Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy attack

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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:49 am

JackRiddler » 15 minutes ago wrote:
Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:20 am wrote:People that participate in catapulting the propaganda are warmongers. Plain and simple.


Radically untrue. Most of them are deceived. And it's not always obvious what is war propaganda.


Absolutes and hyperbole don't serve well, whether "plain and simple" or "radically untrue" - though I tend to agree with both of you re. this topic. So I dunno about "most" of anyone, but agree by extension that it is not always obvious who is deceived.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:56 am

Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:20 am wrote:
People that participate in catapulting the propaganda are warmongers. Plain and simple.


Jack wrote,,,
Radically untrue. Most of them are deceived. And it's not always obvious what is war propaganda.


Are the deceived then not guilty for their actions because they are deceived?

The repetition is what makes it obvious, although I will admit, not to some.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Rory » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:46 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43326734

Meanwhile, a doctor who was one of the first people at the scene has described how she found Ms Skripal slumped unconscious on a bench, vomiting and fitting. She had also lost control of her bodily functions.

The woman, who asked not to be named, told the BBC she moved Ms Skripal into the recovery position and opened her airway, as others tended to her father.

She said she treated her for almost 30 minutes, saying there was no sign of any chemical agent on Ms Skripal's face or body.

The doctor said she had been worried she would be affected by the nerve agent, but added that she "feels fine".


IMG_20180315_084536_045.jpg


Salisbury Firemen made of the same strong stuff their Doctors are.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:55 am

Salisbury poisoning: Nerve agent feared to have spread as police officer might have carried traces home

Police and army seal off DS Bailey's home
Army service personnel seal off Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey's home Credit: Patrick Sawer

Patrick Sawer, senior reporter
15 MARCH 2018 • 3:39PM

Concern for the family of the police officer who went to the aid of the poisoned Russian spy has grown after Army and police sealed off his street and began work to remove his car for examination.

Speculation grew that Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey may have carried traces of the nerve agent Novichok home with him after attempting to resuscitate Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

Police erected a wide cordon around DS Bailey’s street, in the village of Alderholt, 20 minutes drive from Salisbury on Thursday.

At the same time, soldiers set up tents and began unloading equipment such as boxes and tables on a village green yards from his semi-detached house in a quiet cul-de-sac.

Firefighters in chemical protection suits were seen preparing to begin the operation to remove the officer's family car.


Police guard the home of Sergeant Nick Bailey beside an Army vehicle Credit: Jeff Gilbert for The Telegraph
An Army crane was driven into position mid-morning in apparent preparation for loading DS Bailey's car, which may have also been driven by his wife Sarah, 37, onto a low-loader.

Neighbours said two cars were taken from the family’s driveway, one belonging to DS Bailey and the other to his wife. They said they were "wrapped" and removed by officers in hazmat suits. The family were not believed to be staying at the property on Thursday, but had been at the address in the days after the attack.

Residents were being allowed to and from their homes, but only accompanied by a police officer. Neighbours said the operation began in the early hours, with police arriving in substantial numbers and sealing off the streets around his home.

DS Bailey, who was among the first to attend to Mr Skripal and his daughter Yulia, before possibly examining their red BMW, where it is thought the nerve agent Novichok may have been placed, was initially discharged from hospital after a check up.

He later admitted to Accident and Emergency at Salisbury District Hospital feeling extremely unwell.


Police and ambulance vehicle outside the property in the village of Alderholt Credit: Patrick Sawer
DS Bailey is now described as in a stable condition recovering from the effects of the nerve agent. The Skripals remain in a critical and life threatening condition.

His neighbours expressed alarm on Thursday at the latest turn of events.

There were questions as to why it had taken more than a week since the attack for DS Bailey's car to be removed.

Roger Hooke, 79, a retired school maintenance worker, said: “We woke and saw lots of Army and police all over the place. It’s a bit disturbing.

"Why is there so much concern about his house when it all happened in Salisbury? There’s a lot that we don’t know and it’s worrying.”


Wiltshire Constabulary Police Sergeant Nick Bailey
A woman whose back garden overlooks DS Bailey’s cul-de-sac, said: “It’s very distressing to find this sort of event coming to your doorstep like this. We are worried, but all we can to is let the police get on with their investigation.”

The Metropolitan Police said it would not comment on specific searches or aspects of the operation.

A spokesman said: "We are pursuing various lines of inquiry at various location in connection with the incident in Salisbury."

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Theresa May visited Salisbury on Thursday to speak to emergency services, members of the public and local businesses.

She visited local businesses before surveying the scene at the Mill pub and the bench where the Skripals were found.

Mrs May spoke about the impact of several police cordons on businesses in the city while being escorted by Wiltshire Police Chief Constable Kier Pritchard and Salisbury MP John Glen.


Theresa May with Wiltshire Police Chief Constable Kier Pritchard in Salisbury on Thursday Credit: Toby Melville /PA
Mrs May said: "We do hold Russia culpable for this brazen and despicable act that has taken place on the streets of what is such a remarkable city."

She added: "I have come down today to say thank you to our emergency services, our police and health services, and everybody at Porton Down and Public Health England who have been working so hard."

Mrs May met members of the emergency services and military at Salisbury's Guildhall, including Pc Way and Pc Collins, two Wiltshire Police officers who were first to respond to the emergency call.

PC Collins told the Prime Minister they had believed the incident was "a routine call".

Mrs May said: "You had no idea what you were dealing with. Thank you - what you did was what police do day in and day out.

"A routine call and you don't know what's there. You did a great job."

Mrs May said: "What is important in the international arena - and we have taken this into Nato, into the United Nations, take it through into the European Union - is that allies are standing alongside us and saying this is part of a pattern of activity that we have seen from Russia in their interference, their disruption that they have perpetrated across a number of countries in Europe."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... e-officer/



A police officer who was poisoned by a nerve agent in the attack on a former Russian spy and his daughter is sitting up and talking in hospital as the hunt continues for the culprits.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 45261.html



INTERNATIONAL LAW: SELF-DEFENSE

U.K. Prime Minister's Speech on the Russian Poisoning of Sergei Skripal: Decoding the Signals

By Matt Tait Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 11:19 AM

On Monday, U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May said that it was “highly likely” that the Russian government was behind the poisoning and attempted murder of former Russian military intelligence officer Sergei Skripal on British soil using a Russian-developed nerve agent from the “Novichok” neurotoxin family. According to May, if the Russian government makes no “credible response” by the end of Tuesday, “the U.K. would conclude there has been an ‘unlawful use of force’ by Moscow.”

The United States’ words from the White House podium were much less careful and more clumsily delivered. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson’s statement on Monday night was helpful, but his subsequent summary dismissal Tuesday morning completely derails any signals it was intended to send.

May wasn’t speaking to a domestic audience: Her speech was aimed at the international community. The United States needs to hear it for what it is—and it doesn’t have a lot of time to get its act together and plan how to respond.

Diplomacy involves careful language and signalling; the language, style and delivery of the U.K.’s the message requires some decoding.

First, this is a statement by the prime minister delivered from the despatch box in Parliament. In diplomacy, the bearer of a message, where it is delivered from and the delay of delivery act together to form a diplomatic volume of sorts. For example, when the U.S. government failed to publicly attribute the 2016 Democratic National Committee hack to the Russian government until Oct. 7 of that year, and even then, the announcement wasn’t made by the president from the White House podium, it was widely seen internationally as a show of weakness by the United States.

May did not make this mistake. Here, May made the statement herself, from the prime minister’s despatch box—the parliamentary equivalent of the White House press podium—within a few days of the attack. The despatch box is the podium from which the prime minister speaks to Parliament and the world. This is the U.K. beginning its response at maximum diplomatic volume.

Next, the prime minister’s choice of words is important. She says the U.K. assesses it to be “highly likely” that the Russian government was behind the attack. “Highly likely” is the U.K. intelligence community’s highest level of confidence. Attributions are never certain, so the U.K. intelligence community never says “X happened.” Instead it says “we assess it is highly likely that X happened.” The U.K. intelligence community doesn’t get more certain than that. This too is a signal: This is the U.K. saying its threshold to be convinced of the attribution has already been made. It needs no more proof to act.

May then explains that Skripal was poisoned by a “military grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia, . . . one of a group of nerve agents known as ‘Novichok’.” She is laying out the basic groundwork for their attribution to a nation state, and more specifically, Russia. At Porton Down, the U.K. has one of the world’s best forensic labs for analyzing chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. With the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko this lab not only established that Polonium-210 was used, but also which reactor in Russia it came from.

When the U.K. makes strong attributions about chemical weapons, the rest of the international intelligence community sits up and pays attention.

Finally, May says magic legal words that will be keeping foreign ministers in NATO up at night: “If there is no credible response by the end of Tuesday, the U.K. will conclude there has been an ‘unlawful use of force’ by Moscow.” The words “use of force” are legal terms concerning armed conflict, or jus ad bellum. She does not use them here by accident. The U.K. is stating loudly and unequivocally that the Russian government’s use of chemical weapons to murder people in the U.K. isn’t being treated as a law-enforcement matter. It’s an armed attack, and the U.K.’s response will be justified under the doctrine of self-defense.

We must be careful not to exaggerate what this means. Such a response would, of course, need to be necessary and proportionate; the U.K. and Russia are not on the path to war—nobody in any capital wants such a thing. But these are extremely strong words from May, and foreign ministries of European and NATO allies will be paying attention.

The choice of a deadline on Tuesday at midnight is also no error: The U.K. has played this game before. The U.K. does not expect Russia to make credible steps to work out what happened. This is a notional deadline—for the benefit of the U.K.’s allies—to communicate that Russia was given an opportunity to respond and didn’t take it.

The problem for the U.S. is that this is the U.K. operating at maximum signal, and the U.S. has so far only sent the press secretary to the White House podium and then proceeded to prevaricate over whether or not Russia was involved. The White House’s choice of words like “reckless and indiscriminate” might sound like loud signals to people in the White House press room, but what the U.S. should be doing is speaking with the State Department and drafting a statement for the president to deliver from the podium (or at least recognize that the U.K. isn’t just giving a speech).

The U.K. just gave a speech at the diplomatic equivalent of maximum volume saying Russia’s military tried to murder someone on U.K. soil with chemical weapons. The U.K. is treating this as an attack invoking the right of self-defense, and it will respond this week when Russia inevitably fails to meet the standard of “credibly responding” on midnight at Tuesday.

These signals are too strong to walk back. Whatever it does, the U.K. will want to act this week. The White House needs to sit up and take this seriously.

It’s running out of time to decide how to respond.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/uk-prime-mi ... ng-signals
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Rory » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:15 pm

Classic, copy pasta flood, response
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:35 pm

She said she treated her for almost 30 minutes, saying there was no sign of any chemical agent on Ms Skripal's face or body.

The doctor said she had been worried she would be affected by the nerve agent, but added that she "feels fine".


It's sad to think that this woman may be dead soon, if needed to maintain the evil Russian narrative.

I do wonder how it is she was allowed to speak to the BBC, or why the BBC did not have better instructions on how to sanitize their reporting.

This could be spurious, because then those firemen would be 'crisis actors', and only Alex Jones fanboys are stupid enough to believe in dross like that.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:53 pm

Classic, copy pasta flood, response


But you gotta admit, the strategy works, for now. At some point however more people will tire of living in their cave with the smell of candles and the delicately shaped bullshit used to cast the shadows.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Rory » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:13 pm

Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:35 am wrote:
She said she treated her for almost 30 minutes, saying there was no sign of any chemical agent on Ms Skripal's face or body.

The doctor said she had been worried she would be affected by the nerve agent, but added that she "feels fine".


It's sad to think that this woman may be dead soon, if needed to maintain the evil Russian narrative.

I do wonder how it is she was allowed to speak to the BBC, or why the BBC did not have better instructions on how to sanitize their reporting.

This could be spurious, because then those firemen would be 'crisis actors', and only Alex Jones fanboys are stupid enough to believe in dross like that.


I think it was sufficiently early in the act and response that they caught an unguarded person, one who hadn't been prepped or managed sufficiently. Since then things have tightened up and the story is that hundreds of people (nowhere near the act) need decontamination and monitoring.

Things have taken an odd, discordant tone all round. Mischief is afoot.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:42 pm

Rory wrote...
I think it was sufficiently early in the act and response that they caught an unguarded person, one who hadn't been prepped or managed sufficiently.


If it was a British or American op however, it does not seem likely she would have been left unmanaged.

Maybe Spectre did it or some man in the middle investment op that could count on an appropriate response from the Brit govt.

Well now at least this thread has something of interest in it.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:00 pm

Trump, May, Merkel and Macron issue joint statement blaming Russia for Sergei Skripal poisoning

Four leaders issue joint statement blaming Russia for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal.

The leaders say there is "no plausible alternative explanation" to Russia being to blame".

The statement follows days of diplomacy by Theresa May.

Statement comes as NATO meets to discuss the crisis.

LONDON — The leaders of United States, Britain, France and Germany have released a joint statement condemning Russia for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal in England last week.

Donald Trump, Theresa May, Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel all agreed that there was "no plausible alternative explanation" than that Russia was to blame for the attack.

The leaders called on Russia to "live up to its responsibilities as a member of the UN Security Council," adding that Russia's actions "threaten the security of us all."

The statement marks a significant ramping up of tensions with Russia and comes as members of the NATO council meet to discuss the crisis.

It also follows several days worth of diplomacy by May following an initial reluctance from the French and US government's to publicly attribute the incident to Russia.

On Wednesday May announced that Britain will expel 23 Russian diplomats from the UK following the attack.

Britain is also set to freeze the accounts of individuals close to Russian president Vladimir Putin, as well as suspend all high-level contact with the Russian government.

On Thursday UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson said Russia should "shut up" and "go away" and suggested that Britain was now in a "chilly" war with the country.

The joint statement in full

We, the leaders of France, Germany, the United States and the United Kingdom, abhor the attack that took place against Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury, UK, on 4 March 2018. A British police officer who was also exposed in the attack remains seriously ill, and the lives of many innocent British citizens have been threatened. We express our sympathies to them all, and our admiration for the UK police and emergency services for their courageous response.
This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War. It is an assault on UK sovereignty and any such use by a State party is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention and a breach of international law. It threatens the security of us all. The United Kingdom briefed thoroughly its allies that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible for the attack. We share the UK assessment that there is no plausible alternative explanation, and note that Russia's failure to address the legitimate request by the UK government further underlines its responsibility.
We call on Russia to address all questions related to the attack in Salisbury. Russia should in particular provide full and complete disclosure of the Novichok programme to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). Our concerns are also heightened against the background of a pattern of earlier irresponsible Russian behaviour. We call on Russia to live up to its responsibilities as a member of the UN Security Council to uphold international peace and security.
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-ma ... ing-2018-3
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Rory » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:06 pm

Sounder » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:42 am wrote:Rory wrote...
I think it was sufficiently early in the act and response that they caught an unguarded person, one who hadn't been prepped or managed sufficiently.


If it was a British or American op however, it does not seem likely she would have been left unmanaged.

Maybe Spectre did it or some man in the middle investment op that could count on an appropriate response from the Brit govt.

Well now at least this thread has something of interest in it.


My 2c is that it was poison but not some super complex deadly dastardly evil Soviet super nerve gas. And that the perps come from the large, extraordinarily wealthy expat Russian community in the UK, oligarch central.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Remington Steele, Dodgy Dossier, was related in some manner.

Mi5/6/007 were tipped off and involved to some degree, and that this was spun to ramp up The Russia Narrative, because of the benefits to the arms industry folk, and also the bumbling and collapsing Tory government - a sideshow to take people's attention off their incompetence would be very much appreciated at Number 10
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Rory » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:47 pm

IMG_20180315_124517.jpg


We'll, well, well. This is coincidence theory, 101.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_ ... etribution
Strike Back: Retribution is a ten-part British-American action television series, and serves as the sixth series and second revamp of Strike Back, with a new cast including Daniel MacPherson, Warren Brown, Roxanne McKee and Alin Sumarwata. The series premiered on 31 October 2017 on Sky One in the United Kingdom and 2 February 2018 on Cinemax in the United States.


Timing is delicious
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Jerky » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:18 pm

Vil Mirzayanov sounds like some kind of hero to me. How about you, Rory?

J.

THE SCIENTIST WHO LEAKED RUSSIA'S NOVICHOK CONSPIRACY

MOSCOW (AFP) -
Dissident Soviet scientist Vil Mirzayanov gained notoriety in the 1990s when he blew the cover on Moscow's secret experimentation with Novichok, the nerve gas used in the poisoning of a Russian ex-spy in Britain.

Mirzayanov had worked for almost three decades in the Soviet Union at the State Scientific Research Institute of Organic Chemistry and Technology.

After he was fired in 1992, he and another scientist wrote a newspaper article revealing how the government had developed deadly chemical compounds known as Novichok -- or "newcomer" in English.

Now 83 and living in the United States, Mirzayanov described the sophisticated substances used to make the Novichok agents which had been developed under a classified programme codenamed Foliant, or folio.

Novichok agents are binary chemical weapons, he said, which means that their potency only manifests itself after chemical synthesis of relatively harmless components.

Since the same chemical elements in Novichok are used to make pesticides, facilities producing these substances can easily be disguised as civilian factories, he wrote.

Mirzayanov said he had witnessed several scientists failing to regain their health after exposure to a Novichok-type agent.

"The damage it inflicts is practically incurable," he said in the article.

Asked this week about the March 4 poisoning of former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter, he was quoted as saying: "These people are gone -- the man and his daughter. Even if they survive they will not recover."

- Scientific 'conspiracy' -

In his memoirs published in Russian in 2002, Mirzayanov said his institute and others in the country involved in the chemical weapons programme continued their research even after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s and as Russia proclaimed disarmament and a ban on chemical weapons.

Binary bombs had been developed since the 1970s and were tested at a military base used for chemical weapons in a town called Shikhany in Russia's southern Saratov region and also in Uzbekistan, Mirzayanov wrote.

"Like hundreds of other scientists, I was participating in a conspiracy against the future convention on chemical weapons," he said.

He had been put in charge of controlling potential leaks of harmful chemicals used in the Foliant programme into the air and waterways.

His memoirs describe witnessing a relatively unsuccessful test of a precursor to Novichok-type agents based on a chemical named simply "Substance-33".

In the test, the substance was deployed in vapour form via a bomb dropped from a plane.

The Novichok agents were not listed in the eventual Chemical Weapons Convention because Russia kept them secret, Mirziayanov argued.

Mirzayanov became involved in Russia's nascent democratic movement and wanted to make his concerns about the chemical weapons programme public.

As a result of his dissident activities, he was fired from the institute. He then decided to write the whistle-blowing article in a Moscow newspaper along with another chemist, Lev Fyodorov.

They warned of poor safety standards at the Moscow facility and vast quantities of harmful chemicals stored elsewhere in Russia.

The article led the authorities to prosecute Mirzayanov for divulging state secrets. He was arrested in October 1992 and held for several days in Moscow's notorious Lefortovo prison, used by the security services.

His case was eventually closed in 1994 after considerable international pressure on the Russian authorities. Mirzayanov has lived in the United States since 1996.

Russia declared in 2017 that it had destroyed all of its chemical weapon stockpile.

Moscow has rejected accusations of involvement in poisoning Skripal.

by Maria ANTONOVA

http://www.france24.com/en/20180313-sci ... conspiracy
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby Rory » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:26 pm

Yes, I am a hero.
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Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att

Postby peartreed » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:54 pm

Those that doubt the Russian hand in the novichok poisoning are risking their own form of Reverse Russian Roulette, where the odds ultimately favor taking the bullet after all the spin.

Evidently the picking of nits by a few Brit twits still can’t debug all the evidence.

Russian defectors nearly die as assassins double down on Putin poisonings or, despite Trump’s man-crush on his Soviet Superman hero, when it comes to orgasmic delight at wrecking the West – the Russians are coming.
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