The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby liminalOyster » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:49 pm

I think Glenn's been very clear (or at least vocal) about his continued commitments:

GLENN GREENWALD: The deep state, although there’s no precise or scientific definition, generally refers to the agencies in Washington that are permanent power factions. They stay and exercise power even as presidents who are elected come and go. They typically exercise their power in secret, in the dark, and so they’re barely subject to democratic accountability, if they’re subject to it at all. It’s agencies like the CIA, the NSA and the other intelligence agencies, that are essentially designed to disseminate disinformation and deceit and propaganda, and have a long history of doing not only that, but also have a long history of the world’s worst war crimes, atrocities and death squads. This is who not just people like Bill Kristol, but lots of Democrats are placing their faith in, are trying to empower, are cheering for as they exert power separate and apart from—in fact, in opposition to—the political officials to whom they’re supposed to be subordinate.

And you go—this is not just about Russia. You go all the way back to the campaign, and what you saw was that leading members of the intelligence community, including Mike Morell, who was the acting CIA chief under President Obama, and Michael Hayden, who ran both the CIA and the NSA under George W. Bush, were very outspoken supporters of Hillary Clinton. In fact, Michael Morell went to The New York Times, and Michael Hayden went to The Washington Post, during the campaign to praise Hillary Clinton and to say that Donald Trump had become a recruit of Russia. The CIA and the intelligence community were vehemently in support of Clinton and vehemently opposed to Trump, from the beginning. And the reason was, was because they liked Hillary Clinton’s policies better than they liked Donald Trump’s. One of the main priorities of the CIA for the last five years has been a proxy war in Syria, designed to achieve regime change with the Assad regime. Hillary Clinton was not only for that, she was critical of Obama for not allowing it to go further, and wanted to impose a no-fly zone in Syria and confront the Russians. Donald Trump took exactly the opposite view. He said we shouldn’t care who rules Syria; we should allow the Russians, and even help the Russians, kill ISIS and al-Qaeda and other people in Syria. So, Trump’s agenda that he ran on was completely antithetical to what the CIA wanted. Clinton’s was exactly what the CIA wanted, and so they were behind her. And so, they’ve been trying to undermine Trump for many months throughout the election. And now that he won, they are not just undermining him with leaks, but actively subverting him. There’s claims that they’re withholding information from him, on the grounds that they don’t think he should have it and can be trusted with it. They are empowering themselves to enact policy.

Now, I happen to think that the Trump presidency is extremely dangerous. You just listed off in your news—in your newscast that led the show, many reasons. They want to dismantle the environment. They want to eliminate the safety net. They want to empower billionaires. They want to enact bigoted policies against Muslims and immigrants and so many others. And it is important to resist them. And there are lots of really great ways to resist them, such as getting courts to restrain them, citizen activism and, most important of all, having the Democratic Party engage in self-critique to ask itself how it can be a more effective political force in the United States after it has collapsed on all levels. That isn’t what this resistance is now doing. What they’re doing instead is trying to take maybe the only faction worse than Donald Trump, which is the deep state, the CIA, with its histories of atrocities, and say they ought to almost engage in like a soft coup, where they take the elected president and prevent him from enacting his policies. And I think it is extremely dangerous to do that. Even if you’re somebody who believes that both the CIA and the deep state, on the one hand, and the Trump presidency, on the other, are extremely dangerous, as I do, there’s a huge difference between the two, which is that Trump was democratically elected and is subject to democratic controls, as these courts just demonstrated and as the media is showing, as citizens are proving. But on the other hand, the CIA was elected by nobody. They’re barely subject to democratic controls at all. And so, to urge that the CIA and the intelligence community empower itself to undermine the elected branches of government is insanity. That is a prescription for destroying democracy overnight in the name of saving it. And yet that’s what so many, not just neocons, but the neocons’ allies in the Democratic Party, are now urging and cheering. And it’s incredibly warped and dangerous to watch them do that.

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/16/ ... p_state_to


Trump being filthy seems a separate problem from emergent widespread deep state apologism or sympathy.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:09 pm

Trump being filthy seems a separate problem from emergent widespread deep state apologism or sympathy.


sure it is...and the deep state will be here no matter who is president...surely trump is no solution for that...in fact he is making it oh so very easy for the emergence

is there no deep Russian state?

or is St. Putin above that

I doubt that the American citizens in Puerto Rico really care about our deep state right now..I think they would rather have someone that knows where Puerto Rico is!

Has Glenn ever mentioned who he thought was behind 9/11?


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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby liminalOyster » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:37 pm

seemslikeadream » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:09 pm wrote:is there no deep Russian state?


Is there? Interesting question actually. My under-educated impulse is to say "no, probably not." Because there's little need for it to be submerged, right? Authoritarianism and implicitly military/industrial rule are not so historically taboo as they are in the US. Russia doesn't have a surface-level ethos of transparency, platonic civil society and precious democracy. As best I can tell.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:44 pm

maybe Glenn knows :P

but then again if a whole lot of Americans already know there is an American Deep State....it really is no secret ...not so submerged here either
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby American Dream » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:00 pm

Hmm- let's see: where political murders, false flag counter-terror operations, heroin trafficking, money laundering, nuclear black markets, embezzlement, election-fixing, monopoly profiteering, sexual blackmail, black psyops, overt propaganda, gray psyops, destabilization operations, illegal/covert weapons (biological, chemical, sonic, EM etc.), cyberwarfare, special forces, fascists and international far right networks, drug cartels etc. meet the Russian State and Bourgeoisie, client states, military outposts, spy nests, mafias, political and business allies, etc, etc, etc, there you will find the tip of the vast iceberg that is the Deep State...
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:15 pm

liminalOyster » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:37 pm wrote:
seemslikeadream » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:09 pm wrote:is there no deep Russian state?


Is there? Interesting question actually. My under-educated impulse is to say "no, probably not." Because there's little need for it to be submerged, right? Authoritarianism and implicitly military/industrial rule are not so historically taboo as they are in the US. Russia doesn't have a surface-level ethos of transparency, platonic civil society and precious democracy. As best I can tell.


It's a question of concept or paradigm as well as empirically observable detail that we may or may not know.

Deep here does not mean hidden so much as permanent (or more permanent than the short duration of election cycles or current crises). Like the soil as opposed to an annual crop. And deep also in a psychological sense of things often unacknowledged, denied even as they are seen, elements of the "shadow side." The realm of the state (especially the national security state or as Althusser would call them the repressive agencies of the state) furthermore trails off into a parapolitical, quasi-state milieu, vast parts of which are hidden through clearance measures and secret budgeting, as well as just private operation/front groups etc., although plenty of that is also visible. And in every sector from schools to roads to finance, effectively state or sovereign powers are left to private capitalist enterprise or private-public bodies or quasi-state arrangements. (In fact, in what ways is capital not the state? If I have a billion dollars to "invest" in your town, tell me who is really the mayor.)

It can get very complex to map out. The short answer is yes. By whatever name or theoretical model (dual, deep, secret/hidden, para, quasi, hybrid, bureaucratic, privatized/capitalist, unaccounted sectors, shadow, network/collusory, national security state, MIC, palace cabal, etc.), of course the state power model in an oligarchic-capitalist Russia with a powerful national security sector and under the government of a former KGB guy is going to show the same kinds of shit.

.

SAW CROSS-POST WITH AD: That's an even better answer, isn't it now?

Does China have as much deep state or is that an example of things being more out in the open?

.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby liminalOyster » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:42 pm

Thanks Jack and ad. Two exceptional sets of thoughts. But I would argue the psychological experience within the USA of the deep state (which is yes of course neither geographically restricted or comprised of literally hidden nodes) might still be somewhat unique.

When the media organs within more repressive societies appeal to those society's ostensible values as *true* it seems maybe more widely understood as propaganda. When they do so here, we often still pretend it's true and basically a poetic aspiration to higher natured angels. Just seems the us capacity for cog dis is unparalleled.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:52 pm

Really big and rich place specializing in diversion and denial (D&D) to the point that this is its most successful industry globally. Sustains permanent war in theaters worldwide and an enormous war economy even as maybe 98% of everyone almost never perceives themselves as living on the homefront of this war (or connects that their own troubles are largely attributable to this war) except during ritualistic patriotic invocations usually associated with sports and entertainment events.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby SonicG » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:47 pm

That same Deep State that assassinated JFK et. al.,covered it up, the one that masterminded 911....That Deep State can't even foil a sleazy dim reality tv star? I guess it is kinda dismissive, but that is where this whole deep state wants war with Russia so is fighting tooth and nail to "smear" Trump? It isn't hard to look at how Trump really seems to have no problem with bombing NorKor, Iran, Afghanistan etc., but maneuvers behind the scenes on Russia, mealy-mouthing...To pretend that his desire to thaw with Russia is a great move to be heralded is all well and good, but Trump barely mentions it. Why doesn't he come out in front of the issue, announce open talks with the Russians, push bilateral trade agreements with them, etc?
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:08 am

It would not be "the" one deep state that did all that continuously for sixty years with institutional memory throughout. Such operations by definition would be illegal - one group of state actors attacking another part of the state - and compartmentalized so that other operatives within the same institutions would never know for sure what happened.

A desire to thaw with Russia has never actually been a priority for Trump. Just talk from him, not programmatic. It's the DNC-neocon-corporate media narrative that has constructed it into his supposed deep desire to be Putin's buddy. It's also constructed by critics of the duopoly, people who are otherwise smart (examples: Parry, Michael Hudson), who seem to take his occasional talk about peace with Russia at face value. It was also taken seriously by the Alt-Right, who see the Putin regime as white supremacist. But Trump? It takes great effort to continue to think he's anti-neocon or genuinely isolationist or ever meant anything for real other than that he will slam Mexicans and go to war wherever to "TAKE THEIR OIL." "America First" was always a sales pitch for marks, nothing more. Maximizing plunder for the billionaires on board, tax cuts, removal of all limits on capital, increased war budget, escalation of state violence against immigrants and blacks, and expansion of war were always program. Enemy for the latter irrelevant. The rest is whatever froth comes out of the huckster's yap while he's improvising schtick for the marks or attacking the reporters and other personal enemies.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby liminalOyster » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:42 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:08 am wrote:It would not be "the" one deep state that did all that continuously for sixty years with institutional memory throughout. Such operations by definition would be illegal - one group of state actors attacking another part of the state - and compartmentalized so that other operatives within the same institutions would never know for sure what happened.


I just watched Manhunt, the Unabomber series from Discovery now on Netflix US. Not very good but I was somewhat impressed by the amount of story time they gave to Ted Kaczynski's participation in the Murray experiments at Harvard. In further reading about them, I was interested to consider just how distributed the workings of CIA experimentations were and that very little "institutional memory" persists, according to those (including David Kacsynski) who have tried to investigate. Not just because of famously shredded documents, but also by the nature of the beast similar to what Jack describes. I bring it up only as an example of Jack's point - no doubt most people here are familiar with and also revile MK Ultra and see it as a huge undertaking yet it's interesting to consider how fundamentally distributed it was. Did sadists like Murray have much clue about the scope of what they were involved in? Did anyone? And what does it mean if noone did or noone does?

ps. There's probably another thread with some discussion of the series but I will just quickly say that the level of straight sympathy for Ted in that production is kind of nauseating.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby SonicG » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:59 pm

I really enjoyed that Unabomber series, mostly because I had been thinking about/relooking at the Unabomber. He got into a debate about how Zerzan and other modern prims had gotten things wrong...I suppose there was a bit of overplaying sympathy for Ted but I think it was great how they didn't shy away from MK Ultra or the pain and suffering he was responsible for...And ultimately, it seems pretty clear that that MK Ultra experiment really pushed him over the edge. Anyhow, it is a fascinating case from a lot of perspectives, not the least is how he managed to elude the FBI for so many years even with all the bold tells and hints he would leave.
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:37 am

JackRiddler » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:08 am wrote:

A desire to thaw with Russia has never actually been a priority for Trump.


absolutely ...the only priority for trump is saving his own blackmailed ass...and getting loans that U.S. banks would no longer give him

gotta save that 666 building his son in law owns


St. Putin wanted sanctions lifted...oil deal

resident trump’s pick to head the NSA, General Yellowkerk Flynn, communicates to Russian ambassador that the Trump administration will ease/lift sanction

side effect:
Why Mercer bought election: "IRS demandng $7 billion..back taxes frm world’s most profitable hedge fund"

Robert Mercer 7 Billion Reasons to Steal an Election
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40573&p=639997&hilit=Cambridge+Analytica#p639997

Trump Parscale Chart
Chart below displays open-source information showing organizations and people connected to President Trump and Brad Parscale as of June 2017. Source links are provided below the chart. Also see SCL/Cambridge Analytica chart and Rosneft-Trump-Putin chart.

Image

The world’s largest oil company, Exxon, and the world’s top oil producing nation, Russia, finalize a deal to drill in the Russian Arctic. Exxon and the Russian state oil company, Rosneft, sign $500 billion oil “exploration partnership” focused on Russian Arctic deposits
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby liminalOyster » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:36 pm

The Senate’s Russia Investigation Is Now Looking Into Jill Stein, A Former Campaign Staffer Says
The Senate Intelligence Committee has asked Green Party candidate Jill Stein’s campaign to turn over documents, a former employee says. Stein is expected to release them publicly as well.

Posted on December 18, 2017, at 4:54 p.m.
Emma Loop
BuzzFeed News Reporter
Washington, DC

The top congressional committee investigating Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election has set its sights on the Green Party and its nominee, Jill Stein, according to a former campaign employee.

Dennis Trainor Jr., who worked for the Stein campaign from January to August of 2015, says Stein contacted him on Friday saying the Senate Intelligence Committee had requested that the campaign comply with a document search.

Trainor, who served as the campaign’s communications director and acting manager during that time, told BuzzFeed News that he was informed of the committee’s request because during his time on the campaign, his personal cell phone was “a primary point of contact” for those looking to reach Stein or the campaign. That included producers from RT News, the Russian state-funded media company, who booked Stein for several appearances, Trainor said.

“Then I was told by Jill just to wait for further instructions,” Trainor said, adding that he was told the campaign would contact him in the next week with instructions, presumably from the Senate Intelligence Committee, for executing the document search, including precise search terms. That has not happened yet, Trainor said.

Trainor, who has done on-and-off work for Stein since formally leaving the campaign in 2015, said he is inclined to cooperate with the committee’s request but wants to first seek legal counsel. He said he believes Stein plans to comply as well and post the documents on her own website “in an effort to show complete transparency and kind of wage her own war against [...] what I imagine she thinks is an overblown investigation into collusion.”

Stein did not immediately respond to a request for comment. A spokesperson for North Carolina Sen. Richard Burr, the committee’s chairman, declined to comment.

Stein has not previously been a major focus during the Russia investigations on Capitol Hill, but her name has surfaced occasionally. The Senate Judiciary mentioned her in a letter to Donald Trump Jr. in July, requesting copies of “all communications to, from, or copied” to the president’s son that related to Stein and a long list of other, more prominent figures in the investigations.

Trainor said he would be surprised if Stein ever communicated with Trump Jr., who participated in an interview with the Senate Intelligence Committee behind closed doors for more than nine hours last Wednesday. “Don Jr. has been incredibly cooperative with the committee,” Burr said Thursday.

Stein’s name has also come up in the context of a 2015 dinner hosted by RT in Moscow. Stein sat at the same table as Russian President Vladimir and Michael Flynn, who served as Donald Trump’s first White House national security adviser until he was ousted just 24 days into the job. Flynn recently pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador and agreed to cooperate with special counsel Robert Mueller, who is conducting a criminal investigation into potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

Trainor said he expects the Senate Intelligence Committee will want to know more about the Moscow dinner, but that he wasn’t employed by the campaign at that time and therefore wouldn’t have any documents related to the event. Stein has said that unlike Flynn, she was not paid to attend the dinner and paid for her own travel costs.


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Jill Stein says nothing happened at her dinner with Vladimir Putin
The Green Party candidate says no money—or even words—were exchanged.
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Trainor said he believes the committee is primarily interested in Stein’s appearances on RT, “vilifying anyone who’s ever appeared on or talked with anyone on the RT network.”

A January assessment from the Intelligence Community on Russian election meddling called RT a “propaganda outlet.” And the Justice Department recently ordered RT to register as an agent of the Russian government.

Trainor, a who said he has made appearances on RT himself, contests that characterization. “There’s a lot of smoke around RT and not a lot of fire,” he said. Trainor also believes Intelligence Community assessment refers to his own documentary about Occupy Wall Street, though not by name, in a section about RT’s alleged attempts to “fuel discontent” in the US — something he called a “body blow.” He said the documentary, American Autumn, fits the description of the film cited in the assessment and was airing on RT at the time.

The Senate Intelligence Committee’s investigation is now entering the homestretch, with its leaders hoping to wrap up interviews with witnesses early in the new year and release a report before the primaries for the 2018 midterm elections begin.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/emmaloop/the-s ... -into-jill
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Re: The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

Postby Sounder » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:16 pm

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