As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

https://www.discogs.com/Billy-Joel-Storm-Front/master/75442

Postby IanEye » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:14 am

Image

Mister President, why are fire trucks always red?


Nordic » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:13 pm wrote:Seems to me the establishment is now OK with Herr Trump. They've completely dropped all the stories about him
being a Russian agent since he let loose the dogs of war and became an MIC Man.


IanEye » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:59 pm wrote:
Your internet skills need work.


Your consolation prize:



“The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time & Patience.” - Billy Joel


.




some love is just a lie of the soul
a constant battle for the ultimate state of control
after you've heard lie upon lie
there can hardly be a question of why


.
User avatar
IanEye
 
Posts: 4863
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (29)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby Heaven Swan » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:37 am

On R.I. I'm relentlessly hearing that the mainstream media is waging a crusade against Russia and ignoring home-grown election problems like gerrymandering, etc.

I don't buy this reasoning for two reasons-- 1) I'm constantly hearing reporting on NPR and quite a bit in the New York Times about domestic election tampering. If you add Democracy Now! (Amy Goodmans' program) the chorus is deafening.

If you say that this isn't mainstream media, well, an indispensable question is--why are people restricting their news gathering to network TV news? We probably have the most options ever to find information (internet and some radio). If people are as WILLFULLY ignorant as you say they are (and I'm not convinced), whose fault is that?

And if you are basing your assessment of the landscape in Russia/ election-influencing to these ignoramuses then shoving your assessment down our throats, I have to wonder what your agenda is.

Don't you realize that humans are capable of seeing more than one cause to a problem? That we could consider both homegrown voting machine tampering and Russian meddling as problems?

At most, your outrage should be aimed at the MSM and their coverage, which is not the same as the objective facts of Russia's links with DT or Russia's campaign to influence the elections of other countries.
"When IT reigns, I’m poor.” Mario
User avatar
Heaven Swan
 
Posts: 634
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby 0_0 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:04 am

Every big power is trying to meddle with foreign elections, always have always will, USA the most. The only things that's new imo is a large part of the american media and establishment are now trying to use this given to delegitimize their own democratically elected president because he's of the opposing party.
playmobil of the gods
0_0
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby The Consul » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:46 am

Nordic » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:28 pm wrote:
Unless you think the whole Magnitsky Act and everything associated with it is a load of bullshit


It is a load of bullshit.

In what way?


Unless you think everything we have heard in the west about Putin is ridiculous propaganda and that he is a legitimate statesman ...


Again, yes, everything we have heard in the west is ridiculous propaganda.

Yea, he is a legitimate statesman.

These aren't "beliefs", they are facts.

The big question everyone should be asking, especially people as smart and talented as The Consul, and others here, is why would you believe other than the facts?



If what you say is true, then it's ALL propoganda and there are no facts.
Like they say, you want to know the truth, avoid having any opinions. Because of this I will probably only ever regard the truth with suspicion depending on who is delivering today's contest of fact.
I view election fraud with the same concern as Putin.
I think HRC is dangerous, though not as much as DJT and with either, war is a cost of doing business and a sign of grandeur.
It is easy to say DNC/dems failed (and they did) without mentioning influence of Koch/Mercer cabal.
As I mentioned in my rant, I have no doubt this whole campaign is a Mindfuck Inc. Operation. However, I do believe the only thing that protects us is the constitution, and what these rat bastards (Kochs) want more than anything is to destroy regulatory governance. I fear that as much as Putin. I grew up in a place where the Robber Barons were unchained. Evil knows no silker shirt than a boss who writes the laws and a crew who bow down like beaten whores who've been told there will be no more pay.

Magnitsky act is bullshit? How so?

And I agree it is a distraction. And I have said before the media floated DJT up like a big baloon and now the descent in flames will only provide better ratings because their whole scheme is dying (45 knows this and was prepared). Almost all the schemes are dying. That's what schemes do. It's the new yellow journalism. And we are in Eco's Ur-Fascism right now. And nobody, but nobody, could ever convince me that Donald Trump is anything but a fascist and his movement needs to be stopped asap, my brotherly droogs, or we wont just be trying to tread shit, we'll be ought but crusty patties under the jackboots of the post truth nirvana.
" Morals is the butter for those who have no bread."
— B. Traven
User avatar
The Consul
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Ompholos, Disambiguation
Blog: View Blog (13)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby SonicG » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:28 pm

I grew up in a place where the Robber Barons were unchained.

Yes...the flipside of what I mentioned...Autocratic rule without economic growth and minimal equality...well, look no further than Mexico, ruled by the PRI party for some 70 years until it all came crashing down with a blue-blooded neocon who was corrupt as fuck...Salinas. I lived in Mexico City under Salinas. I loved it, love Mexico, have tons of intelligent knowledgeable worldly Mexican friends so it was sad to them strapped with a government full of base corrupted soulless fucks...


Jesus Gutierrez Rebollo was a Mexican general who became a drug czar whose career ended in disgrace thanks to his arrest and conviction for aiding a powerful drug cartel. The general, one of the highest-level officials to have been convicted of drug-trafficking in Mexico, was hailed as a seasoned general of “impeccable integrity”.

But his celebrated career, which peaked when President Ernesto Zedillo appointed him head of Mexico’s anti-drug agency, crumbled two months later when police arrested him in February 1997. He was found to be living in a luxury apartment owned by cocaine kingpin Amado Carrillo Fuentes, also known as the “Lord of the Skies.”

Zedillo became the candidate for the PRI (following Salinas term, which he finished normally) after the first candidate was assassinated in a barrio of Tijuana...

Oh, and Salinas' brother...
In February 1995, Raúl Salinas was arrested and charged with masterminding the murder of José Francisco Ruiz Massieu, the deputy leader of the PRI ruling party. Salinas was the former brother-in-law of Ruiz Massieu, who had been married to Raúl's sister Adriana. In January 1999, Salinas was found guilty and sentenced to 50 years in prison (later reduced to 27.5 years). In June 2005, Salinas had his conviction overturned by a judicial panel and he was released from prison.


While Clinton shrugged...Why? NAFTA...
Last edited by SonicG on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"a poiminint tidal wave in a notion of dynamite"
User avatar
SonicG
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby SonicG » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:39 pm

Wow..breaking news on the eighth meeting member!
Citibank turning a blind eye to blatant money laundering.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2000/11/29/b ... -easy.html

They did the same in the case of Raul Salinas, eventually getting busted for it...
"a poiminint tidal wave in a notion of dynamite"
User avatar
SonicG
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby brekin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:58 pm

The Consul wrote:[quote="[url=http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?p=640954#p640954]
As I mentioned in my rant, I have no doubt this whole campaign is a Mindfuck Inc. Operation. However, I do believe the only thing that protects us is the constitution, and what these rat bastards (Kochs) want more than anything is to destroy regulatory governance. I fear that as much as Putin. I grew up in a place where the Robber Barons were unchained. Evil knows no silker shirt than a boss who writes the laws and a crew who bow down like beaten whores who've been told there will be no more pay.


Yup. One only has to look at the EPA today (literally today) and the dismantling before your eyes by the Trump Apparatchik Pruitt of decades of safeguards, institutional knowledge, and protections.
That is one major front of the war against people that is happening which subsequent administrations will bemoan and hand-wring about but also take advantage of. It seems the US industry-gov has decided it likes the environmental/workers rights approach of Russia, China, India, etc. much more than what has been worked out here. Many will cheer this in industry and the trades, until their friends, relatives and they themselves start getting stricken with higher rates of cancer, sick building syndrome, work place accidents and fatalities, etc. Welcome to the Gulag Mar-a-Lago.

Image
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby The Consul » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:17 pm

Water you can't drink. Air you can't breath. Food full of poison. House full of toxins. No health care. No living wage. No workplace protection. No ability to sue. No public protest. No science (unless religious filtered). As little education as possible (unless religious filtered).

But WAR lots of WAR and we all get to sit back and watch the pissing match between maybe 20 fuckwads to see which one gets to be the first trillionaire. Believe me, it will be so fun to watch it will make your head spin. It will be fantastic, a new America! Trust me, it will be entertaining as Hell.
" Morals is the butter for those who have no bread."
— B. Traven
User avatar
The Consul
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Ompholos, Disambiguation
Blog: View Blog (13)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby 82_28 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:10 pm

While hysteria is palpable for those who somehow give a shit still, those who are really worried are following along with what they "have" not what they know. What they have seen is real. The veracity of the existence of this situation will never go away. Will we ever know if any of it is true or happened as advertised? No. To have a final determination on what has caused this in which we speak will immediately be cast upon with partisan doubt, hate crimes that merit a shrug because they have become hyper-normal, malfeasance by those "in charge" met with the hatred of a certain incompetent coach on a certain incompetent team you still love for some reason. It is phenomenologically in play and exists no matter how janky and even standard the reasons were for how we got here.

People are going to believe what they are inclined to. People will be ruled by hate or love or worse -- rote programming. Hysteria will continue to trickle both from above and below much as it is now. It plays like a script or plot as it is easier to accept that those administering the drama must be doing so because they know better and have the interest of the partisan tribe at heart. Enemies are delineated. Even if you are smarter, educated, stronger, peaceful, skeptical, curious, honest (blah blah) it will not matter because they "win" even though there is no they to speak of. We are the they to them. As this carries on apace it will simply become more acceptable until it latches on to whatever social fabric it is we think we have. Until there is no more hysteria -- just another day steeped in a capricious and primitive society that now has the power to palliate, recognize your face, your smell, your language habits, your genetic identity and brutally destroy through a dandy police state apparatus given the same information everyone else is via algorithm and predictive programming and racism.

As to Russia, I don't care myself. As to Trump, I want him gone. I certainly do not think the melodrama you describe, Nordic, happening here at RI that is, admittedly however, really easy to find online elsewhere.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11194
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby brekin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:04 pm

mentalgongfu2 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:55 am wrote:
Again, yes, everything we have heard in the west is ridiculous propaganda.
Yea, he is a legitimate statesman.
These aren't "beliefs", they are facts.

Nordic, if you are still reading, where do you source these facts? As presented by yourself, they are merely assertions. Seriously, I want to know what Oracle you are using to sort wheat from chaff here so I can check it out myself.
No question there is some hysterical anti-Russian propaganda out there, but where can one read the supposed truth on Putin?
Interesting how loudly Democrats laughed at Romney's claim in 2012 Russia was America's greatest foreign threat compared to now, but that doesn't change anything about Putin's history. Is an ex-KGB agent more trustworthy and noble than an ex-CIA agent? But I digress.


Yes, I think Nordic answers/exemplifies his own questions.
What has gone wrong?

1. Absolutistic terms
2. All-ness fallacies
3. Either-or fallacies
4. Ownership and command of "the facts".
5. Privy to the "Truth" and secret knowledge.
6. Narcissistic disdain, dehumanization, and condescension of ones peers (a.k.a. the herd, lemmings, sheeple)
7. Apocalyptic and high stakes thinking.
8. High disgust/low empathy orientation.
9. Urgency for action over communication.
10. "Awakened" vs. trance orientation framing.


Nordic wrote:
The big question everyone should be asking, especially people as smart and talented as The Consul, and others here, is why would you believe other than the facts?
Looking back on these days, it is going to be very fascinating, and embarrassing as hell for most, to contemplate how, and why, the greatest mass hysteria to ever overcome the American people occurred. Because that is the biggest and most disturbing aspect of this entire story. Even 9/11 didn't hypnotize everyone and turn them into non-thinking lemmings quite to this extent. And hell, that was legitimately traumatizing, what with passenger planes crashing into buildings in broad daylights and thousands sacrificed in a diabolically brilliant mind-fuck.

What the excuse this time? There is none. It's SO FUCKING WEIRD.
Hopefully sooner than later people will snap out of it. But then most will not want to admit they were so easily manipulated. That is, if we haven't cheered our way into a nuke war with Russia and gotten ourselves turned to radioactive dust.And I'm sure it goes without saying that this is why I can't participate here. People who should never have fallen for this hysteria and propaganda have fallen for it.And it's weird.And disappointing.Bye.


One of my pet peeves, (dropped in the "words and phrases you hate" thread I believe) is: "The fact of the matter is.."
That is the politicians sleeping sickness. (Almost Obama's mantra during every press conference, "Folks, the fact of the matter is.." ad nauseum.)

So, Folks.. the fact of the matter is... "fact" is a much abused concept and word.

USAGE OF THE WORD "FACT": A Dialogue

Has anyone seen a fact?
-You can't see facts.
I can see' a dog and that is a fact.
-If you mean you can see a dog is a fact, that may be correct, but
I cannot see that fact. If you mean the dog is a fact, that is in-correct.
There is a dog in front of me, and that is a fact.
-Fine, but I cannot see it.
You can't see the dog?
-I can't see the fact that there is a dog there.
Alright, look at the following: There is a dog right there.
-I see it.
Aha! You see a fact.
-Hm?
I put down "There is a dog right there," and that is a fact, and you
said you saw it.

-The statement is not a fact although what it says is a fact.
And you can't see what it says?
-No.
Look at it again. It says, "There is a dog right there."
-I see that in the sense that I see the statement and I see it in the sense that I understand what it says, but I do not see what it says
in the sense of visual perception. I cannot see, or touch, or do any-thing to what it says -or to a fact.

You can't do anything to a fact? You can hide them, reveal them, find them.. .
-H-m-m. Let's see. Seems to me you do that sort of thing with facts, not a fact. I have heard of juries finding facts, but never a fact. Sure, we speak of a finding of fact or a fact finding, but that's
a different idea. We could say, "one of the facts that was found,"but that does not mean the one fact was found; it is a fact among others which were found.

Well look here. Suppose I'm a law teacher. I say, consider the following facts: "Smith threw a rock at Jones, but Jones ducked and the
rock hit Brown." Then I say, "Under those facts, Smith is liable for battery to Brown." Then I say, "Now let's change a fact. Let's say that Smith hit Green instead of Brown." I just did something to a fact. I changed it.

-Seems to me you changed the facts, not a fact. But I don't see how you can change a fact. If something is a fact, it is unchangeable.
You can change what you say about it, but you cannot change it.
I think I have you!
-Oh?
You changed the referent on me. The statements I made concerning Smith, Jones, Brown, and Green were facts. You shifted to talking about things which are facts. There are statements which are facts and things which are facts.
-There are no things which are facts. It is not the thing which is a
fact. A tree, or a dog, or a riot is not a fact.
Wait a minute. I say, "The students are uneasy and about to burn
down the building. That's a fact we have to face."

-Well, now that is an interesting.. .
And another thing. You said I cannot change a fact, but you played
with the word "it." You said, "If something is a fact, it is unchangeable.
But "it" refers to "something" and not to "fact." I can change a fact but not something.

-Nice try, but perhaps "it" refers to both "something" and to "fact."
Of course you can change something. You can cut a dog's hair, cut down a tree, and so on. But if something is a fact, then you cannot change it.
Perhaps, but how about that fact you have to face, the student unrest.
-That's a little trickier. I am not facing the student unrest, but the fact of student unrest or that there is student unrest."Fact" is referring to a state of affairs, or better yet, it's being used
in a statement that is just a way of talking.

Well, one last try. Back to my statement about Smith, Jones, Brown, and Green. Is that a fact?
-You can say, "Here are the facts," or "Take these facts," or 'These
are the facts."
Well, can't you see them?
Maybe you cannot see a fact, but you can see those facts.

-I've never heard anyone talk that way. It just doesn't make sense
to talk that way.
But if I were to hand you the statement of facts, I could say, "Look at
these facts."

-In that sort of case, you could even say "I saw the facts," but not,"I see or saw a fact."

http://www.generalsemantics.org/wp-cont ... robert.pdf
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)


Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby norton ash » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:18 pm

There is a picture of a dog right there. >>>
That is a fact. He's made of pixels and gutta-percha... that's partially true.

And how are ongoing international meetings of influencers, capitalists, criminals, and money-launderers a 'campaign'? These reports are apparently not fake news if the Trump family admits to the meeting(s). The media may be reveling in it, but they're not making it up.

And it fucking stinks. I wish I could enjoy the great unraveling more, but it just feels way too dangerous. Too many crooks, liars and patsies in plain sight who don't react kindly to being cornered. But maybe this octopus will dry up in the sunlight.

Shit is fucked-up and bullshit.
Zen horse
User avatar
norton ash
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Canada
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby The Consul » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:11 am

The film The Magnitsky Act Behind the Scenes shows up on YouTube but is restricted by copyright.

Does anyone know of a way to view this film?

There is a pay site but I'm unfamiliar with it & don't want to give fininfo.
" Morals is the butter for those who have no bread."
— B. Traven
User avatar
The Consul
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Ompholos, Disambiguation
Blog: View Blog (13)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:03 am

If I owed millions of dollars to Russian mobsters? I'd be scared shitless.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7411
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: As Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails ...

Postby brekin » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:26 pm

Elvis wrote:If I owed millions of dollars to Russian mobsters? I'd be scared shitless.


If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests