The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Jerky » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:56 am

The exact wording in this particular context: "Radical Feminsts and lesbians have been under siege for the past few years by trans-activists with torrents of death and rape threats which are morphing more and more into violent attacks."

I think that's both overstating the "violence", particularly of the organized variety, perpetrated by trans activists, and understating the hostility and brutalizing rhetoric of many Radical Feminists, based on my observations.

J.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Elvis » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:18 am

^^^ Much better said, without overstating what you allege is already an overstatement. This is not a court of law! :lol:

(Don't mind me, you know I nitpick such rhetorical liberties. In any event I am interested in the debate, carry on.)
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby 82_28 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:44 am

I want to remind everyone (like there should be anything to "remind" anyone of), that through thick and thin this is a place that will remain safe for anyone underrepresented. Keep it within the bounds of "the rules" and remain respectful. I am neither trans nor gay nor non white nor non male nor nor nor. Let us not have flare ups where we know better.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:18 am

Jerky » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:14 am wrote:HS, could you point me towards a link or something that would back up your claims that there has been a "torrent of violent attacks" against lesbians and feminists by "trans activists"? You keep making that claim, but the only thing you point to is that art show, and the linked website makes some dubious (and latterly refuted) claims regarding both the intent and content of the show in question.

J.


Jerky, you're obviously not reading the Gender Identity thread and it's not fair to continue to demand links when they have already been posted. just so you don't have to make the effort of clicking on a link. I will post some of the threats below along with some links that I implore you to click. Please stop ignoring the information provided.

I don't have time now but later I'll post about some grisly cases (I sometimes hesitate because the violence is disturbing, not to mention potentially triggering)..

ALSO I hope we can engage in dialectical communication here rather than debate. In dialectical communication instead of knee-jerk refuting and attempts at point scoring, we both make an effort to listen and understand the other's point of view before responding.

Posted below is just a small sampling of online threats. At this link are more, some too graphic and disgusting to be reposted here:
https://terfisaslur.files.wordpress.com ... .png?w=940

This was already posted by Project Willow on page 2 of the GI thread:

Image


more threats
Image
Image
Image
This is a threat to a prominent RadFem blogger
Image
Image

Here is a link that lists incidences and statistics that you may not be aware of about trans crimes against women (not feminists in particular):
Tip of the Iceberg...
http://appropriately-inappropriate.tumb ... -this-list

More later...
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:39 am

82_28 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:44 am wrote:I want to remind everyone (like there should be anything to "remind" anyone of), that through thick and thin this is a place that will remain safe for anyone underrepresented. Keep it within the bounds of "the rules" and remain respectful. I am neither trans nor gay nor non white nor non male nor nor nor. Let us not have flare ups where we know better.


Thank you 82_28.. :)

I'd like to remind everyone of the strong stand I have taken here at RI against verbal abuse.
Political speech though is another matter.

Sadik Khan, mayor of London, allowed a huge and unflattering representation of President Trump to fly in London skies during Trump's visit because he is seen by many (me included) as their political opponent.

I sincerely hope that attempts to silence our political speech and demands that women "be nice" are not enforced or supported here.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:15 pm

Iamwhomiam » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:36 pm wrote:Seems to me you're forgetting what you don't want to be reminded of:

Image


In an attempt to move the topic within range of the OP:

IAM, you suggested (in a subsequent reply to Neon) that the comic above was directed at my attention.. How so? Why would I not "want to be reminded" of this?
(I trust you haven't somehow confused my commentary as being an advocate for Trump. If so, it's an egregious misreading of my content here).

In any event, affixing the current deficit levels to Trump is dishonest/short-sighted. We've been in deep deficit for some time, and it'd be sky high regardless of the identity of our sitting proxy.

('Partisan' talking points are irrelevant to me anyway, as I see both State parties as caricatures painted to be distinct yet emanating from the same beastly source)

https://www.thebalance.com/deficit-by-p ... de-3306151
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:41 pm

Heaven Swan » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:39 am wrote:Sadik Khan, mayor of London, allowed a huge and unflattering representation of President Trump to fly in London skies during Trump's visit because he is seen by many (me included) as their political opponent.

I sincerely hope that attempts to silence our political speech and demands that women "be nice" are not enforced or supported here.


The latter, absolutely not.

I shall point out that Khan "allowed it" because it's free speech on fair game, on a public figure and politician. It's not that huge, by the way. (The PR success was enormous, evidently.)

I find this talk of "TERFs" and killing them to be absolutely appalling. But I also think it's a vanishing minority doing it. A couple of tweeters (or also several dozen) do not make a movement. If there were not a simultaneous willingness by authorities to accommodate things like redefining the legal category of woman so as potentially to bar women-only (natal, female women-only) spaces such as rape or domestic crisis centers, it would do minimal damage and eventually pass. The breakdown of strict gender normativity is a good thing, and these are the extreme manifestations. There is absolutely no excusing the physical intimidation, threats and actual blows delivered, or that SF library display of the moron with the bloody shirt and baseball bat. It's a disgusting spectacle of frustrated self-centered people punching DOWN or at best sideways. At the same time, the violence rates and we're talking homicide etc. against trans people and just people who don't fit gender expectations for their identifiable sex (biological, assigned, attributed or otherwise) are horrific, and this violence has been happening since... forever! It's good to see the various parts of this problem set.

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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby American Dream » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:54 pm

I am friends with plenty of trans people and I just don't hear anything about wanting to be considered the same as (cis) "men" or "women". Neither do I hear any younger feminists ever speak of excluding them- quite the opposite, trans/non-binary inclusion is expected. Equally so, every feminist-informed rape/abuse survivor organization I know of takes trans inclusion as a given.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:16 pm

JackRiddler » 09 Jul 2018 06:09 wrote:The difference being, this is every day and everywhere in almost every context in the U.S. and around the world, and a serious problem, but it is not a per-se "left" problem. It is a men problem. Ideologically, at least, the left opposes it. The right embraces it. It is programmatic for most tendencies on the right that feminists are bad, that there is no rape culture, that women's bodies should be controlled, that childbirth should be forced on them, that day care centers make serial killers, that women are naturally weepy and men get the job done, etc. Pretty much the opposite positions are programmatic, on the left, regardless of the kind of bad individual behavior that can be found everywhere else. To bring up some story of individual behaviors (uncited, unlinked, and not real as long as it's the unreliable Rory's trap talking, and no other source), it is distraction and derailing of the discussion, just like WR's hit-and-run comment: playing to stereotypes and (right-wing) prejudices about groups of people rather than actual progammatic differences. That's basically what Greer is serving up, and it may as well be out of Breitbart for his understanding of social movements or actual left groups. There is nothing whatsoever new in this kind of "centrist" move, it is a lazy way to get easy cheers from lazy thinkers.

What isn't being addressed here are the ideas of health care as human right, economic and social justice, ending mass incarceration, ending prohibition, ending empire, converting to renewable energies, cutting the military and spending on human needs, increasingly also MMT and a jobs for all program. These are left - generally speaking, progressive and socialist - ideas (Ending empire can also be found on the right). They are not Democratic party platforms, since, of course, at the top and official levels, except for a small minority, the Democratic Party is not leftist but basically the other right wing, neoliberal, imperialist capitalist party. Hillary Clinton is not remotely "the left" and the TV pundits playing "liberals" are just players, serving up right-wing politics as if it is oppositional.

.


Hey JR.

Once upon a time the ideas of marketing, hidden warfare, psychological operations and the like were part and parcel of this board's fare and effectively what you are describing (esp in the bolded bits) is Greer being sucked into that vortex. He's parroting the memes and ideas of a "group" that formed specifically to undermine his message of the last 20 years.

That's why all that stuff you mentioned (2nd bolded bit) that actually matters is almost gone from mainstream discussion. As is action on Global Warming or any form of environmental action.

Its not wholly accurate to say that Trump is the inevitable result of:

Belligerent Savant » 07 Jul 2018 04:17 wrote:.
Can't presume to speak for the author, but I believe the basic gist is that Trump in office was an inevitable outcome of the inequities in place within the current system, and also -- at least in part -- the result of a collective "F#ck U" vote against the status quo by a segment of the disenfranchised.


He's the result of at least a decade but probably more like two decades of specific social engineering by a small group of rich, powerful cunts who (initially anyway) made money from fossil fuels and wanted to protect their interests. I'm sure things have grown, changed and evolved but essentially that is what happens. Same people promote the shitty behaviour of these alleged "Ctrl-Left" types as a thing (whether it is or not) to specifically undermine and remove from discourse the ideas you mention that are the domain of the left.

All that other stuff is a much more recent gloss over the top of it. Hence the use of language like "Social Justice Warrior", "Virtue Signalling" "PC-Authoritarianism" etc etc as defining that particular pov.

Its bullshit and shouldn't be brought into even tho over the last few years i've seen people on this board who i thought would know better dive head first into it.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Grizzly » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:59 pm

ts bullshit and shouldn't be brought into even tho over the last few years i've seen people on this board who i thought would know better dive head first into it.


whaaaa!?? ...lol
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby American Dream » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:17 am

Why Are Some Feminists In The UK Freaking Out About Trans Rights?

The protesters who hijacked and led the London Pride parade over the weekend represent a worrying trend of anti-trans feminism in the UK.

Over the weekend, Pride in London released two public statements regarding the incident. The first cited “hot weather” and “safety” as reasons why organizers decided to let the anti-trans protesters lead the parade. Their most recent statement condemned the hate group’s actions as “shocking and disgusting,” but they continued to defend their decision not to remove the unregistered group from the parade. Pride in London’s cochairs have not responded to a request for comment on this story.

This latest stunt at London Pride comes as anti-trans bigotry in the UK has reached a fever pitch. Both left-wing and tabloid media have flooded the country with constant attacks on transgender youth. Earlier this year, BuzzFeed News reported that BBC staffers were sending each other anti-trans messages in private group chats. Other groups of anti-trans feminists have begun a project, called #ManFriday, which involves pretending to be trans in order to ridicule trans rights — seen in a recent incident in which they invaded a men’s pool and were escorted out by police. And yet another hate group, Transgender Trend, has been raising funds to distribute anti-trans propaganda to schools as a neutral-sounding “resource pack,” in a similar style to crisis pregnancy centers duping women seeking abortions. Meanwhile, Britain’s left-leaning Labour party has become embroiled in controversy surrounding their decision to allow trans women on all-women short lists, which are intended to increase the number of women MPs in the United Kingdom.

Anti-trans feminists have been whipped up into a fury by proposed changes to trans rights legislation in Britain.
So why is the UK losing its mind over trans people? Anti-trans feminists, accusing trans women of invading women’s spaces, and anti-trans lesbians, angered at trans women being welcomed into the lesbian community, have been whipped up into a fury by proposed changes to trans rights legislation in Britain.

Last Tuesday, alongside releasing the results of a massive National LGBT Survey, the government opened consultations to reform the Gender Recognition Act of 2004 — the piece of legislation regulating how trans people can legally change our genders. The current legislation requires trans people to jump through numerous hoops to “prove” that we’re “trans enough.” These hoops include getting a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, living two years in our “acquired gender." The legislation also allows for a “spousal veto,” which means that disgruntled or abusive spouses can hold up the process. The law also doesn’t allow for the recognition of nonbinary identities. And finally, all of this evidence must be submitted to a secretive panel of strangers we’re never allowed to meet. The GRA as it currently stands lags behind more progressive legislation in countries like Argentina and Ireland.

Trans-exclusionary radical feminists, known as TERFs (though they consider this term a slur), believe that reforming the GRA would allow trans women, whom they characterize as men in disguise, access to women’s bathrooms, women’s refuges (shelters), and other women’s spaces — beliefs explained in the literature handed out by anti-trans protesters at Pride on Saturday.

But these rights are already protected under the Equality Act 2010, and the reform of the GRA would have no positive or negative effect on any other piece of existing legislation. Trans people in the UK already regularly use the bathrooms associated with our genders, and trans women already access women’s refuges and many women’s services without incident. What should have been a fairly innocuous update to an overly laborious legal gender-change process has instead, for some feminists, become the frontline for debate over what makes a woman, who gets to define that, and the evolving landscape of queer language and identity.

Let’s not get it twisted: This isn’t a battle between all cis feminists and trans women. It’s a battle between a small but vocal and politically connected group of anti-trans bigots and everyone else. A coalition of Welsh women’s organizations this week released a statement of solidarity and support for trans rights — making this Welsh-Canadian scream “Cymru Am Byth!” a little too loud in the office. Meanwhile, organizers of London’s Butch, Please lesbian dance party released a statement on Facebook and Instagram condemning the anti-trans protesters at Pride in London titled “Not in My Name.” Europe’s largest LGBT campaigning organization, Stonewall, has criticized Pride in London’s actions and statements, with CEO Ruth Hunt writing, “Pride in London had a duty to act and protect trans people ... They didn’t. They had a duty to condemn the hatred directed at trans people. They didn’t.” Even the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, released a strong statement condemning transphobia immediately following the event.

This small group of hateful bigots here in England finds their roots in early 1970s America. Radical lesbian activists at that time merged with the second-wave feminist movement, starting iconic organizations and events that centered the voices of lesbian feminists. But within these groups, divisions quickly broke out over a number of issues, none more controversial than the existence of lesbian trans women and their place in the women’s movement.


More at: https://www.buzzfeed.com/morganmpage/wh ... .ij6JPewYG
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:40 am

I’ve tried to explain, I’ve posted evidence of the threats and harm to women. I do appreciate the posters who have shown empathy, support or even just acknowledged that these manifestations of misogyny are wrong.

Right now my grief is taking me in other directions though and I need to take a break. I’m leaving you with this video by Carol Knuth about what it’s like to grow up as a vulnerable girl in America, and how something as simple and basic as truly caring for others can solve all the problems we see around us.

"Bow to your oppressor and you will be destroyed. Dare to fight and you will liberate the world."
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:28 pm

Thanks Joe, good to see you back.

Why don't we move the other issue here to the transgender policy thread where it's been running the whole time? I engaged too, sorry. It would be nice if AD and then HS moved their last posts there.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:41 pm

Joe Hillshoist » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:16 pm wrote:
Its not wholly accurate to say that Trump is the inevitable result of:

Belligerent Savant » 07 Jul 2018 04:17 wrote:.
Can't presume to speak for the author, but I believe the basic gist is that Trump in office was an inevitable outcome of the inequities in place within the current system, and also -- at least in part -- the result of a collective "F#ck U" vote against the status quo by a segment of the disenfranchised.


He's the result of at least a decade but probably more like two decades of specific social engineering by a small group of rich, powerful cunts who (initially anyway) made money from fossil fuels and wanted to protect their interests. I'm sure things have grown, changed and evolved but essentially that is what happens. Same people promote the shitty behaviour of these alleged "Ctrl-Left" types as a thing (whether it is or not) to specifically undermine and remove from discourse the ideas you mention that are the domain of the left.

All that other stuff is a much more recent gloss over the top of it. Hence the use of language like "Social Justice Warrior", "Virtue Signalling" "PC-Authoritarianism" etc etc as defining that particular pov.

Its bullshit and shouldn't be brought into even tho over the last few years i've seen people on this board who i thought would know better dive head first into it.


All salient points; agreed in spirit.
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Re: The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:45 pm

Damn, I made this point as well as I could five years ago, very relevant here regarding the aversion to words (labels) as if they are the problem. In this case, the labels were environmentalist and feminist, but one could say the same about left and right:

JackRiddler » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:46 pm wrote:Cross-posting my last bit from the HATE thread because LOVE is better:

Aversion to labels on principle is a big part of the mind-fuckery.

The system conditions us to fear having political labels attached to us. This is part of the depoliticization process. It's fine to be a Christian, Muslim, or Jew (most people in "Western" or modern societies agree) and increasingly even an to be an atheist. but we're trained not to want to be left or right, or even to understand properly what these words mean, and what they have meant historically.

Many labels are inherently nonsensical. Many have been distorted and perverted and misused and tainted beyond redemption. Many are taken over by bad people and bad causes, so that now it sounds like an ugly thing to be a republican or a democrat or a communist. Many were meant as attacks in the first place, like conspiracy theorist.

And yet other labels are so ubiquitous and so freely applied that no one even notices they make the most trouble. Number one among these in the United States is the label of American. A false unifier. Yet no one has a problem with that label. They don't even think of it as a label. It's a natural state, like water to the fish.

The Kaiser's famous speech on the declaration of war in 1914: "Today I see no Social Democrats, no liberals, no conservatives. I see only Germans!"

Let's remember that a label is just a word. A noun. The question is, does the label fit the object? Is it fair? What are its connotations?

I am a feminist.

I am an environmentalist.

These are easily defined concepts.

These are unambiguously good things to be.


Anyone who reacts poorly to either label is or has been fucked in the head from an early age.

To me a feminist believes in equal rights and privileges for women and men; freedom from proscribed gender roles; and fair treatment for all: From each according to her ability, to each according to her need. The "second wave" feminism of the 1970s would serve any nation far better as a hegemonic ideology than our present nightmare of religions and secular creeds.

A few female feminists would deny me the label, but I have no problem with them. They are on their own path and they do little harm to anyone else (contrary to how the David Mamets and Stephen Morgans might see it).

An environmentalist understands that the human species, its populations, its cultures, economies, polities and civilizations are entirely subordinate parts and functions of a biosphere that carries these, and is complexly interdependent with these. The first principle of economics must become that it is inescapably a subset of ecology -- as well as a product of historical development, and not of abstract first principles like the "market." Until then, it is only an ideology of the powerful and a pseudo-science.

An environmentalist understands the species as a whole -- thanks mostly but not entirely to a minority of over-consumers, generally the ones whom the pseudo-economics serves actually -- is trashing the carrying capacity for the species. And making the place much uglier in the process. And causing one of the great extinction events in the earth's history, so far more rapid than any other in the fossil record. And causing great suffering to all the other life as well as our own. This necessitates more change than we are willing to imagine. Or the die-off will come to us. Perhaps this is already inevitable. I don't think so, but to think so does not necessarily make you in favor of it.

.
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