Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

[The Consul]

One would do well to remember that WTO actions in Seattle were primarily put together by organized labor. Riots were started by the police (as proven in court). Cops used my friends old Dodge Dart as a rubber bullet target practice on the corner of Broadway & John St. "Why, they couldn't have been shooting at me. I was just coming home from the shipyard."

One can say that Hotel Guy was the anti-globalist candidate, but only in the sense that is what he proclaimed himself to be. However, looking at his cabinet appointments and what little we know about his global holdings, it would take a leap of faith to believe such is his true intention. Hard to see how a reasonable mind would not make that conclusion. If anything, Hotel Guy only represents a New Globalist Order that includes deep support from psychotic Rapturists and true believers with whom he shares not one grain of faith.

One also does well to remember that anarchists don't care much more for liberals than conservatives and it would be safe to assume that all manner and form of black blocers have been infiltrated or compromised in the last 17 years.

[Luther Blissett]

I watched a DVD of This Is What Democracy Looks Like. There is also a dramatic reenactment, available for free I think, on Netflix.

Listening to the speech from the beginning of that is so painful knowing that dissent suffered such a setback for so long after 2001. Because I think it might have been possible otherwise.

[Iamwhomiam]

What we need to do is get their senior supervisors to yank guys like the pepper spraying guy above out of the action for psychological examination. Out of all in the photo, why is he the only aggressive one?

Bullies!

[American Dream]

I knew somebody who wanted to take a court settlement for mass police brutality at protests and use it for training in tolerance and peace-making for the cops. Problem is they were just doing their jobs as the Police Chief and Feds had set it out for them. This included indoctrination in dehumanizing the protestors as dangerous/scary terrorists with diseases to spread and arming and directing these officers to inflict pain and trauma as an integral part of their jobs.

[brekin]

That seems kinda cold, to me. I did not go for riots, and the only kind I saw was a police riot. Everything had been planned for months as nonviolent civil disobedience- and that is all I expected.

If you were in Seattle, then you are probably no longer young and can handle the following.
The world is a cold place.
Even large concerts and sporting events all carry the seed of a possible riot.
Nonviolent civil disobedience is a often a misnomer, probably even an oxymoron.
All disobedience is a challenge to power, and power will respond with the threat of force, then force.
And I wouldn't listen to the rhetoric of either side of protests of what is "planned" for an event that has thousands upon thousands of varying agendas and attendees. That is bad expectation management. The event has plans for itself.
You only have to watch a few dozen protest videos of protestors shouting "Non-violent protest!" as they are either being violently acted upon by the police or members of their protest (by the fact of mere presence if not official affiliation) are violently acting upon the police or even other protestors/counter-protestors/random citizens/symbolic target.
Or the law enforcement's planned response and their actual response to such events.



I don't think anyone can really control a crowd of whoever.
I assume the chances of the shit hitting the fan is always 1 in 5 at whatever large event.

[American Dream]

It sounds to me like you are naturalizing and thereby justifying State Violence and Political Repression.

Do you believe in being politically active? If so, how?

[brekin]

It sounds to me like you are naturalizing and thereby justifying State Violence and Political Repression.
Do you believe in being politically active? If so, how?

I'm saying it happens, always has happened, probably always will to some degree.
To work to lessen and rectify is great and noble, to expect it not to be though is naive.
If you have police forces, jails, prisons, armies, legal institutions, then there is always going to be some state violence and political repression. And we will probably always need those institutions.

And I believe in being politically active, in every conceivable possible way. Protests included.
But when it has gotten to the point where a large part of the country is protesting the existence of a democratically elected reality show slum lord misogynist putinista mafioso lite president, then obviously many people failed in being active in every other conceivable way.
Protests simply say, "I'm not happy with things".
Yeah, what's new pussycat? Whoah, whoa, whoaaahhh...

[American Dream]

I am often weary of protest culture- not that it is wrong, more that is not enough. Is there anything that you find more meaningful in the social sphere?

Also, don't you think there is a significant difference between those who fulfill a self-defense function for a ruling class authority that is outside and above us, for their profit and power and one that really is constituted differently? Or are you saying that political repression and state violence are forces of nature that we must submit to? I think you were against revolutions that lead to authoritarian states, which contains an important kernel of thought- should we therefore accept liberal democracy as it wages war, exploits us, jails us and commits extreme violence upon us?

[Iamwhomiam]

I knew somebody who wanted to take a court settlement for mass police brutality at protests and use it for training in tolerance and peace-making for the cops. Problem is they were just doing their jobs as the Police Chief and Feds had set it out for them. This included indoctrination in dehumanizing the protestors as dangerous/scary terrorists with diseases to spread and arming and directing these officers to inflict pain and trauma as an integral part of their jobs.

Earlier I wanted to mention that, AD.

It has to do with soldiers being trained to disparage and dehumanize those identified as enemies, in order to make their extermination more palatable. Much easier to kill "a Zombie" than "Uncle Joe" And that's why we shouldn't allow retired soldiers become policemen. Protestors are fellow citizens, with rights equal to those of the police, and citizens who actually pay police not only their salaries and generous pensions, but for the harms police cause through their unconstitutional acts of malfeasance, and protesting citizens should never be treated as enemies of the state.

[American Dream]

Beautiful. I very much agree.

During the wave of protests I am referring to, those who had to arrest, jail (and abuse) the protestors were prepped with movies and trainings telling them that these were dangerous anarchist terrorists coming to town- they are dirty and diseased. They could be HIV+ and have dirty needles in their bag and/or balloons with urine in them, so don't take your gloves off. Or so a jailer told my friend who broke through the wall of social conditioning.

[brekin]

I am often weary of protest culture- not that it is wrong, more that is not enough. Is there anything that you find more meaningful in the social sphere?

I think people who change their immediate self, or microculture, to where they are less dependent on the main culture is more meaningful to me.
A lot of the radical changes people want, they can implement themselves. But that road is hard(er).

Also, don't you think there is a significant difference between those who fulfill a self-defense function for a ruling class authority that is outside and above us, for their profit and power and one that really is constituted differently? Or are you saying that political repression and state violence are forces of nature that we must submit to? I think you were against revolutions that lead to authoritarian states, which contains an important kernel of thought- should we therefore accept liberal democracy as it wages war, exploits us, jails us and commits extreme violence upon us?

"The ruling class" often is just whoever makes more money than you. There are people who would equate you and me as ruling class. The police protect peoples lives and properties. Not always or always efficiently, equitably, or justly. But they do. (There was a police protestor who recently got randomly shot by gang bangers in a car at a large protest and was surprised when the police he had just been vigorously antagonizing went to work saving his life.) More often now protestors try to provoke a police response to gain attention or justify their position proving abstractions (the state is fascist!). The riot police are "Symbols of State Violence and Repression" from central casting. There is a difference between Pinkerton Detectives or BlackWater and the Police. Granted, in some cities and even tiny towns the Police can often be a paid army in service to a moneyed few, but there is still the rule of law that tempers it to some varying degrees. You'd have to show how a police force could be "constituted differently" than paid law enforcement officers. Volunteer? Posse? Militia? I mean there are always trade offs.

I think we already accept to a large degree "liberal democracy as it wages war, exploits us, jails us and commits extreme violence upon us". There's been that gambling acquiesces from the beginning, for all strata and classes. And it is there even if we choose not to accept it. A protest (compared to a rally, shut down, strike or insurrection) is just saying: I accept this (the system), but I really don't like this (certain manifestation of the system) and want you to temper it, change it, or hide it better.

I don't know if political repression and state violence are forces of nature that we must submit to. The obviously are manifestations from nature, which may be the same thing, but I think we can channel, bend, refine, etc. these forces so we don't always have to be ruled as much by them than being in control of them. I think what we are seeing is now there are fewer hands controlling these forces, with greater reserves and dispersal points and greater speed and force in delivery than ever before.

I knew somebody who wanted to take a court settlement for mass police brutality at protests and use it for training in tolerance and peace-making for the cops. Problem is they were just doing their jobs as the Police Chief and Feds had set it out for them. This included indoctrination in dehumanizing the protestors as dangerous/scary terrorists with diseases to spread and arming and directing these officers to inflict pain and trauma as an integral part of their jobs.

Earlier I wanted to mention that, AD.

It has to do with soldiers being trained to disparage and dehumanize those identified as enemies, in order to make their extermination more palatable. Much easier to kill "a Zombie" than "Uncle Joe" And that's why we shouldn't allow retired soldiers become policemen. Protestors are fellow citizens, with rights equal to those of the police, and citizens who actually pay police not only their salaries and generous pensions, but for the harms police cause through their unconstitutional acts of malfeasance, and protesting citizens should never be treated as enemies of the state.

Of course, and the police, you know "the pigs" are also disparaged and dehumanized along the same lines because...

It has to do with soldiers being trained to disparage and dehumanize those identified as enemies, in order to make their extermination more palatable. Much easier to kill "a Zombie" than "Uncle Joe"

Which takes us back to the Frank Zappa quote earlier.

[82_28]

Again, WTO shit in Seattle was not caused by the pro union protesters. I have told the tale before probably many a time. They were not anarchists. They were agents. At the very least right wing agitators who were on the calling tree telling them hey come down for kick ass time framing the left for this shit, wear all black and snag your SWAT mask from the locker. As I have said, I could tell it was a right wing set up. Bear in mind I was a spry 24 year old. Even I could tell it was fake and wasn't no into the shit we dabble in here. But there was much less socially riding on it at the time. At least what we could envision. Got the fuck out within 5 minutes of the gassing. The police state was moving in. The hush came over the crowd and I said there is something not right here. It was loud with music and shit and then it was suddenly silent. The police had corralled every one. I got the fuck out.

I wonder if we can start or someone to start a reddit AMA of a black bloc person. They were not real. Carry on.

[American Dream]

I think people who change their immediate self, or microculture, to where they are less dependent on the main culture is more meaningful to me.
A lot of the radical changes people want, they can implement themselves. But that road is hard(er).

I was just saying elsewhere tonight that going back to the land to make a lot of pickles is cool but I am looking to combine that with active movements in the social sphere. That is, if and when we can provide cheap/free housing and food to people on the front lines, that is a powerful combination.

"The ruling class" often is just whoever makes more money than you. There are people who would equate you and me as ruling class. The police protect peoples lives and properties. Not always or always efficiently, equitably, or justly. But they do. (There was a police protestor who recently got randomly shot by gang bangers in a car at a large protest and was surprised when the police he had just been vigorously antagonizing went to work saving his life.) More often now protestors try to provoke a police response to gain attention or justify their position proving abstractions (the state is fascist!). The riot police are "Symbols of State Violence and Repression" from central casting. There is a difference between Pinkerton Detectives or BlackWater and the Police. Granted, in some cities and even tiny towns the Police can often be a paid army in service to a moneyed few, but there is still the rule of law that tempers it to some varying degrees. You'd have to show how a police force could be "constituted differently" than paid law enforcement officers. Volunteer? Posse? Militia? I mean there are always trade offs.

I hear you but don't fully agree. I want to add more institutional analysis. There is a System with certain structures and it grossly empowers a small class of people. The rest of us fighting each other over personal standing is less central.

A protest (compared to a rally, shut down, strike or insurrection) is just saying: I accept this (the system), but I really don't like this (certain manifestation of the system) and want you to temper it, change it, or hide it better.

I strongly agree with you here.

Of course, and the police, you know "the pigs" are also disparaged and dehumanized along the same lines because...

It has to do with soldiers being trained to disparage and dehumanize those identified as enemies, in order to make their extermination more palatable. Much easier to kill "a Zombie" than "Uncle Joe"

It's not really about hating on individual cops, even though individual cops might do really horrible things and we can be incredibly angry about those things. It's much more about the System which empowers and protects them.

[American Dream]

Again, WTO shit in Seattle was not caused by the pro union protesters. I have told the tale before probably many a time. They were not anarchists. They were agents. At the very least right wing agitators who were on the calling tree telling them hey come down for kick ass time framing the left for this shit, wear all black and snag your SWAT mask from the locker. As I have said, I could tell it was a right wing set up.

In support of what you're thinking, I know that a movement lawyer said Delta Force came to town and set up a command post in a motel in Denny Regrade. Allegedly they had the Black Bloc "uniform" and went out streaming live video back to their network. Also, someone I know told a story of one of these type of people being confronted and them responding with an intense punch to the jaw from a gloved hand containing brass knuckles.

I don't know of any solid evidence but I can easily believe that the world works this way.

[82_28]

Yeah I saw "it all". Everything was utterly peaceful. The black bloc and the "authorities" moved in at the exact same time. Again, I was young as fuck but I noticed it. It was unquestionably timed the fuck out on a schedule.