirmations. The reverend always references the "Jesus Christ Spirit" rather than just saying "Jesus". They don't believe in a physical place called Hell or an evil entity such as the Devil.

Weird, huh? But I'm kind of digging it. I was raised agnostic, bordering on Athiest, so any real spirituality is a stretch for me. I'm not sure if this is growth for me or if I'm just slowly succumbing to the Great Opiate?
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Freitag » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:30 am

I don't really know. He could have been anything from a pacifist, miracle-working magician to a zealot warrior determined to overthrow the Romans. Whatever his true historicity, at this point I believe his name does carry spiritual power.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Elvis » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:22 am

Novem5er wrote:Who was Jesus Christ and what does he mean to the world?


I love the question. Over the years, I've read and asked questions and so on about the historical existence of JC. I have my doubts. But I don't know. My thinking about it was heavily influenced by the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," which posits Jesus as a political figure acting out a popular prophecy. I think Atwill's "Caesar's Messiah" documentary is fairly persuasive, saying Christ was a literary creation by or based on Flavius Josephus, who is indeed a likely suspect.

Anyone have recommendations for other books or films?


Years ago I made my living for awhile selling (online) books from a Methodist bishop's library, including dozens of books about Jesus. I sold every goddam Jesus book in that collection but one: "Jesus and the Poor." I guess nobody wanted to read about the poor. The library included a lot of 1920s era hermeneutic/apologetics from Princeton, Yale School of Divinity, etc. and it's all sophistry, a little desperate, kinda sad. (They were really justifying not so much the existence of God, but, in the age of science, the existence of a theology department.)

Oh, and the confession part: I was baptized at age 8 in a West coast suburban Lutheran church, so I'm covered in case I accidentally commit a sin. :angelwings:
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby FourthBase » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:56 am

Here is how I rate Jesus...

Nietzsche
Shakespeare
Socrates
Jesus
David Foster Wallace

It's like an NBA all-time Top 5* to me.
Can't go wrong with any of them.

Jesus was a great eccentric rabbi.
Was he also the child of God?
Sure! But who isn't.

*like Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby minime » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:35 am

All of us have a little bit of God in us, don't we?




Our story is told through the eyes of a Roman tribune, Autochlus Antonius, an ordinary man, skeptical at first, but who comes to a grudging respect for this swell figure from the East.


It's a swell story.


It's all in the hips, the lips, and the eyes and the thighs.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:12 am

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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby KUAN » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:41 am

.

A myth that just might be based on a real non conformist - hope so...

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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby vince » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:34 am

JESUS----
The ORIGINAL 'FAKE NEWS'!!!!
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Burnt Hill » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:38 am

Whatever your feelings on Dawkins, a decent essay.

Atheists for Jesus - A Richard Dawkins Essay

An essay by Richard Dawkins:

The argument, like a good recipe, needs to be built up gradually, with the ingredients mustered in advance. First, the apparently oxymoronic title. In a society where the majority of theists are at least nominally Christian, the two words are treated as near synonyms. Bertrand Russell's famous advocacy of atheism was called Why I am not a Christian rather than, as it probably should have been, Why I am not a theist. All Christians are theists, it seems to go without saying.

Of course Jesus was a theist, but that is the least interesting thing about him. He was a theist because, in his time, everybody was. Atheism was not an option, even for so radical a thinker as Jesus. What was interesting and remarkable about Jesus was not the obvious fact that he believed in the God of his Jewish religion, but that he rebelled against many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness. At least in the teachings that are attributed to him, he publicly advocated niceness and was one of the first to do so. To those steeped in the Sharia-like cruelties of Leviticus and Deuteronomy; to those brought up to fear the vindictive, Ayatollah-like God of Abraham and Isaac, a charismatic young preacher who advocated generous forgiveness must have seemed radical to the point of subversion. No wonder they nailed him.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."
My second ingredient is another paradox, which begins in my own field of Darwinism. Natural selection is a deeply nasty process. Darwin himself remarked,

"What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low and horridly cruel works of nature."

It was not just the facts of nature, among which he singled out the larvae of Ichneumon wasps and their habit of feeding within the bodies of live caterpillars. The theory of natural selection itself seems calculated to foster selfishness at the expense of public good, violence, callous indifference to suffering, short term greed at the expense of long term foresight. If scientific theories could vote, evolution would surely vote Republican. My paradox comes from the un-Darwinian fact, which any of us can observe in our own circle of acquaintances, that so many individual people are kind, generous, helpful, compassionate, nice: the sort of people of whom we say, "She's a real saint." Or, "He's a true Good Samaritan."

We all know people (is it significant that the ones I can think of are mostly women?) to whom we can sincerely say: "If only everybody were like you, the world's troubles would melt away." The milk of human kindness is only a metaphor but, na?ve as it sounds, I contemplate some of my friends and I feel like trying to bottle whatever it is that makes them so kind, so selfless, so apparently un-Darwinian.

Darwinians can come up with explanations for human niceness: generalisations of the well-established models of kin selection and reciprocal altruism, the stocks-in-trade of the 'selfish gene' theory, which sets out to explain how altruism and cooperation among individual animals can stem from self-interest at the genetic level. But the sort of super niceness I am talking about in humans goes too far. It is a misfiring, even a perversion of the Darwinian take on niceness. Well, if that's a perversion, it's the kind of perversion we need to encourage and spread.

Human super niceness is a perversion of Darwinism because, in a wild population, it would be removed by natural selection. It is also, although I haven't the space to go into detail about this third ingredient of my recipe, an apparent perversion of the sort of rational choice theory by which economists explain human behaviour as calculated to maximize self-interest.

Let's put it even more bluntly. From a rational choice point of view, or from a Darwinian point of view, human super niceness is just plain dumb. And yes, it is the kind of dumb that should be encouraged - which is the purpose of my article. How can we do it? How shall we take the minority of super nice humans that we all know, and increase their number, perhaps until they even become a majority in the population? Could super niceness be induced to spread like an epidemic? Could super niceness be packaged in such a form that it passes down the generations in swelling traditions of longitudinal propagation?

Well, do we know of any comparable examples, where stupid ideas have been known to spread like an epidemic? Yes, by God! Religion. Religious beliefs are irrational. Religious beliefs are dumb and dumber: super dumb. Religion drives otherwise sensible people into celibate monasteries, or crashing into New York skyscrapers. Religion motivates people to whip their own backs, to set fire to themselves or their daughters, to denounce their own grandmothers as witches, or, in less extreme cases, simply to stand or kneel, week after week, through ceremonies of stupefying boredom. If people can be infected with such self-harming stupidity, infecting them with niceness should be childsplay.

Religious beliefs most certainly spread in epidemics and, even more obviously, they pass down the generations to form longitudinal traditions and promote enclaves of locally peculiar irrationality. We may not understand why humans behave in the weird ways we label religious, but it is a manifest fact that they do. The existence of religion is evidence that humans eagerly adopt irrational beliefs and spread them, both longitudinally in traditions and horizontally in epidemics of evangelism. Could this susceptibility, this palpable vulnerability to infections of irrationality be put to genuinely good use?

Humans undoubtedly have a strong tendency to learn from and copy admired role models. Under propitious circumstances, the epidemiological consequences can be dramatic. The hairstyle of a footballer, the dress sense of a singer, the speech mannerisms of a game show host, such trivial idiosyncrasies can spread through a susceptible age cohort like a virus. The advertising industry is professionally dedicated to the science - or it may be an art - of launching memetic epidemics and nurturing their spread. Christianity itself was spread by the equivalents of such techniques, originally by St Paul and later by priests and missionaries who systematically set out to increase the numbers of converts in what turned out to be exponential growth. Could we achieve exponential amplification of the numbers of super nice people?

This week I had a public conversation in Edinburgh with Richard Holloway, former Bishop of that beautiful city. Bishop Holloway has evidently outgrown the supernaturalism which most Christians still identify with their religion (he describes himself as post-Christian and as a 'recovering Christian'). He retains a reverence for the poetry of religious myth, which is enough to keep him going to church. And in the course of our Edinburgh discussion he made a suggestion which went straight to my core. Borrowing a poetic myth from the worlds of mathematics and cosmology, he described humanity as a 'singularity' in evolution. He meant exactly what I have been talking about in this essay, although he expressed it differently. The advent of human super niceness is something unprecedented in four billion years of evolutionary history. It seems likely that, after the Homo sapiens singularity, evolution may never be the same again.

Be under no illusions, for Bishop Holloway was not. The singularity is a product of blind evolution itself, not the creation of any unevolved intelligence. It resulted from the natural evolution of the human brain which, under the blind forces of natural selection, expanded to the point where, all unforeseen, it over-reached itself and started to behave insanely from the selfish gene's point of view. The most transparently un-Darwinian misfiring is contraception, which divorces sexual pleasure from its natural function of gene-propagation. More subtle over-reachings include intellectual and artistic pursuits which squander, by the selfish genes' lights, time and energy that should be devoted to surviving and reproducing. The big brain achieved the evolutionarily unprecedented feat of genuine foresight: became capable of calculating long-term consequences beyond short-term selfish gain. And, at least in some individuals, the brain over-reached itself to the extent of indulging in that super niceness whose singular existence is the central paradox of my thesis. Big brains can take the driving, goal-seeking mechanisms that were originally favoured for selfish gene reasons, and divert (subvert? pervert?) them away from their Darwinian goals and into other paths.

I am no memetic engineer, and I have very little idea how to increase the numbers of the super nice and spread their memes through the meme pool. The best I can offer is what I hope may be a catchy slogan. 'Atheists for Jesus' would grace a T-shirt. There is no strong reason to choose Jesus as icon, rather than some other role model from the ranks of the super nice such as Mahatma Gandhi (not the odiously self-righteous Mother Teresa, heavens no). I think we owe Jesus the honour of separating his genuinely original and radical ethics from the supernatural nonsense which he inevitably espoused as a man of his time. And perhaps the oxymoronic impact of 'Atheists for Jesus' might be just what is needed to kick start the meme of super niceness in a post-Christian society. If we play our cards right - could we lead society away from the nether regions of its Darwinian origins into kinder and more compassionate uplands of post-singularity enlightenment?

I think a reborn Jesus would wear the T-shirt. It has become a commonplace that, were he to return today, he would be appalled at what is being done in his name, by Christians ranging from the Catholic Church to the fundamentalist Religious Right. Less obviously but still plausibly, in the light of modern scientific knowledge I think he would see through supernaturalist obscurantism. But of course, modesty would compel him to turn his T-shirt around: Jesus for Atheists.

The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby minime » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:49 am

And the poll?

"You may select 1 option"?

I vote for A, B, C, D, E, F in no particular order.
Last edited by minime on Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Novem5er » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:49 am

I'm loving the replies and I'm a little surprised by the poll results so far.

Freitag » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:30 am wrote:I don't really know. He could have been anything from a pacifist, miracle-working magician to a zealot warrior determined to overthrow the Romans. Whatever his true historicity, at this point I believe his name does carry spiritual power.


The way a lot of Christians invoke the name of Jesus Christ, it's almost like magick, isn't it? This is, perhaps, my most striking realization recently.

vince » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:34 am wrote:JESUS----
The ORIGINAL 'FAKE NEWS'!!!!


Taken either way, that was pretty hilarious :)

I like what 4B said about a philosophical Dream Team. It's interesting that our reverend mentions Buddha every couple of weeks, too. There are parts of Christianity that mesh very well with Buddhism (my religious-philosophy of choice), but other parts of it are in direct contrast when they start tying things back to the Old Testament.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Nordic » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:10 am

I voted "other" because I believe he was a real man but also a real mystic.

"Son of God"? We're all sons and daughters of "God".
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby smoking since 1879 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:27 am

Freitag » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:30 am wrote:I don't really know. He could have been anything from a pacifist, miracle-working magician to a zealot warrior determined to overthrow the Romans. Whatever his true historicity, at this point I believe his name does carry spiritual power.


i thought he went after the money changers, and that's why they had him killed ... same old same old eh?

now the poor soul is lumbered with two thousand years of propaganda, subversion and malpractice - all in his name, supposedly :|
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby tron » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:28 am

he was and he wasn't

the original duality
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:29 am

.
A bit pressed for time at the moment, but here's a few related comments from prior postings:

Belligerent Savant » Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:16 pm wrote:.
OP ED » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:39 pm wrote:This strategy didn't work out so well for Jesus either.

All it got for him was his system being coopted as just another mechanism of control. I'm not one of his worshippers so I don't personally feel inclined to regard submission to my executioners as a virtue.


Actually, there are alternate views that "Jesus" (or, the figure presumed to be the same entity depicted in the Bible) was in fact quite the revolutionary, and did not shy away from confrontation with his (and his people's) oppressors.

See S.G.F. Brandon's Jesus and the Zealots : A Study of the Political Factor in Primitive Christianity as an earlier work along such lines, or a more recent/pop-ish (and according to certain critics, a bit glossy though at times entertaining) take along similar lines, Reza Aslan's Zealot: the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._G._F._Brandon
[S.G.F. Brandon]'s most celebrated position is the controversial one, that a political Jesus was a revolutionary figure, influenced in that by the Zealots; this he argued in the 1967 book Jesus and the Zealots: A Study of the Political Factor in Primitive Christianity. The Trial of Jesus of Nazareth (1968) raises again, amongst other matters, the question of how the Fall of the Temple in 70 CE shaped the emerging Christian faith, and in particular the Gospel of Mark.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/books ... .html?_r=0
According to Mr. Aslan, Jesus was born in Nazareth and grew up a poor laborer. He was a disciple of John the Baptist until John’s arrest. Like John, Jesus preached the imminent arrival of the kingdom of God, which would be an earthly, political state ruled by God or his anointed, a messiah. Jesus never intended to found a church, much less a new religion. He was loyal to the law of Moses as he interpreted it. Jesus opposed not only the Roman overlords, Mr. Aslan writes, but also their representatives in Palestine: “the Temple priests, the wealthy Jewish aristocracy, the Herodian elite.

In the last week of Jesus’ life, Mr. Aslan writes, he entered Jerusalem with his disciples in a provocative way that recalled royal entrances described in Jewish scripture. He then enacted a violent cleansing of the Temple: something like radical street theater, except that it took place in a site of supreme holiness.
Provoked by that action and his other rantings against the Temple and its caretakers, the authorities arrested Jesus. The Romans crucified him as a rebel, a zealot and a pretender to the Judean throne. The charge on the cross is historical: the Romans took Jesus as claiming to be the messianic king of the Jews. Since only the Roman Senate could appoint kings within the Empire, claiming to be a king was treasonous and punishable by the worst kind of death: torture and crucifixion.



Belligerent Savant » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:45 am wrote:.
Luther Blissett » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:04 am wrote:
Forty years is a long time to sit on something like that. It was all made up.



Well, "all made up" is a bold statement. Has much of it been edited, revised, 'tweaked' and/or otherwise modified to fit certain agendas throughout the ages? Quite likely; the narrative Re: Pilate "washing his hands" and similar themes depicting the Roman Empire in slightly flattering light while pinning blame on "The Jews" and/or their representative clerics for insisting on crucifixion may have been part of a savvy marketing attempt/survival tactic by very early Christians in an effort to help spread "The Word" within the Empire and win over Roman overlords; years later, the Church modified texts or simply withheld certain gospels/"manuscripts", etc...

None of that is to say that a portion of what we now know as the New Testament isn't based on historical events, at least in part.

What part(s)? Ah.. Who's to know at this point? Here we are in 2016, still talkin' 'bout "Jesus".

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