Terror Attack in Sweden

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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby tapitsbo » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:32 am

Maybe Trump was attacking the Swedish ideology. We can find evidence of it by going to the horses' mouths - statements by politicians there have achieved some measure of notoriety.

Of course many people are never going to acknowledge why the ideas promoted by the Swedish government and media would ever, ever be controversial - or they will object to any controversy on various grounds. They might also object to the sources you linked, Searcher08, regardless of the content.

What's at stake here, as with so many issues of the day, isn't just facts or ideas, indeed what is at stake is the possibility of dissent/controversy/discussion itself.
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:44 am

Tapitsbo, notorious statements by the Swedes, especially those dictating internal governmental policies should be made widely known. Considering I'm unfamiliar with any statements as you've described, how about you sharing with us those you consider "notorious." Links with quotes would help us all.

So please, point out for us the horses whose mouths you've heard or read making such "notorious" statements.

Just claiming it is true without providing any substance that what you wrote is true, does not make it true. It now stands as your undocumented claim, much like President Trumps false claim.

added "made" to first sentence
Last edited by Iamwhomiam on Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby tapitsbo » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:13 pm

Anything I cited could be easily dismissed as a false claim. Media have dismissed the claim of "no-go zones" in regards to Europe as a false claim for instance - while EMS and many observers have gone on the record disagreeing.

I'll admit that countries like Sweden and Germany are being targeted by a media campaign by America-centric right wing groups like the Gatestone Institute as much as by Soros-type groups opposed to national borders and sovereignty.

All that is a somewhat separate issue from the platform of the media/political leadership of such countries. From Canada it is clear to me that something is amiss in Germany in terms of constraints on political processes and public discussion, as Merkel prepares to enter her fourth term (!) while lecturing the rest of Europe about "threats to democracy" as countries like Greece and Ukraine get looted and cauldronized...

The ultimate designs behind the so-called "migrant crisis" are still not clear to me and I'm willing to entertain the idea that aspects of this were orchestrated in order to fuel right-wing politics or worse (war.)

Reading about countries like Germany and Sweden however, it's obvious that there is a serious mismatch in perceptions of many events and issues there, going by varying accounts from institutions and people on the ground.
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:19 pm

Searcher08 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:30 am wrote:
Elvis » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:57 am wrote:
They are there to be found.


I looked, all I found was Metro, the Mail, Breitbart, Gatestone etc.

You see no chance that these organizations would tend to exaggerate this stuff? You see no motive (not to mention means & opportunity) for them mounting a campaign to incite fear and loathing of immigrants and especially Muslims? Are these the people we're supposed to trust now? I don't trust them one bit.

One girl "victim" of indeterminate age and two teenage boys arrested for "groping." It's little wonder the MSM is not picking up this "mass sex attack" scenario—it's flimsy.


[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3831991/Wheelchair-bound-woman-gang-raped-six-migrants-Swedish-asylum-centre-asking-use-toilet.html[/url]
[url]https://www.rt.com/news/369415-sweden-refugees-rape-afgan-boy/[/url]
[url]https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2017/01/26/3-men-gang-rape-young-woman-in-sweden-broadcast-it-live-on-facebook/[/url]

[url]http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/how-sweden-became-an-example-of-how-not-to-handle-immigration/[/url]



Thanks Searcher, but are those sources meant to be an improvement, or more examples of shoddy journalism sensationalist propaganda?

Let's take pjmedia story on "men-gang-rape-young-woman-in-sweden."(To indicate pjmedia's serious journalistic intent, it ran the story in its "Lifestyle" section.) Scroll to the bottom:

"This article originally appeared on The Sun"
:lol:

Sources cited include that bastion of objective reporting, NY Post, and the same conservative/right-wing Swedish tabloids as in the "mass sex attack" discussed above: Aftonbladet and Expressen. Not a single attributed statement from police.


Am I the only one seeing a coordinated campaign designed to demonize Muslims? It bears all the hallmarks.

Or are the hard-right, anti-Muslim elite just sitting on their with their hands folded, watching events from the sidelines? How likely is that?
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:55 pm

It is not an undocumented claim, it is a plainly false claim intentionally advanced by those who would create hysteria, foment hatred and gain support for barbarous policy. People like Searcher08 on this board are absolutely disgusting. They blame the West and Europe for the situation in Syria, and then they want to see the refugees trying to flee it either die there or drown in the effort to escape. 10,000 unaccompanied children who entered the EU during the 2015-2016 refugee wave are currently counted as missing within Europe. An AfD politician in Germany and member of a state parliament recently wrote the government about the costs of sterilizing this particular group. This is the resurgent fascist politics that Searcher08 is supporting by disseminating the lies about increased crime rates in Sweden attributable to refugees. The rhetoric doesn't bother to put it as neutrally as I have: these millions of people fleeing war are instead labeled flat-out as "rapefugees," a term that should get anyone who uses it approvingly banned from this board as promptly as the n-word. The documentary Carlson pimped when Trump was watching (which led to his confused statement the next day making it sound that Sweden had suffered a terrorist attack the night before) is fraudulent, as interview partners attest. More O'Keefe/Breitbart-style madness. Shame!

Thorough treatment here - fucking read it first before you complain about the venue, and engage its points if you are going to respond.

http://www.vox.com/world/2017/2/20/1466 ... rant-crime

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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:31 pm

Tapitsbo, let's review our conversation, and maybe this time you'll back up your words with facts, which are indisputable because they are verifiable. Please take note of my additional one-word edit.

tapitsbo » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:32 am wrote:Maybe Trump was attacking the Swedish ideology. We can find evidence of it by going to the horses' mouths - statements by politicians there have achieved some measure of notoriety.

Of course many people are never going to acknowledge why the ideas promoted by the Swedish government and media would ever, ever be controversial - or they will object to any controversy on various grounds. They might also object to the sources you linked, Searcher08, regardless of the content.

What's at stake here, as with so many issues of the day, isn't just facts or ideas, indeed what is at stake is the possibility of dissent/controversy/discussion itself.


Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:44 am wrote:Tapitsbo, notorious statements by the Swedes, especially those dictating internal governmental policies should be made widely known. Considering I'm unfamiliar with any statements as you've described, how about you sharing with us those you consider "notorious." Links with quotes would help us all.

So please, point out for us the horses whose mouths you've heard or read making such "notorious" statements.

Just claiming it is true without providing any substance that what you wrote is true, does not make it true. It now stands as your undocumented claim, much like President Trumps false claim.

added "made" to first sentence


tapitsbo » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:13 pm wrote:Anything I cited could be easily dismissed as a false claim. Media have dismissed the claim of "no-go zones" in regards to Europe as a false claim for instance - while EMS and many observers have gone on the record disagreeing.

I'll admit that countries like Sweden and Germany are being targeted by a media campaign by America-centric right wing groups like the Gatestone Institute as much as by Soros-type groups opposed to national borders and sovereignty.

All that is a somewhat separate issue from the platform of the media/political leadership of such countries. From Canada it is clear to me that something is amiss in Germany in terms of constraints on political processes and public discussion, as Merkel prepares to enter her fourth term (!) while lecturing the rest of Europe about "threats to democracy" as countries like Greece and Ukraine get looted and cauldronized...

The ultimate designs behind the so-called "migrant crisis" are still not clear to me and I'm willing to entertain the idea that aspects of this were orchestrated in order to fuel right-wing politics or worse (war.)

Reading about countries like Germany and Sweden however, it's obvious that there is a serious mismatch in perceptions of many events and issues there, going by varying accounts from institutions and people on the ground.


And so, I'll continue...

...by setting into bold face type the bits I find unsettling because it is nothing more than your so called hearsay.

"Maybe Trump was attacking the Swedish ideology." No one knows what motivates Trump to tweet the insane shit he's been tweeting. Even the Swedish Ambassador to the USA asked, "What's he been smoking?"

But I have no idea at all what Swedish ideology is, so why not explain for us what their ideology is. (I'm assuming you're referring to Swedish ideology as it relates to immigration?) I doubt I'm the only one ignorant of the Swedish ideology, so lend us a helping hand by sharing with us your insight and wisdom? (I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out the US ideology, btw.)

Though you say we can find evidence of this ideology, "We can find evidence of it by going to the horses' mouths - statements by politicians there have achieved some measure of notoriety." you deny providing us the information you claim has been uttered by Swedish politicians, that have become notorious. How do you refuse us this "evidence"? By telling us, "Anything I cited could be easily dismissed as a false claim."

Next you wrote, "Of course many people are never going to acknowledge why the ideas promoted by the Swedish government and media would ever, ever be controversial - or they will object to any controversy on various grounds."

Please, pray tell, what ideas are being promoted by the Swedish government? I really have no idea, but you sure seem to have a firm grip on whatever ideology they, as government policy, are promoting? Surely, this you can share with us - how about you providing us with a link to an official Swedish government website relating their ideology? Hell, I have no idea what our USA ideology is let alone that of another country's. So, be kind to you fellow RI members and share with us your knowledge. Please do.

After all, "What's at stake here, as with so many issues of the day, isn't just facts or ideas, indeed what is at stake is the possibility of dissent/controversy/discussion itself."

"I'll admit that countries like Sweden and Germany are being targeted by a media campaign by America-centric right wing groups like the Gatestone Institute as much as by Soros-type groups opposed to national borders and sovereignty."

I'm unfamiliar with the Gatestone Institute, but please put a name to a couple of those nasty "Soros-type groups" that opposes sovereignty and national borders. Links too, but I'll settle for you naming just a few.

The ultimate designs behind the so-called "migrant crisis" are still not clear to me and I'm willing to entertain the idea that aspects of this were orchestrated in order to fuel right-wing politics or worse (war.)

Nah, not war, just genocide.

This is my last:
"Reading about countries like Germany and Sweden however, it's obvious that there is a serious mismatch in perceptions of many events and issues there, going by varying accounts from institutions and people on the ground."

Thanks for sharing this profound truth with us. It's nice you've noticed. But regardless, please substantiate your earlier remarks with verifiable, factual evidence of your claims. Really, tapitsbo, what the fuck is Swedish ideology?
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:37 pm

Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:31 pm wrote:Really, tapitsbo, what the fuck is Swedish ideology?


Please take this argument to the existing thread, What the Fuck is Swedish Ideology?

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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:51 pm

How cruel you are, you wicked man!
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:19 pm

Thanks for the Vox article, Jack. Here's a bit more on Ari Horowitz:

Meet the gonzo Jewish filmmaker behind Trump’s fake news on Sweden

By Cnaan Liphshiz February 21, 2017 12:30pm

Image
Ami Horowitz signing New Yorkers to a fake petition in support of police officers in 2016. (Courtesy of Horowitz)

(JTA) - Pressed to explain his false claim that something terrible had happened in Sweden last week, President Donald Trump tracedthe canard back to the reporting of Ami Horowitz, a gonzo Jewish-American filmmaker who spoke about Sweden’s problem with Muslim immigrants on Fox News.

On Saturday, during a campaign-style speech in Florida on border security and immigrants, Trump urged listeners to “look at what’s happening last night in Sweden,” leading to widespread puzzlement and mockery from Swedes who said no terrorist attack had taken place there the previous day or even recently.

Carl Bildt, a former prime minister of Sweden, wondered on Twitter what Trump “is smoking,” and the Aftonbladet paper ran a daily roundup from Friday featuring nothing more sinister than a small northern avalanche.

Later Saturday afternoon, Trump indicated that the only thing that happened Friday is that he caught Horowitz talking about Sweden on Fox News.

Image Donald J. TrumpVerified account
‏@realDonaldTrump

My statement as to what's happening in Sweden was in reference to a story that was broadcast on @FoxNews concerning immigrants & Sweden.

Retweets
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1:57 PM - 19 Feb 2017



The president’s reference was arguably a breakthrough for Horowitz, focusing rare international attention on Sweden’s immigrant crime debate, which Horowitz has spent considerable — and controversial — efforts investigating.

In his Fox News interview Horowitz, a former investment banker turned activist with a camera, claimed violent crime by refugees was out of control in Sweden and that the government there is covering up reports of rape to protect “vulnerable” migrants.

Coming amid a polarizing debate about the millions of immigrants arriving in Europe from the war-torn Middle East and Africa, the comments by Trump touched off a discussion about the president’s shaky handle on the facts.

But, Horowitz told JTA, it also “put a spotlight on the main issue: Sweden’s problems with immigration and crime. Which is positive.”

Horowitz has also reported on what he and others call Sweden’s “no-go zones” – areas that are densely populated by mostly Muslim immigrants from Africa and the Middle East that many native Swedes, and Jews especially, avoid for fear of harassment and robbery.

A 43-year-old father of two, Horowitz last year went filming in a no-go zone in the Stockholm neighborhood of Husby, where he recorded an alleged assault on himself by several Arab speakers who objected to his filming on the street.

“My crew ran off when they approached, but since I was miked we have the first few seconds of the attack,” Horowitz, a Los Angeles native who lives in New York, told the Daily Mail. “They repeatedly punched, kicked and choked me as a number of bystanders watched. Eventually they dragged me into a building, which at the time I assumed was to finish me off.” Horowitz ultimately was released.

On Monday, violence erupted in another no-go zone, Rinkeby, where locals torched several cars after police arrested a man there, the Dagens Nyheter daily reported.

Horowitz, a vocal critic of Trump during the campaign, describes himself as “at times conservative, at other times liberal.” He said the incident in Husby was not his first close call while making films that offer a hard look at liberal causes or defend Israel.

In 2016, he took an 11-hour road trip in the West Bank to counter claims that Israeli security forces restrict movement there. At a crossing point into Israel, an adrenaline-filled Horowitz was filmed throwing rocks back at Palestinians who hurled them at him and others waiting to enter.

In 2009, while filming a prickly documentary about the U.N. double standard on Israel and other issues, he traveled to war-torn Cote D’Ivoire to investigate incidents in which U.N. soldiers opened fire on unarmed demonstrators. In the same film, Horowitz seized the microphone at the controversial 2009 Durban Review Conference in Geneva, telling attendees that they should be “embarrassed and ashamed” by their anti-Israel bias. The incident was also captured on tape by JTA.

And in 2015, he sailed with Syrian immigrants infiltrating Europe across the Aegean Sea, reporting that he saw an ISIS recruiter attempting to recruit some of the would-be newcomers.

In 2014, he filmed the reactions of students at the University of California, Berkeley, as he variously waved Israeli and ISIS flags on campus; students are shown ignoring the ISIS flag but reacting angrily to Israel’s. In another film he asked New Yorkers to sign a petition titled “Cops’ Lives Matter.”

Initially, Horowitz’s no-go experience in Sweden generated little attention in the country, where “mainstream media tend to not report the ethnicity of perpetrators of crimes,” according to an employee of the Swedish Migration Board who spoke to JTA on Tuesday on condition of anonymity for fear of being fired.

But Trump’s remarks focused intense attention in Sweden to the link between crime rates in the country of 9 million and its admittance since 2013 of more than 300,000 asylum seekers mainly from Muslim countries.

Sweden had been one of the most welcoming nations in Europe to refugees, but in 2016 drastically cut back on asylum quotas. The government said it was over housing issues.

Some have cited Sweden to defend Trump’s executive order limiting immigration from seven predominantly Muslim countries. Some regard Sweden as an inspiring role model for its efforts to resettle asylum seekers. But others see it as a failed experiment, and say it has contributed to an unprecedented rise in the popularity of far-right anti-Islam parties that are riding a wave of discontent over the arrival of unskilled immigrants at a time of economic stagnation.

As for Sweden’s 20,000 Swedish Jews, they have seen an explosion of hate crimes against members of their community in recent years. Dozens of incidents are documented annually in Malmo alone, a southern city with only 1,000 Jews where a third of the population of 300,000 are Muslims.

Trump’s remark also exposed Horowitz to criticism for his gonzo style of journalism, which owes more to Michael Moore and “The Daily Show” than CNN. In the past he has filmed interviews without permission, provoked onlookers’ reactions with outrageous stunts and edited footage to ridicule interviewees. Horowitz defends his methodology as accurate, though he admits it is “confrontational and provocative.”

On Monday, two police officers he interviewed for his Sweden documentary, in which Horowitz claimed Muslims are overrepresented among perpetrators of criminal activity, said he edited their answers manipulatively. Horowitz denied the charge and attributed their reactions to pressure from their superiors.

In an op-ed published Tuesday by the Svenska Dagbladet, Linda Nordlund, a former chairwoman of the Liberal Youth of Sweden, criticized Horowitz for relying on anonymous sources in asserting that a majority of women waiting at a police station were there to report rape. She said Horowitz “is known for his xenophobic views” and that his report is “full of inaccurate statistics and innuendo.”

But in that same op-ed, Nordlund also said that Trump’s “false claims” and Horowitz’s “fake news” eclipse a necessary discussion on real problems – including the undisputed overrepresentation of foreigners in criminal activity. Authorities in Sweden do not publish precise data on the nationality or ethnicity of perpetrators, which the media also squelch.

Nordlund also noted an increase in sexual harassment in public swimming pools, though she wrote that Horowitz’s claims that rape is increasing are false.

Still, while there was a dip in the number of reported rapes in 2015, the average has risen in Sweden by 18 percent in the years 2011-2016 to an average of 6,341 cases annually, compared to 5,260 cases in the years 2006-2010, according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention.

“There’s been a lot of discussions about statistics, a lot of back and forth,” Horowitz said of the effects of his reporting in Sweden. “There’s a lot of disinformation but on the whole, this overdue discussion is a good thing for Sweden and Europe.”

http://www.jta.org/2017/02/21/news-opinion/world/meet-the-gonzo-jewish-filmmaker-behind-trumps-fake-news-on-sweden

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ami_Horowitz
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:59 pm

JackRiddler wrote:It is not an undocumented claim, it is a plainly false claim intentionally advanced by those who would create hysteria, foment hatred and gain support for barbarous policy.


Thank you. Nice that I'm not alone on this.

JackRiddler wrote:The documentary Carlson pimped when Trump was watching (which led to his confused statement the next day making it sound that Sweden had suffered a terrorist attack the night before) is fraudulent, as interview partners attest. More O'Keefe/Breitbart-style madness.


Note: fraudulent. There is no way of avoiding the conclusion that it's fraud.

Thorough treatment here -
http://www.vox.com/world/2017/2/20/1466 ... rant-crime

http://www.vox.com/world/2017/2/20/1466 ... rant-crime

The Vox piece is worth quoting:

Horowitz, the ultimate source of all this, is facing serious allegations of selectively editing footage of Swedish police officers to make it seem like they’re blaming crime on immigrants when they actually aren’t.


The Swedish immigration and crime statistical graphs have already been posted in this thread.

“What we’re hearing is a very, very extreme exaggeration based on a few isolated events, and the claim that it’s related to immigration is more or less not true at all,” Jerzy Sarnecki, a criminologist at Stockholm University, told the Globe and Mail’s Doug Saunders.


Tucker Carlson’s guest [b]Ami Horowitz, is in deep hot water over journalistic ethics.

Carlson’s segment begins with a clip from Horowitz’s most recent film, Stockholm Syndrome. In the clip, two Swedish police officers, Anders Göranzon and Jacob Ekström, sound what appear to be warnings about high levels of criminality by immigrants. But in fact, as the officers told the Swedish publication Dagens Nyheter, they were talking about crime in general, without any specific reference to crime by immigrants.

“We answered a different question. We don’t stand behind what he says. He is a madman,” Göranzon said on their behalf. “He has edited the answers. We were answering completely different questions in the interview.”

Horowitz denies this, telling the Guardian that “the officers are probably under a lot of pressure because of what they said.” He could be right; it’s hard to know who’s telling the truth here unless Horowitz releases the unedited footage.

But this controversy hammers home the bizarreness of Trump’s comments. The president of the United States said something clearly inaccurate, which turned out to be based on a Fox News segment filled with faulty references to statistics and a dubiously edited documentary clip.


I'm really stunned that so many smart people fell for this.
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Grizzly » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:52 am

Yet again, I'm seeing reddit in full court press with race baiting and misogynist posts all over the front page, many posts under the pretensions of "just being funny", but really offensive. It seems methodical.
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Nordic » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Elvis this has all been covered at RI before. Probably when you aren't here.

If you really want to learn about this stuff, just search RI.

Instead of telling us we're all full of shit.

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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Elvis » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:29 pm

Nordic » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:03 pm wrote:Elvis this has all been covered at RI before. Probably when you aren't here.

If you really want to learn about this stuff, just search RI.

Instead of telling us we're all full of shit.

K?


I didn't say that anyone posting here is full of shit, I'm saying that the stories I discussed above are full of shit, and I'm surprised that other people find the stories credible.

I do not think that you or anyone who agrees with you, about the credibility of those stories, is stupid. I do not think they're assholes. I do not think there's anything "wrong" with you or any of them because they disagree. I do think the propaganda is working.

Being fooled by propaganda is not a hate-able offense! It's happened to me many times, but very often I later find out that I was fooled.

Also, I've read lots of coverage of this on RI, and I've read back to catch up, so I don't think I've missed much.
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:52 pm

I didn't think a full chorus was necessary to chime in agreeing the Swedish Attack stories were manufactured, but people have been led to believe no news reporting can be valid - only true is what Donald tells us is true or the news sources he points us to.
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Re: Terror Attack in Sweden

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:11 pm

Okay, I think several of the very regular posters here are full of shit. Stupid? Can't know. May just be trolls. (Not mutually exclusive, I realize.)

Otherwise:

Wombaticus Rex » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:37 pm wrote:
Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:31 pm wrote:Really, tapitsbo, what the fuck is Swedish ideology?


Please take this argument to the existing thread, What the Fuck is Swedish Ideology?

:thumbsup


Stoned again? :thumbsup

Iamwhomiam » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:52 pm wrote:I didn't think a full chorus was necessary to chime in agreeing the Swedish Attack stories were manufactured, but people have been led to believe no news reporting can be valid - only true is what Donald tells us is true or the news sources he points us to.


It can be valid if it's on OPEDnews and points to Soros as the progenitor and financier of anti-Trump sentiment, though.
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