Al Queda wins an Oscar

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby Elvis » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:34 pm

American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:49 am wrote:
RT and pro-war 'anti-war' dupes bash White Helmets

Submitted by Bill Weinberg on Sun, 03/05/2017

The inevitable RT runs a puff-piece on so-called "anti-war protesters" who crashed a pop-up orchestral and choral performance of Beethoven's Ode to Joy in Manhattan's Grand Central Station that had been called to support the White Helmets and promote the documentary about them. The protesters obnoxiously mixed themselves up with the orchestra while holding their nonsensical signs reading "White Helmets are US Propaganda," "No US bases in Syria," and "This is US war agenda." Amazingly, the RT account puts "humanitarian" in scare quotes before "White Helmets"—as if rescuing trapped civilians from bombed-out buildings were not humanitarian. But there are, of course, no quotes around the phrase "anti-war protesters," despite the fact that these sinister clowns (apparently from the group Hands Off Syria) are objectively pro-war, and evidently oppose any aid to the victims of Russian and Assad regime air-strikes.

We could also point out the hilarious irony of the name "Hands Off Syria," as they obviously support the massive Russian foreign intervention in Syria. And the further hilarious irony that these "anti-war activists" are on the same side as Donald Trump, whose Homeland Security department barred the Syrian cinematographer who worked on the documentary, Khaled Khatib, from entering the country to attend the Oscars.

Nothing is more sickening than pro-war "anti-war" jive.



This is surreal. Anyone who still thinks the White Helmets were a genuine, indigenous, altruistic humanitarian force—and not composed of ISIS terrorists, who are clearly documented in both roles—just has not done their homework, or they have turned off their critical thinking abilities.

And there's a lot of speculation and assumption going on in that article: "they obviously support the massive Russian foreign intervention"; "anti-war activists" are on the same side as Donald Trump"; "evidently oppose any aid to the victims." Whaa?? Those are hallmarks of a disengenuous argument—weak inferences to paint your target as "sinister."


AD, are you in favor of putting U.S. military bases in Syria, and promoting a U.S. military invasion of Syria? If you are, why not just come out and say so?
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:20 pm

I'm more of the "a pox on all their houses" school as far as the ruling classes in Russia, Syria, the United States and everywhere else. I don't think Putin, Trump, Assad, Gaddafi et al represent anything much I want to get behind.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby Elvis » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:39 pm

American Dream wrote:I'm more of the "a pox on all their houses" school as far as the ruling classes in Russia, Syria, the United States and everywhere else. I don't think Putin, Trump, Assad, Gaddafi et al represent anything much I want to get behind.



I'm with you on that. And wouldn't the situation be better if the U.S. foreign policy apparatus (and those of UK, Saudis, Qatar, Israel) had just minded their own business and not greatly enlarged and distorted a Syrian civil dispute into a war that destroyed much of the country, not to mention destroyed so much Islamic heritage and irreplacable Greek art and monuments?

I guess we differ on how the elements fit together, according our different interpretations. For instance, it bugs me a lot when a supposedly progressive writer calls antiwar protesters "sinister clowns" and by faulty logic accuses them of alliance with foreign leaders and terrorists.

Generally, I think the US/UK/Saudi/Israeli recruitment, formation and support of various ISIS groups was a brilliant double-edged stategy: in the same stroke, ISIS serves as a proxy army to oust Assad and as an enemy that 'must be destroyed.' Both provide an excuse for bombing and special forces in Syria; what stands out to me is that in three years or so of U.S. bombing, bombing, bombing, ISIS territory only got bigger, bigger, bigger.

I think the people to ask about this are the Syrians who are returning to their homes after their city was cleared of the ISIS terrorists, by, um, Russian air power and Syrian army forces—zero thanks due the American empire and its news media who sided with the terrorists they fund.

Getting back to the immediate topic, watch this video with the volume turned up:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgl271A6LgQ

Hear that whistle blow? That's the signal for "ACTION!" Out of the quiet, all hell breaks loose as the other actors in the vincinity play their "rescue" roles with cameras running.

To confirm this fake, look at this page (thanks Parel)—Massive White Helmets Photo Cache Proves Hollywood Gave Oscar to Terrorist Group, it's obvious that the 'victim' in the video is one of the ISIS/White Helmet terrorists.

And it really is obvious—not just presumed, Bill Weinberg style—because the photos back it up. From the evidence, I can't see the White Helmets as anything but an extension of the US-backed ISIS proxy terror army.

The Oscar is an enormous PR coup for the empire. Can you still defend it after seeing the evidence?
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:09 pm

The things that seem so sure to you are not so sure to me. Looking at the evidence proferred I would say you are much more inclined to be a a believer in the narrative which favors Assadism and Putinism.

That said, I'm not great fan of the State generally nor the U.S., UK, Saudi, Qatari, Israeli power structures in particular.. I would certainly add though the Syrian State as well as Iran and Russia. Somehow I get the idea you don't see them the same as me. We probably both agree that ISIS is horrendous, even though you may see it more as a cat's paw of (unnamed?) third parties than do I.

As to the protestors, I am sure there were all types of individuals there but forces such as the IAC/WWP are very bad news.


And wouldn't the situation be better if the U.S. foreign policy apparatus (and those of UK, Saudis, Qatar, Israel) had just minded their own business and not greatly enlarged and distorted a Syrian civil dispute into a war that destroyed much of the country, not to mention destroyed so much Islamic heritage and irreplacable Greek art and monuments?

I guess we differ on how the elements fit together, according our different interpretations. For instance, it bugs me a lot when a supposedly progressive writer calls antiwar protesters "sinister clowns" and by faulty logic accuses them of alliance with foreign leaders and terrorists.

Generally, I think the US/UK/Saudi/Israeli recruitment, formation and support of various ISIS groups was a brilliant double-edged stategy: in the same stroke, ISIS serves as a proxy army to oust Assad and as an enemy that 'must be destroyed.' Both provide an excuse for bombing and special forces in Syria; what stands out to me is that in three years or so of U.S. bombing, bombing, bombing, ISIS territory only got bigger, bigger, bigger.

I think the people to ask about this are the Syrians who are returning to their homes after their city was cleared of the ISIS terrorists, by, um, Russian air power and Syrian army forces—zero thanks due the American empire and its news media who sided with the terrorists they fund.

Getting back to the immediate topic, watch this video with the volume turned up:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgl271A6LgQ

Hear that whistle blow? That's the signal for "ACTION!" Out of the quiet, all hell breaks loose as the other actors in the vincinity play their "rescue" roles with cameras running.

To confirm this fake, look at this page (thanks Parel)—Massive White Helmets Photo Cache Proves Hollywood Gave Oscar to Terrorist Group, it's obvious that the 'victim' in the video is one of the ISIS/White Helmet terrorists.

And it really is obvious—not just presumed, Bill Weinberg style—because the photos back it up. From the evidence, I can't see the White Helmets as anything but an extension of the US-backed ISIS proxy terror army.

The Oscar is an enormous PR coup for the empire. Can you still defend it after seeing the evidence?
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby Elvis » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:43 pm

American Dream wrote:The things that seem so sure to you are not at all so sure to me.


Since you didn't address it one way or the other, this prompts me to ask if you read the page I linked—Massive White Helmets Photo Cache Proves Hollywood Gave Oscar to Terrorist Group—because there's little point in discussing this if we don't discuss evidence, or refuse to look at evidence that might contradict what we think we know (and so often want to know).


American Dream wrote:That said, I'm not great fan of the State generally nor U.S., UK, Saudis, Qatar, Israel. I would certainly add though the Syrian State as well as Iran and Russia. Somehow I get the idea you don't see them the same as me.


The issue is not that we have different views of the roles being played by those countries, that much is clear doesn't need to be restated; the issue is whether or not White Helmets are in fact ISIS terrorists who won an American Academy Award.

Evidence has been offered that they are comprised of ISIS terrorists, and that they produced numerous videos of phony "rescues," and I was hoping to engage on that evidence.


We probably both agree that ISIS is horrendous, even though you may see it more as a cat's paw of (unnamed?) third parties than do I.


AD, I know you're a good person who means well, but please don't pull that baloney insinuation stuff with me. In my post I said exactly whose catpaw I see:

Elvis wrote:Generally, I think the US/UK/Saudi/Israeli recruitment, formation and support of various ISIS groups was a brilliant double-edged stategy


I think the player of greatest importance is probably the U.S. neocon faction who've taken root in the State Dept. among other places. Not to leave out other ISIS sponsors & facilitators like Qatar and Turkey, of course.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:55 pm

Elvis, if you have a text-based article which you feel proves your contentions about ISIS, Syria etc., please post it. The more rigorous the better.

I did indeed look at the links and I didn't see much that convinced me of anything. We will probably just end up having to agree to disagree but if you do have a solid proof of what you are contending, please do share it.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby tapitsbo » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:02 am

Might seem pedantic but I haven't seen any evidence of the "White Helmets" having overlapping membership with IS/Daesh...

I thought they overlapped more with "moderate rebels" and AQ affiliates.

Might seem like a cosmetic difference but it means a lot. The latter groups are perfectly legal in a number of countries and enjoy much broader overt support from media, institutions, etc. around the world...
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby SonicG » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:31 am

tapitsbo » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:02 am wrote:Might seem pedantic but I haven't seen any evidence of the "White Helmets" having overlapping membership with IS/Daesh...

I thought they overlapped more with "moderate rebels" and AQ affiliates.

Might seem like a cosmetic difference but it means a lot. The latter groups are perfectly legal in a number of countries and enjoy much broader overt support from media, institutions, etc. around the world...


This link shows photos of persons who appear to be posing as ISIS members and posing as White Helmets. If you click on White Helmets Terrorists on the right, there are some articles although I cannot vouch for their rigor.
This article was linked earlier:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/02/al ... l#comments

What other blog/site did Moon of Alabama grow out of?
"a poiminint tidal wave in a notion of dynamite"
User avatar
SonicG
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby Nordic » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:25 am

tapitsbo » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:02 pm wrote:Might seem pedantic but I haven't seen any evidence of the "White Helmets" having overlapping membership with IS/Daesh...

I thought they overlapped more with "moderate rebels" and AQ affiliates.

Might seem like a cosmetic difference but it means a lot. The latter groups are perfectly legal in a number of countries and enjoy much broader overt support from media, institutions, etc. around the world...



Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard and everyone else who have actually BEEN THERE have pointed out that there are no "moderate rebels".
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby elfismiles » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:00 am

So ... this is the ultimate Spitting-Image, Separated-at-Birth, Crisis-Actor PR Strategem?

ETA:

November 4, 2016
Just How Gray Are the White Helmets of Syria?
by Jan Oberg
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/11/04/ ... -of-syria/

The White Helmets – al-Qaeda with a facelift (video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aAaReVn2I4

‘Error of judgment’: White Helmets apologize for bizarre mannequin challenge video - RT.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytpt4sgoxYI
User avatar
elfismiles
 
Posts: 8511
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:46 pm
Blog: View Blog (4)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:17 am

.

Interesting, the White Helmets issued an apology for that video, claiming it was an intentional attempt made in poor judgement to grab some viral action from the "Mannequin Challenge" (whatever the hell that was, I vaguely remember something about it). So yes, it is a fake and the excuse stinks, but anyway...

Leaving aside the photo and video analysis stuff that is usually less-than certain and often dubious (the Encyclopedia Browns of the world just can't resist confirmation overkill, especially since 9/11), I'll go with a) Boris Johnson saying the UK gave 32 million pounds to the White Helmets organization (which originated in the UK) and b) the State Department spokesperson saying USAID gave them 23 million dollars as two pretty interesting takeaways concerning the possible nature of a group that in its self-presentations at times has claimed it receives no funding from governments. Seems to me that one should stick to the salient and undeniable facts, no? I mean sure, this could be that odd random case in which the powers simultaneously backing Saudi Arabia and Israel to the suicidal hilt as they go about destroying the remnants of the Middle East just happened to free their purses for a good cause in the same region, right?

As for this thread (can we correct the spelling in the title please, sorry, I cannot help mentioning this, it is pretty much an involuntary tic)...

In a year when 13th was among the nominees and Mr. Unleash the Police Dogs and "Send the Feds into Chicago" is president, Hollywood sure took an easy way out by making a bold statement against the alleged crimes of a country not named America, a statement about a situation on which their tin statue can have no positive effect. But maybe they decided based on artistic merit?

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15983
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby tapitsbo » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:28 am

Nordic » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:25 am wrote:
tapitsbo » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:02 pm wrote:Might seem pedantic but I haven't seen any evidence of the "White Helmets" having overlapping membership with IS/Daesh...

I thought they overlapped more with "moderate rebels" and AQ affiliates.

Might seem like a cosmetic difference but it means a lot. The latter groups are perfectly legal in a number of countries and enjoy much broader overt support from media, institutions, etc. around the world...



Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard and everyone else who have actually BEEN THERE have pointed out that there are no "moderate rebels".


Not true of those like John McCain who have done extensive PR for "moderate rebels"... then again I am using the scare quotes for a reason although I understand that many people do support these groups. While people might find they have disturbing resemblances to groups like IS/Daesh it is extremely confusing to say they are identical/conflate them

The West has overall backed off somewhat from support of these groups (for example cutting off aid to some areas under their control) especially since the election in the US!

These groups are fighting alongside the Turkish military, which has itself been boxed in by an agreement between the Syrian government and the SDF coalition... the tides definitely seem to have turned
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby American Dream » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:49 am

JackRiddler » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:17 am wrote:.

Leaving aside the photo and video analysis stuff that is usually less-than certain and often dubious (the Encyclopedia Browns of the world just can't resist confirmation overkill, especially since 9/11), I'll go with a) Boris Johnson saying the UK gave 32 million pounds to the White Helmets organization (which originated in the UK) and b) the State Department spokesperson saying USAID gave them 23 million dollars as two pretty interesting takeaways concerning the possible nature of a group that in its self-presentations at times has claimed it receives no funding from governments. Seems to me that one should stick to the salient and undeniable facts, no? I mean sure, this could be that odd random case in which the powers simultaneously backing Saudi Arabia and Israel to the suicidal hilt as they go about destroying the remnants of the Middle East just happened to free their purses for a good cause in the same region, right?

In a year when 13th was among the nominees and Mr. Unleash the Police Dogs and "Send the Feds into Chicago" is president, Hollywood sure took an easy way out by making a bold statement against the alleged crimes of a country not named America, a statement about a situation on which their tin statue can have no positive effect. But maybe they decided based on artistic merit?


I very much agree with all this. A pox on all the houses of the Bourgeoisie.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby Elvis » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:25 am

American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:55 pm wrote:Elvis, if you have a text-based article which you feel proves your contentions about ISIS, Syria etc., please post it. The more rigorous the better.

I did indeed look at the links and I didn't see much that convinced me of anything. We will probably just end up having to agree to disagree but if you do have a solid proof of what you are contending, please do share it.



How is a text-based article any better than photographs left behind by White Helmets? If you saw the photos, you saw the man who played the "victim" in the "mannequin" video also working as a White Helmet. These same people demonstrated and cheered with ISIS (or whatever you want to call it, the flag and insignia is the same), carrying weapons etc. They're clearly seen in both roles. And they left behind a lot of (text!) documents that show their true allegiances. They stole medicine and hoarded it.

You disingenuously demand absolute proof, knowing I can't provide that. I never spoke of proof, I talked about the persuasive evidence that you just shrug off without offering the least reason why.

Are you prepared to show proof that my conclusions are wrong? Of course not. Why would you demand it of me?

Based on the pretty abundant evidence, I'm persuaded that everything we know about the White Helmets indicates they're PR tools of the neocon forces trying to take over Syria. It doesn't appear that I've persuaded you to consider that, so unless you have more (something more solid than Bill Weinberg's opinions), I'll just let it be. Thanks.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Al Queda wins an Oscar

Postby American Dream » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:57 am

I'd certainly agree that the White Helmets receive funding from Euro/American states and that they have called for the inclusion of military targets from the Syrian State (as well as ISIS, & Al-Qaeda). I don't personally love any of the big factions currently wreaking havoc. I don't demonize the White Helmet but neither do I love them uncritically.

Bill Weinberg makes some fair points when he says:

Amazingly, the RT account puts "humanitarian" in scare quotes before "White Helmets"—as if rescuing trapped civilians from bombed-out buildings were not humanitarian. But there are, of course, no quotes around the phrase "anti-war protesters," despite the fact that these sinister clowns (apparently from the group Hands Off Syria) are objectively pro-war, and evidently oppose any aid to the victims of Russian and Assad regime air-strikes.


You complain about the use of the phrase "sinister clowns" but the Stalinoid members of the Workers' World Party who are supporting the growth of the Hands Off Syria coalition have a long, long tradition of sketchy entryism in support of the many murderous/authoritarian regimes they support: North Korea, Libya, Iran, Russia, Syria et al. and they have never cared much about the many victims of their chosen heroes.

The video you cited means something but it does not prove your overall thesis, which seems to be the Russian/Syrian state propaganda line. I don't think being an anti-imperialist or for the working class means swallowing their propaganda hook, line and sinker- and not the U.S.-sponsored line either.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DrEvil and 48 guests