Positive Thinking

[Freitag]

I'd like to get some thoughts on this topic. I've been exploring it for a while now.

Is "positive thinking" just optimism, or is it a magical superpower? I guess it depends on how you define it. But I want to push the limits and see where exactly we cross the line into "woo".

Let's start with some examples of uncontroversial benefits:

• Can open you to new experiences/opportunities
• Can improve your relationships with others/social skills
• Can energize you to take action
• Can make you emotionally resilient
• Can make you plan for the future because you believe you have one

(I'm not specifying a particular flavor of Positive Thinking here; it could be anything from New Age stuff to traditional religion or even psychotherapy.)

So far we're on solid ground. But now let's cross from the conscious into the subconscious mind. Is it true that the subconscious mind is a powerful tool you can use to your advantage? I hardly think it can be denied. But how does it work? And is it "woo"?

The subconscious mind is a problem-solving machine. Have you ever tried to remember something that's on the tip of your tongue? You eventually give up in frustration, only to have the answer pop into your mind ten minutes later. The subconscious was working on the problem the whole time. A similar phenomenon is having the answer to a problem come to you in a dream. So far so good; no "woo" yet. But how can you make use of this problem-solving machine?

The subconscious will try to answer any problem you pose to it. It's suggestible; if you tell it you want to be a millionaire ten years hence, it will come up with ideas to actually make it happen. But the subconscious mind is guarded, and to imprint something upon it, certain techniques must be used.

Visualization. Intense visualization, especially during a relaxed state (e.g. before you fall asleep). The more emotionalized the image, the better. See and feel the results you want as if you already have them. The subconscious will take it as a problem to be solved, and work to bring you to the endpoint you are visualizing.

Repetition. A personal story might serve here as an example. ~Six years ago, I decided to dig myself out of debt and devise/execute a plan to become Financially Independent as soon as possible. This was a major change in my approach to life. I'd never set financial goals of any kind, never mind a 15 year plan. I came across the idea on one of the many FI blogs, and passionately consumed all the information I could for a good couple years. The idea of FI (not having to work for a living) set my brain on fire. To be sure, there was plenty of emotionalized visualization involved. But there was also a lot of repetition. By reading and thinking so much about this single topic, over and over and over, it finally just sank into my brain that this is my goal now; I'm really doing this thing. I pounded the idea into my mind through brute force. Now I can't imagine myself taking any other path, even though it would be easier.

Conditioning. You can also access your subconscious mind using techniques such as NLP (e.g. classical conditioning).

Okay, so far we're using the subconscious mind to problem-solve. Is it "woo" yet? I guess it depends. Are we just getting ideas from the subconscious? Or are we using it as a magnet to "attract" opportunities related to our goals? I think this is the "woo" line.

A major claim of the Positive Thinking/New Thought movement is that, once you start practicing it, the Universe tends to meet you halfway. Opportunities appear like magic. Strange coincidences happen. You become pronoid.

But is it real? Do we live in an associative Universe? Can you prove to me it's not woo?

Prove? LOL. No.

But consider, for example, the placebo effect. A belief in the mind, despite being false, can have inexplicable real effects on the human body. A reverse example would be a Voodoo curse. Despite being a mere mental suggestion, it can really make a person waste away and die.

In this light, subconscious beliefs seem a little more powerful. But this evidence only goes so far, because however miraculous the effects, it still involves the body, a system of which the mind is a part. The mind-body connection, although not fully understood, has long been acknowledged [by whom?].

[...]

[I'm going to cut off at this point, this took me too long to write. I'm going to post this as-is, though, with a second part forthcoming.]

[82_28]

Of no help as to the question, my mantra has always been if something seems like it is going right that definitely means something is wrong. So I start looking around. I am actually not a pessimist. But I always become suspicious when I sense the damn my luck has changed feeling.

However, I do try and cheer people up and always have but again, my mantra, is always nothing is ever going to get any better, but you are a beautiful soul, etc. It's no consolation but yeah, we're all fucked.

[Joe Hillshoist]

2 thoughts.

1. If there is any "woo" involved you may find it by observing sporting performances. Even then it might turn out not to be woo but to be something as yet unconsidered.

2. Allegedly sigil magic is a very useful method of accessing the unconscious. Apparently it works better if you immerse yourself in the subject the way you did regarding your financial independence under that headin "reception".

[BenDhyan]

This Zen piece points out the difficultly of trying to frame reality in this world, subjective and objective, in dualistic terms like positive and negative....the karma of good and evil...damn Adam and Eve ..

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.

Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.

To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.

- Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

[Freitag]

2 thoughts.

1. If there is any "woo" involved you may find it by observing sporting performances. Even then it might turn out not to be woo but to be something as yet unconsidered.

2. Allegedly sigil magic is a very useful method of accessing the unconscious. Apparently it works better if you immerse yourself in the subject the way you did regarding your financial independence under that headin "reception".

Excellent points Joe. Anyone who's been in "The Zone" can tell you how much performance improves when the subconscious mind takes over and you "get out of your own way".

Sigil magic is the direction I want to go in the next writing installment. The power of the human mind seems to be at the center of occult magic, secret societies, etc. down through the ages. It's explicitly described in the Bible. There are Christian authors in the Positive Thinking genre like Norman Vincent Peale and Joseph Murphy. So when I discover a topic that's at the core of Occultism, Christianity, shamanism, etc. down through human history, it just feels like I'm on to something. The ultra-logical science type will hand wave this aspect of it away, calling it "woo". But I think there's something to it. The power of the human mind is fascinating to me; I love exploring Inner Space.

(In a recent thread, Mr. Rex called for more "original writing" at RI. I don't know if my thoughts on this topic count as such but nevertheless I'll try to put them down in as thought-provoking manner as I can.)

[dada]

Adding some thoughts to the mix.

First, I agree with Ben. I think his post provides context, or a baseline. Like calibrating our instruments at 'zero' before beginning an experiment or investigation.

I do think there is something to the power of positive thinking, but that it isn't some sort of objective, universal law that overrides all others. There are other factors at play. Job is "tested by god." How gracefully he handles his trials is the true measure of the man.

Going further on this line, "positive thinking" isn't simply self-programming to make your dreams come true, it's also staying positive in the face of setbacks and failures. Believing in yourself. I think this sort of positive thinking has more value.

But as for the power of positive thinking in the "magical superpower" sense, I think there's something to be said for the placebo effect theory. Dumbo thinks he needs a 'magic feather' to fly. He may not have even tried to, without being tricked by the mouse.

I think there's more to be said for focus, determination, hard work. By hard work I don't mean tedious, mind-numbing toil, I mean work on oneself. Self-criticism, mental and physical discipline. Concentration, attention, willpower. You want to quit smoking, you just quit cold turkey. Or you drag it out, use hypnosis, the patch, cut down in steps. You're not fighting addiction, you're fighting the untrained mind.

The mind is a monkey, it must be trained. A trained mind makes its own luck. You get into a flow, into the zone, you're on fire, ready to take advantage of any opportunities in real time, spontaneously. In that frame of mind, positive thinking is a hinderance, a distraction. A concentration-breaker.

Some other qualities I find more valuable than positive thinking: Patience, prudence. Insight, good for problem solving. Awareness, balance, and reactive speed, good for changing strategies on the fly. Courage. Dare to take a chance.

Something else I'd point out. The subconscious mind responds to more than words and images. It reads intention, emotion. One can curse and swear, say 'ooh, stupid universe, I hate you,' and not really mean it. The subconscious mind will know the difference. Depending on your relationship with your subconscious, it may even like it. I'm just saying there may be more to it, words and images may be more of a limitation then a help in these matters.

To summarize, I think the power of Positive Thinking, along with all other methods that can be categorized as "low magic," is at best a toy, at worst a crutch for childlike, superstitious minds, and elephants with big ears.

Of course I'm well aware that this is my belief. I naturally think my belief is better than others. For me, at least. I think that's natural, when you have a positive attitude and a healthy competitive spirit.

[Freitag]

"low magic,"

By all means tell me about high magic while I'm working on another post. I want to get a birds' eye view of the whole Human Potential / Mind Power type thing.

[dada]

High magic is difficult. It concerns the transformation of the self, penetration of the mysteries, unity with the infinite spark in you. Understanding what Meister Eckhart meant when he said, "God is me, yet I am not god."

A simple comparison between two works, one on low magic and one on high magic might suffice to give an idea:

The Lesser Key of Solomon, or the Goetia, is a popular book of sigil magic. You have a specific desire, you look up the proper spirit to conjure to help you with it. There's seventy two spirits to choose from. Solomon liked to collect them in jars for fun. (Funny thing about the Goetia, the sigils are upside-down. Using an upside down sigil would be like trying to call someone by dialing their phone number backwards.)

The Greater Key of Solomon the King is a popular book of high magic. The first chapter begins, "Solomon, The Son Of David, King Of Israel, hath said that the beginning of our Key is to fear God, to adore Him, to honour Him with contrition of heart, to invoke Him in all matters which we wish to undertake, and to operate with very great devotion, for thus God will lead us in the right way."

Of course that can be dangerously misunderstood, to disastrous effect.

But let's say we don't misunderstand. We are enlightened beings, not interested in strapping bombs to ourselves, bringing on the rapture, or building settlements. We take both books as speaking metaphorically. The lesser key is for playing games, like a players guide for a video game. The greater key is an aesthetic guidebook, offering suggestions on how to turn time itself from a game into a practice. Add a bit of artistry to the living of life.

I may not be explaining this very well. Here are a few quotes from C.E. Rolt's excellent introduction to his translation of The Divine Names of Dionysus the Aeropagite, to further illuminate or confuse, as the case may be. I recommend reading the whole introduction, it's really pretty good.

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0450-0525,_Dionysius_Areopagita,_On_The_Divine_Names_And_The_Mystical_Theology,_EN.pdf

"The doctrine of Unknowing must not be confounded with Herbert Spencer’s doctrine of the Unknowable. The actual terms may be similar: the meanings are at opposite poles. For Herbert Spencer could conceive only of an intellectual apprehension, which being gone, nothing remained: Dionysius was familiar with a spiritual apprehension which soars beyond the intellect. Hence Herbert Spencer preaches ignorance concerning ultimate things; Dionysius (like Bergson in modern times) a transcendence of knowledge. The one means a state below the understanding and the other a state above it. The one teaches that Ultimate Reality is, and must always be, beyond our reach; the other that the Ultimate Reality at last becomes so near as utterly to sweep away (in a sense) the distinction which separates us from It. That this is the meaning of Unknowing is plain from the whole trend of the Dionysian teaching [...] It is even possible that the word “Unknowing” was (with this positive meaning) a technical term of the Mysteries or of later Greek Philosophy, and that this is the real explanation and interpretation of the inscription on the Athenian altar: “To the Unknown God.”"

Also:

"Now for the actual experience of Unknowing and of the Negative Path that leads to it. The finest description of this, or at least of the aspiration after it, is to be found in the following passage from the Confessions of St. Augustine:

“Could one silence the clamorous appetites of the body; silence his perceptions of the earth, the water, and the air; could he silence the sky, and could his very soul be silent unto itself and, by ceasing to think of itself, transcend self-consciousness; could he silence all dreams and all revelations which the mind can image; yea, could he entirely silence all language and all symbols and every transitory thing—inasmuch as these all say to the hearer: ‘We made not ourselves but were made by the Eternal’—if, after such words, they were forthwith to hold their peace, having drawn the mind’s ear towards their Maker, and He were now to speak alone, not through them but by Himself,so that we might hear His word, not through human language, nor through the voice of an angel, nor through any utterance out of a cloud, nor through any misleading appearance, but might instead hear, without these things, the very Being Himself, Whose presence in them we love—might hear Him with our Spirit even as now we strain our intellect and reach, with the swift movement of thought, to an eternal Wisdom that remains unmoved beyond all things—if this movement were continued, and all other visions (being utterly unequal to the task) were to be done away, and this one vision were to seize the beholder, and were to swallow him up and plunge him in the abyss of its inward delights, so that his life for ever should be like that fleeting moment of consciousness for which we have been yearning, would not such a condition as this be an ’Enter thou into the joy of thy lord’?”

This passage describes the Via Negativa in terms of aspiration drawn (we cannot doubt) from experience. The soul must cast all things away: sense, perception, thought, and the very consciousness of self; and yet the process and its final result are of the most intense and positive kind. We are reminded of Wordsworth’s—“Thought was not; in enjoyment it expired""

Last one:

"The clearest and profoundest analysis of the state, based also on the most vivid personal experience of it, is given by Ruysbroeck. The two following passages are examples.

“The spirit for ever continues to burn in itself, for its love is eternal; and it feels itself ever more and more to be burnt up in love, for it is drawn and transformed into the Unity of God, where the spirit burns in love. If it observes itself, it finds a distinction and an otherness between itself and God; but where it is burnt up it is undifferentiated and without distinction, and therefore it feels nothing but unity; for the flame of the Love of God consumes and devours all that it can enfold in its Self.”

“And, after this, there follows the third way of feeling; namely, that we feel ourselves to be one with God; for, through the transformation in God, we feel ourselves to be swallowed up in the fathomless abyss of our eternal blessedness, wherein we can nevermore find any distinction between ourselves and God. And this is our highest feeling, which we cannot experience in any other way than in the immersion in love. And therefore, so soon as we are uplifted and drawn into our highest feeling, all our powers stand idle in an essential fruition; but our powers do not pass away into nothingness, for then we should lose our created being. And as long as we stand idle, with an inclined spirit and with open eyes, but without reflection, so long we can contemplate and have fruition. But, at the very moment in which we seek to prove and to comprehend what it is that we feel, we fall back into reason, and there we find a distinction and an otherness between ourselves and God, and find God outside ourselves in incomprehensibility.”

Nothing could be more lucid. The 'moi' is merged in the Godhead and yet the 'ego' still retains its individuality un-merged, and the existence of the perfected spirit embraces these two opposite poles of fusion and distinction."

[BenDhyan]

^^^ Thanks dada, nice post..

From the Hermetic tradition..."If anyone has a spiritual eye, let them go forth from their body to behold the Beautiful, let them not seek to see shape or colour but rather that from which these things are created, that which is quiet and calm, stable and changeless, that which is one, that which issues forth from itself and is contained in itself, that which is like nothing else but itself."

Iow, reality beyond the conceptualization of reality.

[Grizzly]

Bob Wilson wrote about thought experiments as well as tricks of the trickster or more more importantly practicing 'pronoia'.

Also, the book, entitled : Pronoia:* Pronoia Is the Antidote for Paranoia, Revised and Expanded: How the Whole World Is Conspiring to Shower You with Blessings by Rob Brezsny

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pronoia-Antido ... 1556438184

Book Overview

Human beings are selfish, small-minded, violence-prone savages, civilization is a blight on the earth, and the rising tide of chaos ensures that everything's going to fall apart any day now. Right? Wrong, says Rob Brezsny. In Pronoia Is the Antidote to Paranoia, he declares evil is boring, the universe is friendly, and life is a sublime gift created for our amusement and illumination. This buoyant perspective is not rooted in denial. On the contrary, Brezsny builds a case for a "cagey optimism" that does not require a repression of difficulty, but rather, seeks a vigorous engagement with it. The best way to attract the blessings that the world is conspiring to give us, he insists, is to dive into the most challenging mysteries. This witty, inspiring how-to shows how any reader can become "a wildly disciplined, fiercely tender . . . lustfully compassionate Master of Rowdy Bliss." The newly revised and significantly expanded—by more than a hundred pages—edition of Pronoia is now available (ISBN: 978-1-55643-818-9).

[Freitag]

High magic is difficult. It concerns the transformation of the self, penetration of the mysteries, unity with the infinite spark in you. Understanding what Meister Eckhart meant when he said, "God is me, yet I am not god."

A simple comparison between two works, one on low magic and one on high magic might suffice to give an idea:

The Lesser Key of Solomon, or the Goetia, is a popular book of sigil magic. You have a specific desire, you look up the proper spirit to conjure to help you with it. There's seventy two spirits to choose from. Solomon liked to collect them in jars for fun. (Funny thing about the Goetia, the sigils are upside-down. Using an upside down sigil would be like trying to call someone by dialing their phone number backwards.)

The Greater Key of Solomon the King is a popular book of high magic. The first chapter begins, "Solomon, The Son Of David, King Of Israel, hath said that the beginning of our Key is to fear God, to adore Him, to honour Him with contrition of heart, to invoke Him in all matters which we wish to undertake, and to operate with very great devotion, for thus God will lead us in the right way."

Of course that can be dangerously misunderstood, to disastrous effect.

But let's say we don't misunderstand. We are enlightened beings, not interested in strapping bombs to ourselves, bringing on the rapture, or building settlements. We take both books as speaking metaphorically. The lesser key is for playing games, like a players guide for a video game. The greater key is an aesthetic guidebook, offering suggestions on how to turn time itself from a game into a practice. Add a bit of artistry to the living of life.

I see the difference between the two ideas but I'm not sure the "low magic" you describe is the same as Positive Thinking. (Which is understandable because I didn't really define it.) I am certainly a fan of mysticism, which is what your "high magic" sounds like.

Your perspective comes from the opposite side of the issue that I've been considering. My starting point was the ultra-rational scientific type who says "positive thinking is well and good but it's just psychology; there's nothing magical about it". This type can get very triggered from this subject. So I wanted to proceed step-by-step through Positive Thinking to see if I could find the tripwire, the point which triggers our scientist friend, where we cross into "woo". But you're coming from the other end, the mystical end, where rationality has no place, and telling me I haven't proceeded far enough down the line. Well I may or may not arrive there; this thread is a work in progress.

I want to clarify something. Are "high" and "low" magic different subjects entirely, or are they points along a continuum? In other words can a "high" magician perform "low" magic in the same way a black belt in karate can do what a yellow belt can do, because they've proceeded farther down the same path?

[dada]

I see the difference between the two ideas but I'm not sure the "low magic" you describe is the same as Positive Thinking. (Which is understandable because I didn't really define it.) I am certainly a fan of mysticism, which is what your "high magic" sounds like.

Your perspective comes from the opposite side of the issue that I've been considering. My starting point was the ultra-rational scientific type who says "positive thinking is well and good but it's just psychology; there's nothing magical about it". This type can get very triggered from this subject. So I wanted to proceed step-by-step through Positive Thinking to see if I could find the tripwire, the point which triggers our scientist friend, where we cross into "woo". But you're coming from the other end, the mystical end, where rationality has no place, and telling me I haven't proceeded far enough down the line. Well I may or may not arrive there; this thread is a work in progress.

I want to clarify something. Are "high" and "low" magic different subjects entirely, or are they points along a continuum? In other words can a "high" magician perform "low" magic in the same way a black belt in karate can do what a yellow belt can do, because they've proceeded farther down the same path?

Yes, "coming from the opposite side of the issue" was the effect I was going for. Although I think our ultra-rational friend is very religious in his own way, kind of a "dogmatic materialist." Someone with a true scientific mind is willing to experiment, put aside preconceptions, and keep an open mind. Not so quick to define things.

But I see your point. It may well be that methodical, rational inquiry leads to the non-rational, and it may not. But the idea is to take it step-by-step, find the woo-line, if there is one, and I've jumped ahead. I hope my perception hasn't interfered with the experiment too much, in a quantum mechanics-type way. I'd be curious to see this woo-line, myself.

I was categorizing "high" and "low" magic by the results desired. It may be that the two-category system simplifies things too much. I'm open to the possibility.

And to clarify, they are points in a continuum. But we start in the middle, and can go low or high any time at will.

Although if you go high, low looks like a game. Not that there's anything wrong with games. People play games as a hobby. Solomon "collected spirits in jars," that was his hobby. In the hands of a balanced individual, a hobby is a fun, positive part of the character. For an unbalanced individual, a hobby can become an unhealthy obsession. It's good to keep things in perspective.