Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby dada » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:22 am

Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:35 am wrote:However, I see where are perspectives diverge. You imagine your power like a growing shadow "over everything. I see myself as one who brings light to dark and shadowy places, to illuminate what lies within the shadows, thereby eradicating growing shadows. Nothing personal though; just the way it is.

Nah, you ain't another me.

dada, are you paying attention?


Perhaps, perhaps.

I appreciate what you're trying to do. You don't need to convince me of anything, though.

Gotta go work for a few hours. Good luck, and happy illuminating.

edited to add: You're not the first person who ever reacted this way to me. It's just flowery prose. I don't take myself as seriously as you take me!

Between jobs edit: taking out some lines I feel were superfluous. I hadn't had any coffee or a cigarette yet.
Last edited by dada on Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby divideandconquer » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:00 am

Luther Blissett
expects "it to be much more like weekends, the 8-hour workday, the end of child labor, or workplace safety — only won through hard-fought organization and activism. History bears this out much more than the dystopian version."


I don't agree. History does not bear out this utopian version that wins "through hard-fought organization and activism," grassroots energy and morale. The age Luther describes--roughly between 1940 and1970-- is an anomaly, a blip on the radar of history. At the end of WWII, they needed a strong middle class to build the technological grid that would later enslave us and to build the great wealth they could later plunder.

Since 9/11, especially, they've stepped up the encroachment laws; stepped up enforcement; stepped up indoctrination, and robbed us of our wealth to the point where, even if we had the time/energy/inclination to fight back--which we don't-- we wouldn't stand a chance.

Like anything else, "enslavement" is a matter of degree, measured by the scale of intensity at any point in time. Those of us born in the 20th century, born in the US, born the right color, etc., were lucky enough to experience "enslavement" with so many benefits, freedoms and perks that we didn't realize we were enslaved at all. But this blip on the radar of history has come to an end. In other words, "Universal Income" is not the "New Deal".

However, having said that, the "New Deal" was not created by benevolent masters. It was a necessary step that appeared to build us up in the short run, but in reality, set us up to trust a government that would later become the boot that crushes and cashes in.
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby minime » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:08 pm

Nail soup then. But watch for the nail.
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:37 pm

Oh, dada, your shadow's translucent and i love you for your transparency, ya big lug!
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby Elvis » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:56 pm

divideandconquer wrote: History does not bear out this utopian version that wins "through hard-fought organization and activism," grassroots energy and morale. The age Luther describes--roughly between 1940 and1970-- is an anomaly, a blip on the radar of history. At the end of WWII, they needed a strong middle class to build the technological grid that would later enslave us and to build the great wealth they could later plunder.


Are you saying that labor's organizing and activism (which go well back before 1940) played no role in improving working conditions? Were beaten and murdered strikers actually just crisis actors wearing fake bandages as they played along with Big Money's clever scheme to enslave workers with better lives?


divideandconquer wrote:the "New Deal" was not created by benevolent masters. It was a necessary step that appeared to build us up in the short run, but in reality, set us up to trust a government that would later become the boot that crushes and cashes in.


The New Deal was created by FDR to stimulate the US economy. He called in the captains of finance and industry and told them they could get with the program or face a revolution by hungry masses. Some agreed, some were reluctant, others fought it. In the end it worked. Because the only way to get a dead economy going is to put spending money in people's hands.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby divideandconquer » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:12 pm

Elvis » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:56 pm wrote:
divideandconquer wrote: History does not bear out this utopian version that wins "through hard-fought organization and activism," grassroots energy and morale. The age Luther describes--roughly between 1940 and1970-- is an anomaly, a blip on the radar of history. At the end of WWII, they needed a strong middle class to build the technological grid that would later enslave us and to build the great wealth they could later plunder.


Are you saying that labor's organizing and activism (which go well back before 1940) played no role in improving working conditions? Were beaten and murdered strikers actually just crisis actors wearing fake bandages as they played along with Big Money's clever scheme to enslave workers with better lives?


divideandconquer wrote:the "New Deal" was not created by benevolent masters. It was a necessary step that appeared to build us up in the short run, but in reality, set us up to trust a government that would later become the boot that crushes and cashes in.


The New Deal was created by FDR to stimulate the US economy. He called in the captains of finance and industry and told them they could get with the program or face a revolution by hungry masses. Some agreed, some were reluctant, others fought it. In the end it worked. Because the only way to get a dead economy going is to put spending money in people's hands.


You talk about history. Well, there were a few decades where the wealth was permitted to transfer from the few at the top of the food chain to the people. As far as I know, that's a first. How is that not an historical anomaly? Now we are returning to the natural world order, the way it's always been. That's what history tells us. Not to mention, all we have to do is look around and see for ourselves... the way it's going.
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:17 pm

Luther Blissett » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:47 pm wrote:
Iamwhomiam » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:58 pm wrote:At ten grand, you'll be lucky to afford heat. Average 1BR in Albany goes for around $1k, some less, though any newer housing will cost you half again $1k.


This is meant to supplement any other potential forms of income and to replace or complement other safety nets.


Yes, I understand this, Luther. We have a great many without either shelter or income, so for them, this amount would be barely enough to keep them alive, and with no medicaid.

Yes, on to step two, as you mentioned to elihu.

Rex, meh for McCloskey. Ultimately one locked into a broken system, trying to get the best out of it. Not much different to me than Murray. But then again, this was my first encounter, so I'm ill informed. But I don't have the will to re-watch it a few times or to read her books to become better informed of this economist's views. No words from her on how to transition from a dead-ended consumption based capitalistic society into a sustainable circular capitalistic or socialistic economy. She seems to want to tweak the laws to benefit the capitalists who control the flow of cash, rather than to the benefit of our dime a dozen voting workforce. I'd be interested in learning more about why she feels "raising the minimum wage to $15 is a bad idea."


Lastly divideandconquer, what a bunch of crap. You quit the game without even playing and have given over to your dark fantasy. Perhaps you'll be so kind as to point out for us exactly how receiving a UBI is enslaving?

Considering you're already a slave, what difference does it make whether you get a guaranteed income or not? If you want to prevent the change you fear will come, you'll need to do more than whine about it.
Damn!, another 10 grand in hand and I'd be living the high life, but not really. I'd lose my 11 grand in workers compensation.

Changing a system for the benefit of all requires devotion and personal sacrifice.

In order to pursue the path laid out in the videos, the [url]Precautionary Principle[/url] must be adopted and applied
.
“When an activity raises threats of harm to human health or the environment, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically. In this context the proponent of an activity, rather than the public, should bear the burden of proof. The process of applying the precautionary principle must be open, informed and democratic and must include potentially affected parties. It must also involve an examination of the full range of alternatives, including no action.”Wingspread Statement on the Precautionary Principle, Jan. 1998

http://sehn.org/precautionary-principle/




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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby DrEvil » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:46 pm

divideandconquer » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:00 pm wrote:Luther Blissett
expects "it to be much more like weekends, the 8-hour workday, the end of child labor, or workplace safety — only won through hard-fought organization and activism. History bears this out much more than the dystopian version."


I don't agree. History does not bear out this utopian version that wins "through hard-fought organization and activism," grassroots energy and morale. The age Luther describes--roughly between 1940 and1970-- is an anomaly, a blip on the radar of history. At the end of WWII, they needed a strong middle class to build the technological grid that would later enslave us and to build the great wealth they could later plunder.

Since 9/11, especially, they've stepped up the encroachment laws; stepped up enforcement; stepped up indoctrination, and robbed us of our wealth to the point where, even if we had the time/energy/inclination to fight back--which we don't-- we wouldn't stand a chance.

Like anything else, "enslavement" is a matter of degree, measured by the scale of intensity at any point in time. Those of us born in the 20th century, born in the US, born the right color, etc., were lucky enough to experience "enslavement" with so many benefits, freedoms and perks that we didn't realize we were enslaved at all. But this blip on the radar of history has come to an end. In other words, "Universal Income" is not the "New Deal".

However, having said that, the "New Deal" was not created by benevolent masters. It was a necessary step that appeared to build us up in the short run, but in reality, set us up to trust a government that would later become the boot that crushes and cashes in.


Out of curiosity, how do you picture a free world? What kind of social order, what kind of financial policies etc.?
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby PufPuf93 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:02 pm

I may have mentioned this prior but one thing happenstance associated with a Universal Basic Income is what is a human society to do when moving into a psot full employment economy (probably because of technology)?

In many ways technology has improved living conditions but also has allowed individuals and institutions to accumulate hard to imagine accumulations of wealth and power. The gains from the technological efficiency have not been shared in an egalitarian manner, have not been used in other than a short time horizon, and have expanded the ability to exploit the environment.

I support something on the order of FDR's second bill or rights as far as guaranteed material support.

Many people are going to have to re-arrange their less than egalitarian view of humanity for such really necessary in my mind scheme such as Universal Basic Income to work.
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby dada » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:26 pm

minime » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:08 am wrote:Nail soup then. But watch for the nail.


What do you have against pumpkin soup? It may not have the reputation that chicken or miso have for being restorative and rejuvenating, but it's good for you.

It would be funny to tell people "I made nail soup. But watch out for the nail," just to watch the reaction. Most would probably laugh, then you'd see them searching in their soup, just in case. Would be good for lifting the spirits, like bringing kool-aid. Some would just wolf it down without even checking. A few might say "no thanks," at first. One person would say "If I find a nail in this soup, I'm punching you."

Of course, I couldn't really make nail soup. I'm going to serve the soup. If someone found the nail, I'd be right there. How awkward would that be.

Anyway, I've been in the mood for pumpkin soup recently, so it's been on my mind. I'll most likely make the lentil soup, or the vegetable barley. And that's that.

You know what's difficult to find? Hebrew alefbet soup macaroni. I think Manischewitz stopped making them.

alefbetsoup.jpg
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby minime » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:02 pm

Supposedly the origin of the universal basic income, with local variations...

http://www.berattarverkstan.se/net/soup.htm

Nail Soup

A traditional swedish [russian, etc.] folk-tale

This story will be used in connection with a nordic storytelling day on spring equinox (march 20, 2002). It can be distributed freely with this copyright notice intact.

Once upon a time there was a tramp walking through a deep forest. He made his living selling a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Now he was cold and tired and hungry and what was even worse, he had nothing left to sell. All he owned were the ragged clothes he wore and an old, bent nail.

When he came out of the forest he saw a little cottage, with smoke rising from the chimney. He knocked on the door, the door opened and a woman looked at him suspiciously.
- Please, could you be as good as to give a poor man shelter for the night, he asked.
- I know your kind, she said, if I let you in you won´t leave before you have eaten everything I have. And I tell you, I´m so poor I haven´t had a bite for three days. So you just go away!
But the tramp was a clever fellow, and the woman was so greedy that she immediately invited him when he said that of course he didn´t want to eat the little she had. On the contrary, he wanted her to share his evening meal.
- But first I want to see the food you say you want to share, she said.
- This is all I need, he said, and took an old, bent nail out of his pocket. Just bring me a pot and some water, and I´ll cook the best soup you ever tasted with this nail.
The woman brought a pot and looked with amazement as the tramp made a fire, cooked some water and dropped the nail in it.
- The soup might be a little thin, he said, you see I have been using the nail for seven days now. It is a pity you don´t have a little salt, that would surely make the soup taste like a soup fit for any gentleman´s house. But what we lack, we don´t have.
- Now that I come to think of it, said the woman. I might have a little salt left since Christmas.
- How lucky, said the tramp and put the salt in the pot. Well I was thinking that perhaps you could even serve this soup to the priest, if we only had some vegetables also. But what we lack, we don´t have.
- Now that I come to think of it, said the woman. I might have some vegetables in the cellar.
The tramp praised the wisdom of the woman and the excellent taste of the soup.
- I think it would even be fit to serve the king, if we only had a little meat to add, said the tramp. But there is no use longing for the impossible. What we lack, we don´t have.
- Now that I come to think of it, said the woman. There might be some dried meat left somewhere.
The tramp happily added the meat to the by now sweet-smelling soup, the woman made the table with her finest silver spoons and her best plates. When she came to think of it, there was actually some wine left since her husband´s funeral.

So she felt almost like a queen when they shared the soup the tramp had cooked with his nail. The next morning the tramp left without his nail, because the woman wouldn´t let him go before he agreed to sell it. And still to this day, the nail has been very useful. Not only can you make a wonderful soup, but you can also use it for cooking tales with. True, what we lack we don't have, but if you add a little of this and a little of that it will certainly be a story fit for telling to a king!
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:59 pm

And here I thought I was reading about Trump's time of hardship on his way to becoming a millionaire!

A great story about how easy it is to fool and take advantage of an ignorant member of the proletariat. We admire his shrewdness without pitying the peon and ignore his victim and her lose. Thanks minime.

PufPuf, well done. An idle workforce cannot be without suffering great discomforts and disruptions - interference in the flow of cash always prompts a call to big brother to fix the problem. As I see it, the right will not rest until every vestige of FDR's policies are eliminated, and many more instituted since. Banking Regs are being loosened, too, so I wouldn't be so sure as WRex of this year's market ending as high as he believes it will.

Environmental and human health protective regulations will not be enforced and will be eliminated wherever and whenever possible. As you know, most pollution regulations presently require self reporting. Soon industries may be not reporting at all, even though presently they are now required to be reported every 5 years. (Stack emissions ~ Dioxins)

Many people are going to have to re-arrange their less than egalitarian view of humanity for such really necessary in my mind scheme such as Universal Basic Income to work.


The payback will come in a lower financial burden for society bear with a healthier society to bear it.
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby minime » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:18 pm

Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:59 pm wrote:And here I thought I was reading about Trump's time of hardship on his way to becoming a millionaire!

A great story about how easy it is to fool and take advantage of an ignorant member of the proletariat. We admire his shrewdness without pitying the peon and ignore his victim and her lose.


A lonely, suspicious old woman is duped into sharing a delicious meal made by a stranger, giving her a warm memory and a story to tell for the rest of her life. Dada, you terrorist.

No one I know or have read interprets the story as you have. What a twisted point of view. No wonder you're here.
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby Elvis » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:33 pm

divideandconquer wrote:You talk about history. Well, there were a few decades where the wealth was permitted to transfer from the few at the top of the food chain to the people. As far as I know, that's a first. How is that not an historical anomaly?


It's called progress. Calling it an "anomaly" suggests there is no explanation, but I think it's readily explained. I can agree that most of the very wealthy saw high taxes on the rich as a concession, a kind of insurance against trouble. Among the American fortunes, however, there were a few Utopian types (some of them backed the Bolsheviks out of idealism, others for profit). Andrew Carnagie genuinely believed in uplifting everyone, e.g. that's why he paid for thousands of free local libraries across the U.S. (something Rockefeller would never do just for its own sake). There's this idea that keeps springing up, that humans are capable of evolving mature, egalitarian and peaceful societies.

And, at the end of the day, those high taxes on the very rich were enacted by elected representatives of 'the people'; it was at least partly an expression of the constituents' will.

Also, aren't income taxes on the top brackets still quite high in Europe?—Great Britain, France et al? Isn't that why Gérard Depardieu moved to Russia?


Now [b]we are returning to the natural world order, the way it's always been. That's what history tells us. Not to mention, all we have to do is look around and see for ourselves... the way it's going.


I think this is a dangerous notion because it absolves the believer of all responsibility for making a better world; it's a defeatist view insisting that "nothing can be done, people will always be slaves to some overlord, wars are inevitable, human progress and freedom are fantasies." I think that idea is provable untrue—surely you can name some examples? How about Magna Carta? Wasn't that a small step in the right direction?
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Re: Universal Basic Income: gaining traction

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:49 pm

I know now I should have moved my thanking you to the beginning of the paragraph. I enjoyed the tall tale very much. And I enjoyed it because he got over on her. But my observation is true, is it not? That we think of his benefit without considering hers? We all walked out with him and his full belly, admiring the coin he's exchanged most cleverly for a nail and gave her nary another thought.

True, she too is a shrew. No question about it. And she had the benefit of company with dinner, surely a rare thing for one with her disposition, and she very much enjoyed his recipe enough so as to purchase from him his nail. She's probably still talking about what a wonderful meal she had and what a great deal she'd gotten.

Therefore: Must be a Trump supporter.
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