Why do people apologise for the USA?

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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby SonicG » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:14 pm

May as well add to the chaos...Has this been posted somewhere?
Why is the Intercept apologizing for the FBI? OK they aren't but...kudos to Greenwald for running it since it seems to go against what he has been arguing pretty vociferously...

THE FBI ROUTINELY ABUSES ITS POWERS BUT THE TRUMP INVESTIGATION HAS BEEN BY THE BOOK
Trevor Aaronson
December 20 2017, 1:14 a.m.
“THE FBI HAS become America’s secret police.”

Gregg Jarrett was just getting started. It was December 6, and the Fox News legal analyst was a guest on Sean Hannity’s show. They were kicking off what would become the newest right-wing talking points about Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation of Donald Trump’s presidential campaign.

“Secret surveillance, wiretapping, intimidation, harassment, and threats,” Jarrett continued. “It’s like the old KGB that comes for you in the dark of the night, banging through your door.”

“By the way, this not a game,” Hannity interjected. “This is not hyperbole you’re using here.”

“No. Ask Paul Manafort,” Jarrett replied, referring to the FBI’s search of the former Trump campaign manager’s home. “They came for him and broke through his front door.”

“And if it can happen to him, Gregg,” Hannity offered.

“It can happen to all of us,” Jarrett continued. “Absolutely.”

This message — that the FBI is overly aggressive and politically motivated — is cropping up again and again on Fox News, bellowed by right-wing pundits and elected officials like Rep. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn., and Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi. A Fox commentator, Todd Starnes, even asked point-blank, “Was the FBI weaponized to take down the Trump presidency?” A chyron on the network was yet more succinct: “A coup in America?”

All of this carries forward the rhetoric of a president who has tweeted insults at the FBI since his election. On December 3, for example, Trump tweeted that the FBI’s “reputation is in Tatters — worst in History!” In his latest burst in the past week, Trump told reporters on the South Lawn of the White House, “It’s a shame what’s happened to the FBI.” The context is quite obvious: The president and his supporters are worried that Mueller, a former FBI director, will find reasons for impeachment, and they’re on the attack to undermine the credibility of the FBI and the special counsel.

Right-wing media and politicians aren’t entirely wrong about the FBI. It is a secret police that bangs down people’s doors, follows Americans, intercepts digital communications, digs through trash, and harasses and threatens potential informants or targets of criminal investigations. In fact, civil rights activists and left-wing groups have been complaining about this for more than 50 years. And since the 9/11 attacks, Muslims in the United States have been subjected to an unprecedented level of intrusive surveillance. A common joke in mosques around the country: “Whenever I pray on Friday, I just assume the man next to me is an FBI informant.”

While it’s entirely true that the FBI has few checks on its power, right-wing media did not rouse itself until allegations emerged that the Trump campaign colluded with Russian intelligence agents. What’s amusing about the right’s sudden anti-FBI hysteria is that little evidence suggests Mueller’s investigation has been anything but by the book.
https://theintercept.com/2017/12/19/fbi ... n-mueller/
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby Elvis » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:24 pm

Oops! I got the times wrong. I was writing in haste. :wink



Jerky » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:55 pm wrote:
Elvis » 22 Dec 2017 02:48 wrote:Why did you wait more than an hour to post it?


You might want to check those numbers again, there, Elvis.


I've noted my mistake in an addendum to the post.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40800&p=648759#p648759
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby Karmamatterz » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:59 pm

Apologize for liking cheeseburgers? Fuck that. You elitist caviar snobs can sip your expensive wines and dine on delicacies whilst you drone on about your romance with socialism. I love a good juicy cheeseburger, and sometimes with a side of fries drizzled with vinegar. Are you next going to bash apple pie? Always the glass half empty.

What country isn't fucked? What country has the perfect social and government model? There are none and never will be, ever. The chart comparing the U.S. to Iran is so not relevant. How about compare the U.S. to every nation that has existed as far as history has been recorded? Let's be fair about this. Slavery wasn't invented in the USA. You Europeans, Asians and Africans had some very successful slave trades and excelled at butchering each other for centuries before your ancestors came to North America to exploit it.

As a matter of fact, in recent history Europeans are more responsible for the murder (via your wars) and enslavement (via communism) of more people just in the last 100 years.

Add a slice of bacon to the cheeseburger mofos.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:06 pm

I would like the author of this OP to say one just one negative thing about Putin ....he asks demands so much from the rest of us
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:21 pm

Karmamatterz » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:59 pm wrote:Apologize for liking cheeseburgers? Fuck that. You elitist caviar snobs can sip your expensive wines and dine on delicacies whilst you drone on about your romance with socialism. I love a good juicy cheeseburger, and sometimes with a side of fries drizzled with vinegar. Are you next going to bash apple pie? Always the glass half empty.

What country isn't fucked? What country has the perfect social and government model? There are none and never will be, ever. The chart comparing the U.S. to Iran is so not relevant. How about compare the U.S. to every nation that has existed as far as history has been recorded? Let's be fair about this. Slavery wasn't invented in the USA. You Europeans, Asians and Africans had some very successful slave trades and excelled at butchering each other for centuries before your ancestors came to North America to exploit it.

As a matter of fact, in recent history Europeans are more responsible for the murder (via your wars) and enslavement (via communism) of more people just in the last 100 years.

Add a slice of bacon to the cheeseburger mofos.


I do beg your pardon, I nodded off there.

Image

This Rene Rostaing Côte-Rôtie is simply sensational, I must say. Or shall I ask Alfred to bring you a [sniffs] "Bud"?
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby Sounder » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:48 pm

I would like the author of this OP to say one just one negative thing about Putin ....he asks demands so much from the rest of us


But there is no need SLAD, you have those bases covered ten times over, -in three feet of sand.

I do apologize for the US, it had a lot of promise until around 1913. I like so many things about it, the country that is, not the corporation.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:01 pm

Nearly all of the responses have been exactly as I had anticipated: 1) instant prickly defensive identification with the US state; 2) rampant whataboutery. "OK, We killed a few folks, but hey, so did you/they/he/she!" There is only one actual mention of the USA in Karmamatterz's entire considered response, and it's a gem: "Slavery bad, yeah, sure, but Egypt! Aztecs! Brits!" (If Europeans weren't so busy stuffing themselves with snails' legs they might bother learning some history.)

It's clear who's in charge of the class here. Seven decades of US slaughter and global hegemony must be ignored until I have first told the tale of the Peloponnesian War. Then I'll be assigned Cain & Abel, followed by Gilgamesh & Enkidu, by which time Washington will have nuked Pjongjang. But then, nobody's perfect and everything's relative. (Europeans should read some damn philosophy.)

What really got your goat was the desecration of the flag, for which I apologise sincerely. Excusez-moi, m'sieur.

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#cheeseburger-eating attack-monkeys
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:11 pm

Sounder » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:48 pm wrote:
I would like the author of this OP to say one just one negative thing about Putin ....he asks demands so much from the rest of us


But there is no need SLAD, you have those bases covered ten times over, -in three feet of sand.

I do apologize for the US, it had a lot of promise until around 1913. I like so many things about it, the country that is, not the corporation.



Unlike you and Mac I post about the bad of the USA government and Putin ......you two can never find a negative thing to say about Putin......answer why that is please....is he the saint you portray him to be?



Let me count the ways
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:31 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:.....you two can never find a negative thing to say about Putin


It is, how you say, difficile. Monsieur Putain is a gentleman of flawless moral character, perhaps even a saint. How else could he have become top oligarch? But as Clive James once said of Bjorn Borg: If his eyes were any closer together they'd be on top of each other.

(De rien, Madame. I like to please a lady, especially one as charmante as yourself.)
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby Sounder » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:32 pm

SLAD, I definitely do not march to the beat of your drums.

Moving on.

Back in the day of airplane hijackings there was a little noticed happening toward the end of that sequence. A person 'hijacked' an airliner, in Seattle IIRC and made three demands; he said, 'I want a fast car, a head start and three cheeseburgers''.

The authorities were going to have none of this so men came through the belly door and shot the poor special needs person in the head.

I still think about this person quite a lot, so symptomatic of the American condition.

I feel so bad for he and the many others like him.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:43 pm

Love that excuse I will definitely use that from now on in replies to you and Mac


Will note at this time not a negative word about St. Putin from neither Mac or Sounder......and I will return in kind any posts aimed at me in the future......keeping this screen shot and moving on

So very curious they can’t bring themselves to come up with one tiny ittsy bittsy blemish

Sounder » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:32 pm wrote:SLAD, I definitely do not march to the beat of your drums.

Moving on.

Back in the day of airplane hijackings there was a little noticed happening toward the end of that sequence. A person 'hijacked' an airliner, in Seattle IIRC and made three demands; he said, 'I want a fast car, a head start and three cheeseburgers''.

The authorities were going to have none of this so men came through the belly door and shot the poor special needs person in the head.

I still think about this person quite a lot, so symptomatic of the American condition.

I feel so bad for he and the many others like him.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby Sounder » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:58 pm

Slad wrote...
that's your interpretation but of course you are wrong



Slad wrote...
.I try very hard to oppose the violent imperialism but I am but one individual





Sounder wrote...
Huh, your Putin fetish would seem to some to be giving aid and support to US imperialism. But hey, maybe you are right and we are exceptional and know much better than foreigners about how to run their countries, just look at Iraq, Libya, Syria and Ukraine, where those Ruskies do nothing but mess things up for us.



Of course I am wrong? So it will be easy for you to say how it is that what you reflect is not a(nother boring) reflection of western exceptionalism that makes enemies for profit and gore.

Anyway carry on, I'm sure there is nothing here that can't be cured with another avalanche of NED funded subversion that spends all its time making shit up about dastardly deeds coming from the other side. Gotta be proud to be an American, being an ecco chamber for the NED, and whoever else produces this slander for a living. Find more enemies, only then can the System become healthy. Vampires all.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:05 pm

You do know that if trump was taking mob money from some other mobster I wouldn't be talking about Putin at all....it is not my fault trump is involved with a certain mobster from a certain country

I take a criminal where I find him

CLEAN UP THAT POST

I was NOT replying to you in that post you quoted......DISINGENUOUS

get the quotes right or don't post at all..stop playing the edit game

duly noted as of 12/22/2017 not one bad thing to say about St. Putin

let me fix part of that for you...can't get the snark if you CHOSE to edit my post

OBFUSCATION is the way when you can't won't come up with one tiny Putin pimple

seemslikeadream » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:43 pm wrote:oh ...now I see we are being asked to apologize for the government of the USA for the wrong it has done in our name....OK I can do that sorry for the misunderstanding of the OP...... maybe Mac could have made that clearer

As a citizen of the United States, I apologize for my country's violent imperialism.....I try very hard to oppose the violent imperialism but I am but one individual

I will take the apologize for my country's violent imperialism oath



SLADSounder, I definitely do not march to the beat of your drums.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:23 pm

MacCruiskeen » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:13 pm wrote:
stillrobertpaulsen » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:49 pm wrote:Usually because they're being paid to do so. Not much of a secret there.


Yes, directly or indirectly. That includes nearly 100% of those who call themselves journalists, nearly all academics, and a whole army of spooks. Then there are millions of openly fascistic Republicans plus a multitude of politer, hipper and more discreetly fascistic Democrats, some of whom cover their apologies for the US with expressions of vague regret, some of whom say, "well, X is a dictator and We have to remove him." .

All these categories overlap heavily, of course. What unites them all is self-interest, at any cost to the planet.

Finally, and negligibly, there are those known as The Poor, i.e., those who actually create the wealth. If they're abroad, then no one listens to them. If they're at home, ditto, or else they are simply too frightened and exhausted and demoralised to speak at all.


Very good summarization of the guilty parties, Mac. As far as The Poor are concerned, I would defend their negligible responses (this is admittedly self-interest on my part, since I am still uncertain how my wife will be able to be covered for health insurance in 2019, I consider myself part of that group) on the grounds that they have been narcotized into acceptance of their position of being between a La-Z-Boy and a hard place. The workers in my country are trapped in the reality of a Brave New World: for their labor, they receive just enough to be able to consume their soma (smart phone, widescreen TV, Budweiser, and yes, those notorious cheeseburgers) but are denied enough to keep them coming back for more. See George Carlin for a funnier take on this phenomenon.

But beyond simply elaborating on the answer to your question, for those of us who are frightened, exhausted and demoralized but still speaking out, what can be done to stop this and then apologize to the planet? I have been saying for years, "Unless you change the way money works, you change nothing." Yet my blog posts, my letters to Congress, my marching to protest tangentially related issues has not coalesced around a movement addressing our root problem. Sometimes I really feel like a disconnected island, politically speaking, looking at a mainland I used to be a part of, but is now too strange to bond with. I've always considered myself somewhere between Green and Libertarian - though I abhor enough of both parties as they currently exist in the USA to stay away from joining them - but I also recognize that any effort to try to do away with fiat currency, fractional reserve banking and compound interest must be a global effort fought at a local level. But because the tangential issues seem more pressing/galvanizing/sexy/whatever, the root cause gets buried. So I get more frightened, exhausted and demoralized.

Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Why do people apologise for the USA?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:36 pm

Thanks, Robert. It's getting too late here for me to respond properly to that excellent post but i'll try to do so tomorrow.

Sometimes I really feel like a disconnected island, politically speaking, looking at a mainland I used to be a part of, but is now too strange to bond with


I think that's a near-univeral phenomenon among the no-longer young, especially in the 21st century. My own metaphor: I feel like a molecule of H2O in a kettle approaching the boil. "The Left" has become a useless category, I think. It denotes not so much a broad church as a broken umbrella, no longer fit for purpose. Example: Women in the UK -- including many really good young socialists and lesbians -- are now being called rightwingers (and even Nazis) for resisting the sinister assertion that men can become women by fiat and thereby demand entry to any women's space at any time. It's astounding that this kind of post-real bullshit can become law, especially so quickly, and it's even worse that Corbyn supports it. Like the demand that GhaddafiNoriegaPutin be humanitarianly removed, it's imperialism masquerading as liberation.

As for America: an amazing place, full of amazing landscapes, amazing cities and amazing people. I wish I had seen more of it. I had a recent visit from an old friend from Boston, 18 years older than even I am and still fighting the good fight, though now mainly just by being a good man with a sense of humour who keeps his head clear, laughs at nonsense, and cares for his family and friends. This too is a political act, of course, the most important one of all. He is as American as Frank Capra or Michael Parenti or George Carlin or Jimi Hendrix, and like all of them he would scorn the idea that loving what he loves requires him to worship the Flag.

I wish you a happy Christmas.
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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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