The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Elvis » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:11 pm

John Michael Greer, hm. Now I'm curious to read some of his books.

Going by his "Esc-Center" tract, I wouldn't call him a leftist or socialist—he is, after all, trying to escape those labels—but, judging by some book review blurbs, it looks like he has some interesting ideas.

Some of the blog comments point out the problems with interpretion of phrases like "Equality of Opportunity," and if "Esc-Center" catches on, it could be the right's ticket to, say, privatizing or ending welfare programs and Social Security. I don't like it. To put it one way, a little too much Ayn Rand, not enough Karl Marx.

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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:49 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:51 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:14 am wrote:
JackRiddler » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:26 am wrote:
- Many good people on this board have been captured ideologically by this manner of bullshit. You should get offline and go join groups like DSA and do some fucking good in the world.

.


Agreed. DSA desperately needs non-date-rapist males these days -- a real drought so far.


You working for Pepe now? I guess Krugman (the most soft-spoken pundit-demagogue you'll ever run into) might say the same kind of shit, given how shamelessly he boosted the Clintonian "Bernie Bros" campaign. But how totally constructive of you. Good thing you're here to warn about it, since insofar as it might be so, it would be a truly exceptional environment. Our society is otherwise so civil and respectful, especially in the treatment of women.

Maybe you're thinking of some incident or other, or some actual DSA chapter. I don't know about your corner, but DSA people in my neighborhood and city and many other places are mostly young women who are doing things like getting Ocasio elected, and the fellows I've met are totally okay. Hey, as far as I can see. Are you sure you're not confusing which group meeting you were at? Was it the incel support group?

(OH! BURN!!!)

.


Wait a minute. Is this some inside joke I’m not getting or are you implying that Wombaticus Rex, our former moderator is a fascist and and/or incel?

I hope this isn’t true but if it is, I’d like to point out that these kind of knee-jerk accusations are a big part of the problem.

With the trans-activists, the unfounded accusations escalated to threats and now have escalated to violent attacks.

PS it’s great to see that Wombaticus and dada are posting again. Welcome back.
"Bow to your oppressor and you will be destroyed. Dare to fight and you will liberate the world."
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby 82_28 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:22 am

I'm not fully getting it either, but I have the distinct feeling all was meant tongue in cheek but with heaps of truth. Both Mr. Rex and Mr. Riddler. Neither of those blokes wish any ill will on anyone ever.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:17 am

.

Elvis:
John Michael Greer, hm. Now I'm curious to read some of his books.


Yes, perhaps I should have called out the author more explicitly in the OP; Greer's musings are sprinkled throughout RI's recent/historical archives, however.

JackRiddler » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:58 pm wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:31 am wrote:Quite right. A recurring theme inherent to many of my comments here. Power attracts assholes. The higher profile the position, the greater the concentration/caliber of ahole(s). Humans have yet to get over that hump. Non-aholes tend to lack the aholery required to insert themselves into positions that require ahole tactics and unethical behavior to succeed/maintain power/influence, due largely to the flaws inherent to modern human mindsets. Catch 22.


We're all familiar with this but it's also too simple. Leaving it as a rule (as your joke with the graph implies) can breed hopelessness about it.* Stealing from Foucault among others (OMG! CULTURAL MARXIST POSTMODERN MAOIST GENOCIDE ALERT!!! ACTIVATE PETERSON SOFTWARE!), power is not a static structure or a simple flow from top to bottom. Power is expressed through a circuit, it is a verb not a noun, resulting structures change over time, revolutions of all kinds can happen on a much smaller scale than aliens or a global evolutionary jump. Power attracts sociopaths and institutions encourage sociopathy, but not everyone who ends up in an ostensible position of power (or who accumulates a lot of wealth) had to have been an asshole to get there, or acts equally as an asshole. (Some must act like assholes or lose the power; but how powerful is that, actually?) Power is also mobilizable from below, or from the sides. Etc.

.


*bold added

Indeed. Guilty as charged (the charge: laying on the satire too breezily. It's my reflexive response to an era fast approaching satire's demise, soon to be rendered indistinguishable from standard copy. Or are we there already?).
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby NeonLX » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:27 am

dada » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:21 am wrote:How about the Backspace Boys.


And, with that, I announce my presence with a hearty laugh.

I keep meaning to make my way back to RI and at least lurk. But there's this one mod, you see...
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:36 pm

Seems to me you're forgetting what you don't want to be reminded of:

Image
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:09 pm

Heaven Swan » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:49 pm wrote:
Wait a minute. Is this some inside joke I’m not getting or are you implying that Wombaticus Rex, our former moderator is a fascist and and/or incel?


No. Obviously not. Try reading what I write, instead of the parts you bold.

I am giving him shit because he's saying shit, in this case. I like him fine, he writes great stuff on this board sometimes. I found the Angleton article unforgettable.

Rory is also giving shit, with a story (unlinked, no details, thus only from one unreliable source for now, that source being Rory) of men being mean to a woman, as if it speaks to the "left." The difference being, this is every day and everywhere in almost every context in the U.S. and around the world, and a serious problem, but it is not a per-se "left" problem. It is a men problem. Ideologically, at least, the left opposes it. The right embraces it. It is programmatic for most tendencies on the right that feminists are bad, that there is no rape culture, that women's bodies should be controlled, that childbirth should be forced on them, that day care centers make serial killers, that women are naturally weepy and men get the job done, etc. Pretty much the opposite positions are programmatic, on the left, regardless of the kind of bad individual behavior that can be found everywhere else. To bring up some story of individual behaviors (uncited, unlinked, and not real as long as it's the unreliable Rory's trap talking, and no other source), it is distraction and derailing of the discussion, just like WR's hit-and-run comment: playing to stereotypes and (right-wing) prejudices about groups of people rather than actual progammatic differences. That's basically what Greer is serving up, and it may as well be out of Breitbart for his understanding of social movements or actual left groups. There is nothing whatsoever new in this kind of "centrist" move, it is a lazy way to get easy cheers from lazy thinkers.

What isn't being addressed here are the ideas of health care as human right, economic and social justice, ending mass incarceration, ending prohibition, ending empire, converting to renewable energies, cutting the military and spending on human needs, increasingly also MMT and a jobs for all program. These are left - generally speaking, progressive and socialist - ideas (Ending empire can also be found on the right). They are not Democratic party platforms, since, of course, at the top and official levels, except for a small minority, the Democratic Party is not leftist but basically the other right wing, neoliberal, imperialist capitalist party. Hillary Clinton is not remotely "the left" and the TV pundits playing "liberals" are just players, serving up right-wing politics as if it is oppositional.

.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:56 pm

Hi Neon! Just to be clear, the cartoon was directed to Belligerent Savant, not you.

Heaven Swan, please indicate that you have added emphasis to someone's words when you're quoting them. Thank you.

JackRiddler » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:09 pm wrote:
Heaven Swan » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:49 pm wrote:
Wait a minute. Is this some inside joke I’m not getting or are you implying that Wombaticus Rex, our former moderator is a fascist and and/or incel?


No. Obviously not. Try reading what I write, instead of the parts you bold.

I am giving him shit because he's saying shit, in this case. I like him fine, he writes great stuff on this board sometimes. I found the Angleton article unforgettable.

Rory is also giving shit, with a story (unlinked, no details, thus only from one unreliable source for now, that source being Rory) of men being mean to a woman, as if it speaks to the "left." The difference being, this is every day and everywhere in almost every context in the U.S. and around the world, and a serious problem, but it is not a per-se "left" problem. It is a men problem. Ideologically, at least, the left opposes it. The right embraces it. It is programmatic for most tendencies on the right that feminists are bad, that there is no rape culture, that women's bodies should be controlled, that childbirth should be forced on them, that day care centers make serial killers, that women are naturally weepy and men get the job done, etc. Pretty much the opposite positions are programmatic, on the left, regardless of the kind of bad individual behavior that can be found everywhere else. To bring up some story of individual behaviors (uncited, unlinked, and not real as long as it's the unreliable Rory's trap talking, and no other source), it is distraction and derailing of the discussion, just like WR's hit-and-run comment: playing to stereotypes and (right-wing) prejudices about groups of people rather than actual progammatic differences. That's basically what Greer is serving up, and it may as well be out of Breitbart for his understanding of social movements or actual left groups. There is nothing whatsoever new in this kind of "centrist" move, it is a lazy way to get easy cheers from lazy thinkers.

What isn't being addressed here are the ideas of health care as human right, economic and social justice, ending mass incarceration, ending prohibition, ending empire, converting to renewable energies, cutting the military and spending on human needs, increasingly also MMT and a jobs for all program. These are left - generally speaking, progressive and socialist - ideas (Ending empire can also be found on the right). They are not Democratic party platforms, since, of course, at the top and official levels, except for a small minority, the Democratic Party is not leftist but basically the other right wing, neoliberal, imperialist capitalist party. Hillary Clinton is not remotely "the left" and the TV pundits playing "liberals" are just players, serving up right-wing politics as if it is oppositional.


Rory » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:35 pm wrote:You're wrong about John Michael Greer, fwiw

And the young woman, DSA member who designed the brilliant graphics and campaign posters for Ocasio, quit due to harassment by DSA men of upstanding repute


Thank you for your comments, Jack. No verifying link was the first thing to come to mind after reading Rory's comment, quoted above. How about providing us with a link to your source, Rory? I'd appreciate being able to read it myself. Thanks.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:12 pm

I don't mind being bolded. We all do that. I mind it when the bold suggests a conclusion (in this case a jibe, not an assertion) contradicted already in the next sentence. But Heaven Swan was acting in good faith, I am certain. It's a misunderstanding and I am a mean sarcastic bastard sometimes.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:59 am

JackRiddler » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:12 pm wrote:I don't mind being bolded. We all do that. I mind it when the bold suggests a conclusion (in this case a jibe, not an assertion) contradicted already in the next sentence. But Heaven Swan was acting in good faith, I am certain. It's a misunderstanding and I am a mean sarcastic bastard sometimes.


I still don’t get the joke but I suppose it’s not important. And I don’t think you had mal intent, I just didn’t get it. And I bolded so it would be easier for you and others to see what I was referring to, not to ‘jibe’, something I don’t consider a good use of my time.

It’s not easy to discuss things on the internet I suppose, there’s the time lag, the tendency to respond to more than one poster at a time...
In any case when I critique the left I’m coming from a place of wanting to work things out and shed light on possible self-destructive tendencies, for example the attitude of rejecting a priori and taunting people on the right. My critique is not a defense of the totality of the right so in responding to me there’s no need to defend the totality of the left.

One of the problems with the whole political correctness issue is that until you’re targeted it may be hard to see the toxicity of the terrain. As long as it’s all abstract, the regressive and authoritarian tendencies of an influential portion of the left could seem mild or harmless. Try being targeted, and I believe that it could or likely will happen to you Jack since you are vocal think for yourself. Then you’ll understand what I’m saying.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:18 pm

I suppose a few of us would not mind such added emphasis, but I recall a recent argument between a couple over that very issue, and so, I felt it best to remind Heaven Swan to announce they have altered the phrase they're quoting in order to avoid such arguments now and in future. I doubt someone adding bold emphasis to one of my phrases would be of concern to me. I have done the same in the past.

It’s not easy to discuss things on the internet I suppose, there’s the time lag, the tendency to respond to more than one poster at a time...
In any case when I critique the left I’m coming from a place of wanting to work things out and shed light on possible self-destructive tendencies, for example the attitude of rejecting a priori and taunting people on the right. My critique is not a defense of the totality of the right so in responding to me there’s no need to defend the totality of the left.

One of the problems with the whole political correctness issue is that until you’re targeted it may be hard to see the toxicity of the terrain. As long as it’s all abstract, the regressive and authoritarian tendencies of an influential portion of the left could seem mild or harmless. Try being targeted, and I believe that it could or likely will happen to you Jack since you are vocal think for yourself. Then you’ll understand what I’m saying.


Quite frankly, Heaven Swan, my suggestion was just that, a suggestion, and has not a thing to do with right or left or "political correctness." To avoid unnecessary and all but pointless argument was my only intent. Accuracy is most important for one's credibility.

How have you been targeted by the Left? Has someone here targeted you? Please explain.
Surely you don't believe that I saw you as a target, because that would be quite ridiculous.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:52 pm

No, I wasn’t referring to your suggestion about bolding, which I appreciated. Clarity is important and any improvement in clarity is good in a venue (Internet discussions) where misunderstandings abound.

I’m at work now and don’t have much time but the targeting I mentioned has nothing to do with RI, where by in large I’ve felt welcomed by members who appear to be both left and right leaning.

If you go over to the ‘US Gov Rules on Gender Identity’ thread and read my past few posts in particular you can get an idea of what I mean. Radical Feminsts and lesbians have been under siege for the past few years by trans-activists with torrents of death and rape threats which are morphing more and more into violent attacks. And it’s the mainstream and the left that have been turning a blind eye and/or supporting the trans movement even when their threats and violence towards us are well-documented. (Important fact- there is not even one documented case of a feminist attacking a trans person )

Be sure and give a close look at the photos from the San Francisco Library ‘art exibition’ Which is made up of implemements such as pink baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire to beat up ‘TERFS’ and a bloody T-shirt with I Punch TERFS scrawled on it.



Iamwhomiam » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:18 pm wrote:I suppose a few of us would not mind such added emphasis, but I recall a recent argument between a couple over that very issue, and so, I felt it best to remind Heaven Swan to announce they have altered the phrase they're quoting in order to avoid such arguments now and in future. I doubt someone adding bold emphasis to one of my phrases would be of concern to me. I have done the same in the past.

It’s not easy to discuss things on the internet I suppose, there’s the time lag, the tendency to respond to more than one poster at a time...
In any case when I critique the left I’m coming from a place of wanting to work things out and shed light on possible self-destructive tendencies, for example the attitude of rejecting a priori and taunting people on the right. My critique is not a defense of the totality of the right so in responding to me there’s no need to defend the totality of the left.

One of the problems with the whole political correctness issue is that until you’re targeted it may be hard to see the toxicity of the terrain. As long as it’s all abstract, the regressive and authoritarian tendencies of an influential portion of the left could seem mild or harmless. Try being targeted, and I believe that it could or likely will happen to you Jack since you are vocal think for yourself. Then you’ll understand what I’m saying.


Quite frankly, Heaven Swan, my suggestion was just that, a suggestion, and has not a thing to do with right or left or "political correctness." To avoid unnecessary and all but pointless argument was my only intent. Accuracy is most important for one's credibility.

How have you been targeted by the Left? Has someone here targeted you? Please explain.
Surely you don't believe that I saw you as a target, because that would be quite ridiculous.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Jerky » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:02 am

:rofl2 :rofl2 :rofl2 :rofl2 :rofl2 :rofl2 :rofl2 :rofl2

dada » 07 Jul 2018 08:21 wrote:How about the Backspace Boys.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Jerky » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:14 am

HS, could you point me towards a link or something that would back up your claims that there has been a "torrent of violent attacks" against lesbians and feminists by "trans activists"? You keep making that claim, but the only thing you point to is that art show, and the linked website makes some dubious (and latterly refuted) claims regarding both the intent and content of the show in question.

J.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Elvis » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 am

Jerky wrote:HS, could you point me towards a link or something that would back up your claims that there has been a "torrent of violent attacks"


I get the idea, except she didn't say that; she referred to a torrent of threats, not a torrent of attacks.
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