French Uprising of December 2018

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:54 pm

.

And the answer for why the Left is bad is once again that some guy I never heard of pulled off some contemptible hoax and anyone who thinks capitalism and racism and sexism suck, or even exist, has to answer for him! Thanks, Sean!

Also, the French Uprising is finally going to liberate the world not only from French bankster regimes but the real oppressors, imaginary American leftists. That's the real subject of this thread! Please don't post anything about France while I'm gone. Thank you.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:06 pm

It is engaged simultaneously in the biggest projects to convert to solar energy, and also opening enough new coal mines to provide its outsize share in overdetermining the planetary catastrophe. Both of these industries are run by the capitalist rules.


Probably the one thing we all agree on, is that our struggle is with crony capitalism, which communism seems to be only a variation on. Both seem to be top down authoritarian control and distribution systems. That said, I work in the trades and do like having some input in what i get paid and whats left after the bills are paid. Same with yellow vests and all others cursed with new prosperity metrics. When peoples fixed costs exceed their income for a prolonged time, social pressures will rise.

Get out of your bubbles, most people can see new tax harvesting operations for what they are. So yes Harvey, you may say that many do not 'believe' in CC for anti-tax or selfish reasons, but at the same time those folk realize on some level that the forces that created the problem are not the people qualified to fix the problem. What govts. say and what they do are two different things. Will we have a tax to save the insects?

No, because that would only require some new regulations, would involve the use of too many big words, and would threaten a major 'profit' center.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:10 pm

Sounder » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:06 pm wrote:That said, I work in the trades and do like having some input in what i get paid and whats left after the bills are paid. Same with yellow vests and all others cursed with new prosperity metrics.


And that you have any say and some measure of democracy too is something that most capitalists as a powerful front fought against violently for a hundred years before it was won away from them by organized workers with socialist ideas.

So yes Harvey, you may say that many do not 'believe' in CC for anti-tax or selfish reasons, but at the same time those folk realize on some level that the forces that created the problem are not the people qualified to fix the problem. What govts. say and what they do are two different things.


In France-EU and the US, corporate interests and rich people have bought the politicians and captured the agencies. In the US, a bunch of billionaires sit in the cabinet. They have their hands up the sock-puppet govts' ass, and it "says" and "does" whatever they like. That includes letting the oil companies push a coup in VZ and burn the planet for the profit of private individuals, a.k.a. for capitalism in its pure (as opposed to communist) form. And kill the insects too. The solution is not in taxes, we agree. A real solution would be in the immediate expropriation of the billionaires and the criminal entities in hydrocarbons and banking and the direction of their resources toward a renewable energy conversion. Since that's "impossible," a Green New Deal with a bit of MMT is as good as it gets.

Peace out.

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:48 pm

And that you have any say and some measure of democracy too is something that most capitalists as a powerful front fought against violently for a hundred years before it was won away from them by organized workers with socialist ideas.


Walter Reuther is one of my few heroes. He lived up the street from my in-laws, so I read a dreadfully written yet wonderful biography by his daughter. What a guy, -talk about brass balls. Then came Hoffa.

A real solution would be in the immediate expropriation of the billionaires and the criminal entities in hydrocarbons and banking and the direction of their resources toward a renewable energy conversion. Since that's "impossible," a Green New Deal with a bit of MMT is as good as it gets.


Your 'real solution' IMO reflects dominant narrative fixation with objects. You would place 'blame' and expropriate the billionaires and bankers ill gotten gains. Another option is to collectively recognize that our split-model thrives on acquisitiveness, -getting things, that replaces authentic experiences and relationships with poor substitutes. If the community at large were not driven by acquisitiveness, we would produce a much smaller strain on the environment. At that point it will be plain to all that the bankers have overstepped their proper role and have no proper claim to be the issuers of currency. Remove that privilege and these fortunes will melt away.

Your 'good as it gets' is clearly not good enough, so I will trudge on.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby DrEvil » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:14 pm

Sounder » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:48 pm wrote:
And that you have any say and some measure of democracy too is something that most capitalists as a powerful front fought against violently for a hundred years before it was won away from them by organized workers with socialist ideas.


Walter Reuther is one of my few heroes. He lived up the street from my in-laws, so I read a dreadfully written yet wonderful biography by his daughter. What a guy, -talk about brass balls. Then came Hoffa.

A real solution would be in the immediate expropriation of the billionaires and the criminal entities in hydrocarbons and banking and the direction of their resources toward a renewable energy conversion. Since that's "impossible," a Green New Deal with a bit of MMT is as good as it gets.


Your 'real solution' IMO reflects dominant narrative fixation with objects. You would place 'blame' and expropriate the billionaires and bankers ill gotten gains. Another option is to collectively recognize that our split-model thrives on acquisitiveness, -getting things, that replaces authentic experiences and relationships with poor substitutes. If the community at large were not driven by acquisitiveness, we would produce a much smaller strain on the environment. At that point it will be plain to all that the bankers have overstepped their proper role and have no proper claim to be the issuers of currency. Remove that privilege and these fortunes will melt away.

Your 'good as it gets' is clearly not good enough, so I will trudge on.


Everybody wants "things". Food on the table, a roof over their head, school for their children and healthcare for grandma. All of those needs are met with "objects", not happy thoughts, and as Jack already pointed out, a small group of very rich people dominate the political narrative and perpetuate the status quo because it's good for them, so I agree completely that a good way to start would be to take away their power. Breaking the current power structures is, as I see it, a prerequisite for improving people's lives and fighting climate change.

You seem to be arguing that if we could just change human nature on a global scale everything will get better and we will cast off the yoke of fiat currency. I'm reminded of the Natural Law Party of Norway. They wanted to replace today's political structures with transcendental meditation, which would somehow fix everything. Spoiler alert: it didn't (unless you count giving people a good laugh).
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:25 pm

"Magical Voluntarism". (See David Smail)
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:47 am

Everybody wants "things". Food on the table, a roof over their head, school for their children and healthcare for grandma. All of those needs are met with "objects", not happy thoughts,


Yes, we have genuine needs and these are in the form of objects. However if we had less inclination to turn 'wants' into 'needs', there would more 'objects' available to fulfill real needs.

and as Jack already pointed out, a small group of very rich people dominate the political narrative and perpetuate the status quo because it's good for them, so I agree completely that a good way to start would be to take away their power. Breaking the current power structures is, as I see it, a prerequisite for improving people's lives and fighting climate change.


Do you imagine that you will beat these people by playing their acquisitiveness game? They are better at that than you and I are, so we may do well to make up a different game.


You seem to be arguing that if we could just change human nature on a global scale everything will get better and we will cast off the yoke of fiat currency.


No, I am arguing that what we take to be human nature is merely human habit conditioned over many centuries to consider that grasping and killing the other is the only route to 'success' and happiness. Your argument appeals to many because of course human nature will not be changed, but we may come to recognize that we do not yet even know what human nature is.

I'm reminded of the Natural Law Party of Norway. They wanted to replace today's political structures with transcendental meditation, which would somehow fix everything. Spoiler alert: it didn't (unless you count giving people a good laugh).


Negative connotations are always good as a defensive measure, it helps for when the mind needs to shut down.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby DrEvil » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:06 pm

^^Sure, but your way still comes up against the problem of the current power structures. I don't imagine they would be very inclined to let human nature evolve/change into something that deprives them of power. To them the status quo is a good thing, and anything that challenges that will be groin-stomped for multiple handfuls of dice worth of damage.

Change won't come until we change the power dynamic, and a good way to get the ball rolling would be to start chipping away at their power and expose the emperor's clothes for what they are.

Some random thoughts on how to do that:
break up the big banks and regulate the leftovers to the hilt, encourage co-ops and community owned banks instead (no one has a problem with municipal utilities, so why treat banks any differently?), tax the everloving crap out of the rich, carbon pricing, get money out of politics (overturn Citizens United if possible), ban political ads on TV (soundbytes are a shitty way of doing politics) and put a cap on campaign spending (public funding would be best), strict quarantine laws for politicians leaving office (something like one election cycle until they can start lobbying) and full disclosure on all lobbying, strengthen unions, free healthcare and higher education and a ban on for-profit private schools, a living wage, etc.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Jerky » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:32 am

Laudable goals, considered entirely impossible by most... especially those who would most benefit.

God only knows what it will take to change a critical mass of hearts and minds... (and I say this as an atheist).

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby DrEvil » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:42 pm

^^That's what is so infuriating. They're not impossible. Almost all of those are in effect to some degree or other all over the Nordic countries, and they work. Look at any ranking for things like democracy, happiness, crime rates, standard of living, freedom of the press, social mobility, egalitarianism etc., and the top ten is almost always the Nordic countries and other social democracies with similar systems.

Not that I think it would ever work in the US, despite Sander's best efforts. It requires a certain level of mutual trust, and if there's one thing lacking in the current political climate it's trust. Each half of the country thinks the other half is insane and lying through their teeth, and one particular half is actually insane and completely divorced from reality. Maybe in a generation or two, after the current resurgence in socialist thought has been entrenched and mainstreamed and all the old guard has fucked off to the grave.

France has a much better chance, if only they can get rid of Macron and his neoliberal horseshit (which in my opinion is the main driver for declining trust. I see it happening gradually where I live. The more liberal we are with market forces the worse it gets as more and more of society is measured in money and nothing else) and not get hijacked by the right.
Having a wildly unpopular socialist in charge before Macron showed up doesn't help though.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:37 pm

Sounder wrote: it will be plain to all that the bankers have overstepped their proper role and have no proper claim to be the issuers of currency. Remove that privilege and these fortunes will melt away.


"The bankers" do not issue currency. In the United States, Congress appropriates money. The Federal Reserve creates the money that Congress appropriates—not a penny more—and the Treasury Dept. spends it. That's how currency (money, more technically) is issued.

Commercial banks are different; they create money when they lend it, but bank loans are constantly being repaid, and the amounts are zeroed out, thus having no effect on the money supply. Too much lending can 'overheat' the economy, and the Fed can put the brakes on with higher interest rates.


In short, the solution for melting away fortunes lies elsewhere.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:09 am

I do not know much about money, so I looked a bit. Maybe the conversation can be continued on the MMT thread.

I seem to get tripped up as I wonder where the banks and FED get the money to buy treasuries, and suspect that interest has something to do with it. I would suppose that while the principle of a loan gets zeroed out, the interest is added to the balance sheet.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Elvis » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:25 pm

Sounder » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:09 am wrote:I do not know much about money, so I looked a bit. Maybe the conversation can be continued on the MMT thread.

I seem to get tripped up as I wonder where the banks and FED get the money to buy treasuries, and suspect that interest has something to do with it. I would suppose that while the principle of a loan gets zeroed out, the interest is added to the balance sheet.


I think one issue with the yellow vests, which is maybe not fully perceived by most parties, is that money is not being used properly by the issuing authorites, in this case the EU; the EU creates its own money, like the US does, but in both cases the money creation—or non-creation as the case may be—is misued to further neoliberal aims.

By all means dig into the MMT thread! Would love to see more discussion and exploration there. It relates directly to so many topics.
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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:50 am



Complete Western Media Blackout! Paris Week 15
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:02 pm

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