Modern Monetary Theory

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:48 pm

"On this we differ. It's possible that the lightning rod could only have been invented, or would only have been produced, if it were grounded in the dead souls. (Are you sure, have you thought through all the implications of that?) However, the lightning rod once produced works (as well as possible, better than other models). Or it doesn't."

Yes, the choice of words is deliberate, selected through the judgement of adequation. Says everything it needs to say, and much more. Shadowy implications, and yet you knew what I meant.

But right now I'm using the lightning rod for cooking goose. Franklin's lightning rod both works and works best, this we've already established it does. So working backwards from the metaphor, we already have the best monetary theory, the one that works and works best. But it does need to be hooked up by grounding in the language of the dead. Or you might get a terrible shock.

The point is we can discuss the money system to death, but it won't be the systems death, but ours. It isn't the "people's monetary theory" for fighting in the academic arena. "reformist," that's funny. Like people's electricity, people's state, so therefore state's electricity. Big posters, smiling leaders.

The people's monetary theory isn't what fights in economy debate, but the people's science, which is all science, since the leisure to experiment was bought and paid for by the dead. The people's language. The monetary theory comes with it, folded in. It is a theory of life, the money can't be separated off without ground lift.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:01 pm

dada » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:31 am wrote:"It does. It absolutely does start with those drives. Warren Mosler, the "godfather of MMT," routinely outlines "the money story" and the coercive nature of its beginnings. David Graeber also described "the money story," independently and in almost exactly the same terms. This doesn't mean that Mosler likes coercion—he doesn't, and has ideas to take coercion out of money.

Both Mosler and Graeber realize that public money can be used for good or for evil. Britain, France, Belgium and others have used it brutally to extract wealth in Africa—sickening. Pericles used it to build the Parthenon—still the most beautiful building in the world.

Here is just one instance (you can find many) of Mosler addressing exactly that which you offhandedly say MMT ignores"

Last night you said the first means of exploitation is not slavery and sweatshops, though, but "fear of getting fired by the boss." I'm thinking that didn't just come from nowhere, but from your mmt studies. Throwing media at me doesn't help your argument, it shows that what mmt teaches doesn't give you the tools to address the actual issue of exploitation in a meaningful way in the big money debate.

Modern, then, as you are saying modern means for mmt, sounds like just basically mass production. And so mmt is just monetary theory for mass production.

"Ending involuntary unemployment" is a bad idea because it would certainly be used politically, as a means to end all unemployment, by law. And I think the same thing applies here as with exploitation. If you can't argue the point but instead must throw media at me and shut down the discussion with a "look into it, or not," it doesn't say much for the integrity of the theory you are pushing here.


Incessantly chattering about the topic and grossly mischaracterizing it without reading, viewing or engaging any of the pertinent materials is a waste of our time—yours included, unless your intention is to troll.

Since you're not interested in actually learning about what you're criticizing—you don't know what you're talking about—let me suggest that you find other threads to post in.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:17 pm

"raising an army and going after the guy on the throne" is not unique to the greeks and their democracy-creatinv magic power tokens, but is a basic way kingdoms have risen and fallen since time immemorial.

I didn't say it wasn't unique to the Greeks. Why would I?

I "can say people didn't gather in [Greek retail] marketplaces to sell their goods" because there is zero evidence of retail commerce in the Greek agoras prior to the adoption of coinage, and evidence against it.

This is for whoever might be genuinely interested in learning the history, which regularly improves with new discoveries:

https://www.press.umich.edu/17760/inven ... ent_greece

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:18 pm

Elvis » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:46 am wrote:
Agent Orange Cooper wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:


Agent Orange Cooper, may I ask which MMT books or journal papers you've read? Thanks.


So, none?
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:21 pm

Figure the words have to be deliberate at this point. Economy of words dictates, each word is the only one it could've been.

The language of the dead, the people's language, the people's science, the science of life. That is called grounding, I guess. Dead language, the language of mass culture, will not work because it doesn't bond with the ground, but bonds with social media.

Like a baby duck imprinting mother on a beachball. All the dead languages of mass culture taken together couldn't generate enough power to cook a beachball.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:25 pm

Sorry, Elvis. Hope you can forgive me my tresspasses and transgressions. Water under the bridge and all that. Conversation has gone kind of light years ahead though, so if you don't mind I'll stick around this thread until my thought-exchange with Jack, and whoever else would like to join in, is done. Like the trading day, at the closing bell.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:49 pm

Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:18 pm wrote:
Elvis » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:46 am wrote:
Agent Orange Cooper wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:


Agent Orange Cooper, may I ask which MMT books or journal papers you've read? Thanks.


So, none?


I'm guessing we're even in terms of how many books you've read on Bitcoin.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:53 pm

One thing needs to be made clear again: MMT is not something you do, it's something you know.

When MMT economists propose we do some particular action—e.g. the job guarantee, changing the role of the Fed, revising Social Security accounting, etc—they advocate because those prescriptions follow simply and rationally from the description MMT provides.

Those are political choices. If we ignore reality and accept myths in its place, we make bad choices. We consent to "have fun staying poor."
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:31 pm

I would bring the human remains under Franklin's house into it at this point in the dscussion. I say that the lightning rod must be grounded in the dead souls within the machinery of mass production.

The dead souls are the historically faceless ones, we're going with slaves and sweatshop workers. On the farms, in the mills.

The dead souls bring shadowy implications though, when untethered from the machinery of mass production and set free. And who can blame them for being in such a dark mood. I know I would be.

So Jack untethers the dead souls, and sees the shadowy implications. But in spite of the shadowy implications, he still knew what I meant.

Of course what is shadowy and implied in dead souls is not all dark, dead souls are actually rich with implications of all kinds, and if befriended, have a way of working themselves seamlessly into a sentence just when you need them.

So dead souls is direct, the implications are shadowy. With the remains under Franklin's house, we have a simple explanation. They were for scientific study. But the presentation of the matter by belsav comes with the shadowy implication, directly. So the scientific study actually has nowhere to go. It can't be direct, the shadowy implication already took over that spot.

So scientific study becomes the shadowy implication. Autopsies, horror movie hellfire sets. Ben Franklinstein's monster.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:43 pm

Terrific piece by Eric Levitz on the existing system of planned—forced—mass unemployment, subsistence wages for the employed, and debt traps for both. MMT is not mentioned specifically but MMT research provides the subtext. Many links at original; italics are original, bold is mine.

By advocating a job guarantee—or think of it as a public option for employment—MMT economists and others explicitly seek to end this form of slavery:



June 4, 2021
Letting the Economy Create Jobs for Everyone Is (Sadly) Radical
By Eric Levitz

Everyone in American politics believes that jobs should be plentiful and wages should be high — they just disagree about how to achieve those outcomes.

Or so our nation’s political rhetoric might lead one to believe.

When Republicans lambaste Joe Biden’s proposed corporate-tax hike, they do not warn of smaller dividends for shareholders but rather fewer jobs and lower wages for working people. And when Democrats advocate for their president’s climate plan, they don’t promise higher returns for green investors but good-paying jobs for blue-collar laborers. In fact, it can be hard to find an argument for or against any economic policy — whether delivered on the campaign trail or in Congress, by a liberal or a conservative — that doesn’t at least tacitly stipulate that jobs should be abundant and public policy has a role to play in producing such abundance (if only by getting “big government” out of the job creators’ way).

And yet, if the pursuit of maximum employment is an uncontroversial aim in the context of American oratory, it is a radical one in the context of U.S. policy. For the bulk of the past four decades, our government hasn’t merely declined to achieve full employment through public hiring; it has actively sought to keep millions of Americans perpetually unemployed.

This bipartisan consensus against full employment was rarely articulated to the public in forthright terms. During the crisis that consolidated the paradigm, policy-makers were sometimes blunt; in 1979, Fed chair Paul Volcker told Congress that in order for inflation to be brought down to a tolerable level, “the standard of living of the average American has to decline.” But as inflation became more of a historical memory than a present danger, the government’s prioritization of price stability over employment became increasingly camouflaged behind the dry technocratic verbiage of central-bank press conferences. Once decoded, the gist of this new consensus was simple enough: If unemployment falls beneath its “natural” threshold, then employers will be forced into a bidding war for scarce workers, who will then secure wages in excess of their productivity, which will force businesses to raise prices, which will lead workers to demand yet-higher wages, which will force businesses to raise prices further still, thereby setting off an inflationary spiral that will be difficult to stop. Thus, to save the economy from such destabilization, the government has to reduce economic demand — by raising interest rates, or cutting federal spending, or both — before unemployment gets too low, even if inflation is not yet apparent.

This official narrative obscured the class interests implicated by the government’s prioritization of low inflation over plentiful jobs. America’s wealthy have a greater material interest in price stability than they do in full employment; moderate inflation erodes the value of their bonds and cash holdings, while moderate unemployment has little adverse impact on their finances — and may even increase the value of their stocks by suppressing labor’s bargaining power. The bulk of U.S. workers, on the other hand, have a much greater interest in abundant jobs than ultralow prices. In a full-employment economy — where firms must compete for scarce labor — employers will be more likely to offer opportunities to “low skill” workers, on-the-job training to inexperienced ones, accommodations to the partially disabled, and wage increases to all. Nevertheless, policy-makers spent the bulk of the past 40 years preventing that economy from coming into being. In fact, as recently as 2015, the Fed treated preempting the mere risk of modest inflation as a higher priority than the achievement of an unemployment rate below 5 percent.

Then the old consensus broke down. Years of progressive lobbying — and sluggish growth — finally persuaded Jerome Powell’s Fed to hold off on raising interest rates until there was actual evidence of inflation. Donald Trump blunted Republican opposition to this shift by cheerleading for low interest rates (a monetary-policy preference that derived from his background in real estate). Then COVID hit, and U.S. fiscal policy underwent a mini-revolution.

By the time Joe Biden took office, Congress had already supplied the economy with roughly $3 trillion in fiscal support. That unprecedented stimulus had left U.S. households $12 trillion richer than they had been before the pandemic. Which is to say: The median American family was in better financial shape in January 2021 than it had been at the peak of the Trump “boom.” The economy was already recovering, and vaccines were about to be distributed. And yet Democrats passed another $1.9 trillion stimulus anyway — in the name of accelerating the return of full employment.

Last week in Cleveland, the president made the case for this macroeconomic policy in unusually stark terms:

My sole measure of economic success is how working families are doing, whether they have jobs that deliver dignity. That means we have to focus on wages like we used to. When it comes to the economy, rebuilding rising wages aren’t a bug. They’re a feature. We want to get something that economists call full employment. Instead of workers competing with each other for jobs that are scarce, we want employers to compete with each other to attract work. We want the companies to compete to attract workers. That kind of competition in the market doesn’t just give workers more ability to earn a higher wage. It gives them the power to demand to be treated with dignity and respect in the workplace.


Biden’s speech was remarkable for its acknowledgment of full employment’s class implications: When jobs are plentiful, workers get leverage over bosses — which is a good thing, since workers cannot reliably secure “dignity and respect in the workplace” unless they have some material power over their employers.

This was especially notable in light of the speech’s context. In recent weeks, lamentations of a “labor shortage” have filled the business press, while multiple Obama-administration economists have sounded alarms over inflation. The president’s remarks serve as a tacit rebuke to both of those criticisms. Biden suggests that a scarcity of labor isn’t a blight to be avoided, but a goal to be pursued (after all, a synonym for “labor shortage” is “a dearth of involuntarily unemployed people”). And he also signaled an allegiance to full employment and wage growth over the minimization of inflationary risk.

America remains a long way away from full employment, of course. But Democrats’ extension of $300 weekly federal unemployment benefits through September — combined with the savings that past relief checks have helped U.S. households accumulate — has given the nation a preview of how an economy that provides “jobs for all who want them” would operate.

And not everyone likes it.

As the New York Times reports:

Even workers with less formal education, who have experienced the worst job losses and still face high unemployment rates, have seen pay accelerate this year as economies reopen and employers struggle to hire … Reports of labor shortages in service jobs that are newly reopening abound, and surveys show businesses and consumers becoming more confident that employee earnings will increase. Job openings have been surging, and the rate at which workers are quitting suggests that they have some room to be choosy.

Many employers, particularly in hospitality, have blamed generous unemployment benefits — now set at an extra $300 per week — for encouraging workers to stay home and making it harder for them to hire. More than 20 states, all led by Republican governors, have moved to cut off pandemic unemployment programs before their scheduled September end date.

Republicans have warned that as employers lift pay to attract scarce workers, they may be forced out of business or pass along added labor costs in the form of higher prices.


Note: The fundamental complaint from both Republicans and employers here is not that unemployment benefits are too generous, but that labor is too scarce. Federal unemployment benefits might be causing that scarcity today. But abundant jobs would cause such scarcity by definition. The actual policy position that Republicans and business owners are endorsing, however tacitly, is that employment opportunities must be restricted so that cheap labor is always easy to find.

Which sounds a bit scandalous. In a democratic society, in which a large majority of the public works for a living, politicians generally don’t declare themselves hostile to the goal of plentiful employment. But a numerically significant, and disproportionately powerful, segment of Americans are hostile to that objective, even if they don’t know it yet.

America hasn’t seen anything approaching full employment in two decades. In the wake of the 2008 crisis — and the low-wage recovery that followed — multibillion-dollar companies like Uber were built atop the presumption that there would always be a large population of workers desperate for irregular, ill-paid employment. Countless small businesses — whose profit margins depend on low wage rates — came into being. And millions of upper-middle-class consumers became accustomed to various services whose affordability was contingent on the hyperexploitability of those who provided them. Last year, one-quarter of American workers earned less than two-thirds of the nation’s median wage. In no other developed country was the share of “low wage” workers so high.

Transitioning from an economy in which workers compete for employment — to one in which employers compete for workers — is a more radical change than Biden cares to admit. If workers win high wages and “dignity in the workplace,” many low-road, low-productivity employers will go out of business, and some middle-class consumers will have to go out less. Which isn’t to say that workers’ gains will be zero sum. A high-wage economy will also be one replete with demand for businesses that don’t depend on cheap labor to make ends meet. And it will also encourage more investment in automation and thus advances in productivity.

But to deliver us to that economy, Biden and the Fed will need to weather escalating pushback from those who were well served by the old, anti-full-employment consensus. To bring exploitation down to a tolerable level, the standard of living of the average rentier will have to decline.



To briefly address the politics: Biden's speech is indeed remarkable. Would he say such things if he didn't mean it? I read that some economists had a 'sit-down" with Biden to explain the macroeconomic mysteries. Biden's adviser Jason Furman recently had some amicable Twitter exchanges with MMT'er Stephanie Kelton (he replied to her critique of some public statement he made), and he tends to take the MMT perspective to heart but he also acknowledges that for politcal reasons he has to play the "pay for"/"inflation" game. He knows that the proposed corporate tax increase isn't needed to "pay for it," but by far it's Americans' favorite tax.

Also, this:
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:45 pm

"have fun staying poor."

As I said, I choose poverty for the peace of my soul. So really what you are saying is you don't know how to have fun without money.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:56 pm

dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:45 pm wrote:So really what you are saying is you don't know how to have fun without money.

I'm saying it's not fun for people to go hungry, sick and homeless.

But I think you knew that. Why did you make it about you and me?

This thread is about aggregates. :bigsmile
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:15 pm

Not sure what you're getting at. I'm saying I choose poverty. I choose to be allied with the hungry, sick and homeless, even though I'm not hungry, sick or homeless. Not allied with mass culture, where suffering is measured in asking whether or not it is "fun."
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby Elvis » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:17 pm

Agent Orange Cooper » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:26 pm wrote:
Elvis » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:04 am wrote:I notice that to avert incoming regulations, Bitcoin exchange peeps are now proclaiming that "Bitcoin is NOT a currency!!" :lol:

Dudes, we told you!


Who is proclaiming that? Tell that to the people of El Salvador, who are about to make it legal tender. You continue to argue against strawmen when it comes to Bitcoin.


At the 19:22 mark Saylor argues that bitcoin is an asset, not a currency; casting it such light to deter regulation.

Michael Saylor: Bitcoin has no existential threats

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKp3Hx4SFV0

While Bitcoin has risen in mainstream popularity, with institutional adoption rising at an unprecedented pace, skeptics of cryptocurrencies cite the potential of government intervention to outlaw its use as a currency as a reason not to invest.

Michael Saylor, CEO of MicroStrategy, said that even if Bitcoin's use as a form of payment is regulated or even outlawed, the world's largest cryptocurrency would still not face any threats to its primary use case, which is a store of value, and so no existential threat should be considered.

"I think that Bitcoin is going to be the emerging strong money store of value asset in the 21st century," Saylor told Michelle Makori, editor-in-chief of Kitco News. "There are 8 billion people that need a strong money or a monetary asset. If they're going to live a decent life, that asset needs to be digital."

0:00 - Bitcoin vs. Ethereum
4:20 - Bitcoin Standard
6:12 - Charlie Munger vs. Bitcoin
14:09 - Is Bitcoin a threat to the government?
19:22 - Bitcoin is an asset, not a currency


I've put some time into hearing these guys out, mainly I think they start with some bad assumptions. I've read some of the foundational stuff by "Satoshi Nakamoto"; he contradicts himself, you could say he lacks a coherent theory of money and especially of inflation. The attempted experiment in El Salvadore will be interesting (I like Jack's take on that, in the bitcoin thread I think).
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory

Postby dada » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:49 pm

Also, the hungry sick and homeless tell me to remind you about the slaves and the sweatshop workers that are working around the clock to keep mass production economy running smoothly. They're also allies in poverty, and deserve at least a brief mention.

"It isn't fun to be hungry, sick or homeless." It just doesn't sound like language that will get anyone inspired. More geared to social media, not for generating electricity.

Just to bring it into the conversation that was happening above using Ben Franklin's marvelous metaphorical inventions.
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