French Uprising of December 2018

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:12 pm

.

Let's get this back on track by considering Harvey's post:

Harvey » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:30 pm wrote:France is ablaze with protest and dissent. There is, let's just whisper it, a revolution going on. From Google to Bing (including all sites using either as an engine) you wouldn't know it. The English language conspiracy including all Western mainstream media (with a few notable exceptions) are doing their job, to fundamentally distort our perception of reality. The French working class are Russian Nazi's we're told, despite the inherent contradictions.

As many times as we see it, it's always breathtaking to behold directly.



The above is not a local problem, it's global. Having read virtually the same copy attached to a particular story, often varying only in sentence order, across various outlets and languages I know it's as bad now as it's ever been. As wealthy denizens of the West are quietly building underground shelters beneath mansions throughout the affluent suburbs, French working class have had enough. This report came early on from Benn Swann. He does his best to address the oddity, but as much as I like him, he barely scratches the surface, even of the issue he chooses to highlight, 'Carbon Tax sparks off protests'



He can't really get into the more general point, why 'solutions' to climate crisis proposed by the polluting industries and their pet governments are 'consumer led.' The cost of industrial activity is always shunted upon those least able to bear it by those most responsible. From plastic, to fracking, to oil spills, to carbon, to pesticides, to heavy metals, to endocrine disruptors. Like many notionally independent voices Swann appears mindful of the complex swirl of ideas comprising his audience. Generational indoctrination compounded by employability* lead a large segment of his audience to believe that the climate crisis is a 'big government' hoax to raise taxes.** In their world, tax rises are at least as evil as aggressive war and for many, an order of magnitude greater. Even if current tax arrangements disproportionally affect them, tax proposals only affecting the relatively affluent are off the menu as a matter of dietary principle. (That may be changing.)

A generally accepted polluter pays principle remains quite simply unthinkable. Why? Jobs. Peace is unthinkable. Why? Jobs. We can send a man to the moon but we can't process the seeming 'enormity' of redirecting skilled workers toward peaceful (and even lucrative) ends.

Despite government and taxes being responsible for all major infrastructure programs from roads, schools, hospitals, Universities, science and technology R&D, the Internet Interent itself, etc tax is inherently evil. Through public spending on everything from bank bailouts to aviation fuel subsidies, corporations have reaped the benefit of all this investment while successfully demonising government and the taxation system that built it all. House media bang on about 'big government' as the enemy and taxes as a clear obstacle to freedom but neither need be the case. Only international co-operation of state governments hold the solution to our most urgent problems. And despite the body corporate actually owning governments, lock, stock and barrel, spending continues to grow, debt continues to rise and government continues to be the villain.

Here's an interesting pair of graphs:

Global military spending 2017.jpg


But 'we can't afford healthcare.'

If government is so intrinsically evil in 'corporate think' why has 'industry' colonised most of it's functions at a knock down price? What do they know that their media representatives apparently don't? Why are corporations charging people far more for services than services used to cost in taxes? In return for far worse and far less universal service? Taxes have not fallen much for average Americans as a result of decades of selling off infrastructure and utilities (paid for in decades of back breaking graft by the people) but these parasites rent it all back to Americans at a premium, while assuring them that benefits are parasitical and that work shall set them free.

The twentieth century, with a few noticeable interruptions, the new deal for example, has been a gradual process of acclimatising the population to accept labour and tax laws which disfavour them absolutely and disproportionately advantage a vanishingly small elite.

Yet:

“In America, anyone can be president.”

“In America, with hard work, anyone can make their fortune.”


That most people demonstrably don't, that incomes and life expectancy are falling while inequality is rising exponentially has been difficult for the majority not to notice. God knows they've tried.

That the world cannot sustain even one America under these unequal conditions is apparent enough, but to sustain an America where everyone squanders resources like a millionaire would require several worlds we don't have. There are now insurmountable contradictions inherent in the cultural beliefs of the nation, in it's history, traditions and stories. It would not be unfair, from a North European perspective, to call this the 'Cult of America.' We've hardly done much better in the UK but there remains a critical distance between most Europeans and their nation states as expressed by corporate and popular culture.

Macron, currently presiding over sweeping privatisation and 'financialisation' of the French economy represents a definite sense of the Reagan/Thatcher and Blair era's combined and accelerated. A fact not lost upon the French working class but which hardly merits any recognition in the view from English language media.

Clearly it's not within any media agenda to delineate Macron's idealogical extremism when they share it. In the second round of French presidential elections the only candidate to offer remotely progressive policies was, confusingly, Le Pen's Front Nationale, strategically occupying the political vacuum of anything notionally resembling 'the left.' Western media exclusion of the left resulted in this 'shock' battle between the far right Le Pen, wearing a social and economic left(ish) clown costume and Macron, urbane in the appearance of socially left(ish) but economically extreme far right. Elite banker Macron. Macron dressed in his dapper but very grey 'centrist' business suit. The freedom of (no) choice had predictable results, generating scenes more reminiscent of the (media embargoed) scenes in Catalonia than the Great Return March, but with Israeli training and tactics behind both. The Catalan independence government are currently awaiting trial for crimes against democracy. Israeli apartheid government with it's new racial laws, is not.

Before all of this, France, within the EU was a lone voice against the insanity of Iraq. Today Italy within the EU is almost a lone voice against the insanity of Venezuela. By the time that French TV stations were allegedly being hacked by ISIS France was already engaged alongside USUK in Syria. The supposed hack of French TV came not long after Charlie Hebdoe (yes,currently demonising the working class in it's pages) but before Bataclan and the explosions in Brussels airport and many more dramatic shootings in Paris immediately before the election. (Recalling events in the two months prior to the 2017 UK General Election.)

All of this reminded us, if we needed reminding, that the morality of those who 'catalyse events' *** is inimical to the continuation of civilisation. Their death wish is more fanatical than any Jihadist precisely because it is invisible not just to the majority, but to themselves.

As Britain seemingly prepared to desert it's appointed role as America's Trojan Horse to Europe, in 2014 and one year before the formation of Cambridge Analytica (owned and directed by literal British aristocracy and Conservative establishment figures but attributed in The Guardian to Russia) a film called Edge of Tomorrow posited an unreasoning alien menace resident beneath the surface of everyday life in Paris. To which the solution was of course a futuristic US military led by Top Gun propaganda veteran Tom Cruise. I noticed what themes were in play but few others seemed to. I wrote about it elsewhere and predicted the broad shape of subsequent events in France.

In retrospect, it seems easy to suggest France was always destined to assume the mantle vacated by Britain in a Europe increasingly dominated by corporate economic doctrines. But increasingly, as we've seen incrementally in Libya, Syria and now Venezuela, France has been pushing America's wider international agenda of complete 'full spectrum dominance.' Comparing the welcome Vladimir Putin could expect at European summits just a few short years ago with today, we might assume this plan is near to fruition but in truth, we are probably no more than a year or more from it's total collapse.

The European population is increasingly appalled by American driven wars while it's media desperately crank out increasingly schizophrenic justifications or condemnations according to their leadership and the inability to either separate or further immerse themselves. Trump can be at once a laughable buffoon in France, but (first under Hollande) then with Macron, France has quietly stepped into the breach left by the UK, even before that hole began to appear, fully capable of laughing at Trump yet following doggedly on America's military and economic leash.

The French working class are having none of it as Europe slides toward a world war of American design and American objectives, at the very moment the neo-liberal order and consumer capitalism has itself reached the final terminus. Either through cataclysmic ecological collapse, world war or by catastrophic economic collapse.

Or perhaps, because others will have seized control and begun the necessary international remedial action on a massive scale.

Once again, Gramsci is speaking directly to the now: "The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters." And the impending break up of an unreformed EU can only accelerate, once any of the first three options above begin to take place.

The latter option includes such actions as:

Immediate global demilitarisation (there is no other choice available apart from total ecological suicide)

Massive economic and financial reform

Reforestation on a global scale including massive subsidy to countries like Brazil and Venezuela to preserve their remaining rainforest. This is more than plausible.Globally, more than $2 trillion in annual subsidy goes to fossil fuels. (This figure is from 2015 although up to date and accurate figures are hard to find. The figure may be far higher today)

A complete and immediate change in energy production and use. Plurality of approaches to R&D and implementation.

The roll out of electric transport across the west

Massive social and infrastructure investment in poor, hot regions where the majority of old and dirty technology is incompatible with modification. Building of solar farms, solar powered desalination plants along coastlines, irrigating deserts and rolling out electric transport at cost price to their populations. In return, transport of electricity to the 'first world'



The French may be pointing the way, right now, but the mass of us can neither see them, nor understand what they represent.



* "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

** “Taxes are what we pay for civilized society.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

*** "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby liminalOyster » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:44 pm

Heaven Swan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:53 am wrote:For a peek outside of the bubble please check out these two YouTube videos,and especially the comment sections. They are by (very entertaining) black commentators who are sick and tired of race being used to divide and conquer. The term SJW is frequently used. Streetwise African Americans aren’t easily fooled.


That woman is half of a YT channel called "Truther Talk" and one of their most recent videos is called "Aborted Babies for Profit."

This is the third time, at least, that you've posted boiler plate pseudo-astro-turf MAGA stuff.

Can you explain? I don't want to jump to conclusions.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Heaven Swan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:28 pm

liminalOyster » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:44 pm wrote:
Heaven Swan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:53 am wrote:For a peek outside of the bubble please check out these two YouTube videos,and especially the comment sections. They are by (very entertaining) black commentators who are sick and tired of race being used to divide and conquer. The term SJW is frequently used. Streetwise African Americans aren’t easily fooled.


That woman is half of a YT channel called "Truther Talk" and one of their most recent videos is called "Aborted Babies for Profit."

This is the third time, at least, that you've posted boiler plate pseudo-astro-turf MAGA stuff.

Can you explain? I don't want to jump to conclusions.


Please see the Big banks, EU and the Euro thread and the video of Yanis Varoufakis starting at around minute 34.

We need to find a new understanding of the situation. Stop demonizing and start listening to people on the right. We’re losing good people who are fed up. The left has been colonized and coopted by sneaky social planners funded by billionaires and big banks. If we don’t step out of our bubble/comfort zone we won’t be able to understand the real problems of common people.

Jerky’s (god bless his soul) version of the war machine loving leftist who has no clue what class is is what they’re aiming for.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:49 am

.

Restricting abortion rights is class war, just as much as wage suppression is class war. Targeting women for not conforming to (often invented) traditional norms is practically the #1 move of those who would divide and defeat or coopt segments of working-class movements, ever since there was a working class. The anti-"SJW" propaganda also contributes to this, blaming the divisions resulting from attacks or discrimination against particular minorities exclusively on these minorities (and never acknowledging that the "minorities" add up to the majority).

"We" do not have to "listen to the right" if this right offers something worse than the status quo. They do not win points for adding a plank that's worthwhile, as the extreme right-wing tends to do, or for reposting a video of Varoufakis. Similarly, imperialism is not justified just because some imperialists also claim to support legitimate rights and protections for minorities (or when Raytheon supports education for girls). This is usually opportunistic lip service. Christianists searching for witches to burn may also advance egalitarian claims or support elements of economic justice. So what. The philosophy espoused by these people has undergone a long decline, and its exponents are glomming on to the anti-1% surge. It's Bannon-Trumpism. If they're so devoted to justice, why don't they put aside their desires to meddle in the lives of others and focus on justice?

Clearly, you are the one who in this thread is eventually going to be telling us why we really need to listen to LePen's people, thus providing fodder for Jerky's view. These are complementary moves. You said you like Jerky as your foil, that makes sense. It's opportunistic. It's also exploiting and misrepresenting the Yellow Jackets for the purposes of Anglosphere politics.

Can you stop pretending please? I guess this applies to everyone. Be open about your political affinities. If you are genuinely confused, then you need to figure it out. The camouflage (or the pretense, or the self-delusion) that somehow ideology never matters, that there is one "we" here equally represented by Christianist fanatics or "the left," or that one can be magically prepolitical and uncorrupted, is a hypocrisy, a form of purity politics achieved by denying politics. It doesn't work. It suggests you think others are stupid and can't even see through the trash you post.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Jerky » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:47 am

Oh, I am LOVING this.

Two people who seem to have zero understanding of either my politics or their own, arguing over what they suspect i believe/know/understand/have experienced firsthand about "class" (!) or (for fuck;'s sake) the ANGLOSPHERE (GUFFAW!!!).

By all means, please continue!
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:09 am

.

One characteristic you share with HS is a vigorous anti-intellectualism, at least whenever it suits your purposes.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:48 am

Harvey on Swann...
He can't really get into the more general point, why 'solutions' to climate crisis proposed by the polluting industries and their pet governments are 'consumer led.'


Maybe they are 'consumer led' because CC is intended to be another profit center for corporations from the start.


The cost of industrial activity is always shunted upon those least able to bear it by those most responsible. From plastic, to fracking, to oil spills, to carbon, to pesticides, to heavy metals, to endocrine disruptors.


One excellent way to pass off costs is to gaslight people and make huge press and foundation efforts to convince them they can 'save the world' by simply turning down the Carbon Dioxide knob, over at control central. Meanwhile they all 'support' CC, while they continue to produce all manner of toxins to feed this consumerist machine. While the environmentalists forget previous commitments towards the health of the Earth because they do not pay so well.

Yes Virginia, there is a fake left and the unhappy result benefits the corporations.

Small aside; Jack pointed out a Gallup pole late last year that indicated that less than one percent of the population thought Russiagate was a big issue. That same poll indicated that CC also registered under one percent.


Like many notionally independent voices Swann appears mindful of the complex swirl of ideas comprising his audience. Generational indoctrination compounded by employability* lead a large segment of his audience to believe that the climate crisis is a 'big government' hoax to raise taxes.** In their world, tax rises are at least as evil as aggressive war and for many, an order of magnitude greater.


I'm pretty sure that the 'generalized indoctrination' is that there is a Carbon caused climate crisis. Taxes that build infrastructure and care for the less able are useful and accepted by most everyone. What regular folk resent are the monies spent to fluff up the vanity of some already very rich people.

One theme I noticed with the Yellow Vests is a disdain for politics of both the left and the right. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway I like it because it reflects my opinion that ideas are something that you have while ideology is something that has you.

There are open questions that we might do well to address. Are nation states obsolete?
Do the French people think that? If you consider that nation states are obsolete, who do you support, the EU that believes the same, or Yellow Vest activists who seem intent on seizing back their nation? From an elite that has always considered that they own it, and they have the securities that say so.

And so many others.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Jerky » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:37 am

Funny how declaring a pox on both houses (in this case, politics of the left and right) so often ends up benefiting one house over the other (in this case, the right).

In any case, a yellow vest is just a yellow vest. It can be worn by whomever wishes, in the service of whatever political tendency.

In Canada, those protesters who have picked up the Gillets Jaune mantle have, for the most part, been Right Wing. Even Far Right. Participation in other countries has varied greatly. The Gilets Jaunes in France certainly includes Far Right elements:

https://twitter.com/A_SHEKH0VTS0V/statu ... 4993907714

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Harvey » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:56 am

Sounder » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:48 pm wrote:Harvey on Swann...
He can't really get into the more general point, why 'solutions' to climate crisis proposed by the polluting industries and their pet governments are 'consumer led.'


Maybe they are 'consumer led' because CC is intended to be another profit center for corporations from the start.


The cost of industrial activity is always shunted upon those least able to bear it by those most responsible. From plastic, to fracking, to oil spills, to carbon, to pesticides, to heavy metals, to endocrine disruptors.


One excellent way to pass off costs is to gaslight people and make huge press and foundation efforts to convince them they can 'save the world' by simply turning down the Carbon Dioxide knob, over at control central. Meanwhile they all 'support' CC, while they continue to produce all manner of toxins to feed this consumerist machine. While the environmentalists forget previous commitments towards the health of the Earth because they do not pay so well.

Yes Virginia, there is a fake left and the unhappy result benefits the corporations.

Small aside; Jack pointed out a Gallup pole late last year that indicated that less than one percent of the population thought Russiagate was a big issue. That same poll indicated that CC also registered under one percent.


Like many notionally independent voices Swann appears mindful of the complex swirl of ideas comprising his audience. Generational indoctrination compounded by employability* lead a large segment of his audience to believe that the climate crisis is a 'big government' hoax to raise taxes.** In their world, tax rises are at least as evil as aggressive war and for many, an order of magnitude greater.


I'm pretty sure that the 'generalized indoctrination' is that there is a Carbon caused climate crisis. Taxes that build infrastructure and care for the less able are useful and accepted by most everyone. What regular folk resent are the monies spent to fluff up the vanity of some already very rich people.

One theme I noticed with the Yellow Vests is a disdain for politics of both the left and the right. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway I like it because it reflects my opinion that ideas are something that you have while ideology is something that has you.

There are open questions that we might do well to address. Are nation states obsolete?
Do the French people think that? If you consider that nation states are obsolete, who do you support, the EU that believes the same, or Yellow Vest activists who seem intent on seizing back their nation? From an elite that has always considered that they own it, and they have the securities that say so.

And so many others.



Your confusion is precisely the point of my argument. It's much more likely the idea of a carbon tax emerged to intensify denial in US populations otherwise opposed to 'business as usual.' The same Judo which now has the erstwhile ant-war faux left eating from an alphabet spoon. Popular mass dissemination of libertarian ideals have successfully induced hatred of state and taxation in any form, to the degree that even the firmly established causal link between carbon and warming must be denied, if not the fact of warming itself.* Assumptions about state are never questioned.

Corporate captors of state are very happy to keep the population hating state and tax, this suits them perfectly. All the easier to own it and utilise tax resentment to derail any move to begin to tax them. They are the chief recipients of tax law while you are a mere aspirant. Go on, make your fortune. One day, you too can dodge your taxes, after you strike it rich.

* Dandelions have been in flower every Christmas day for the last five years here in the North West of England, a situation which is most definitely abnormal.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:12 am

Sounder » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:48 am wrote:Small aside; Jack pointed out a Gallup pole late last year that indicated that less than one percent of the population thought Russiagate was a big issue. That same poll indicated that CC also registered under one percent.


*poll

This was after two years of #Russiagate coverage that exceeded all prior media frenzies (OJ, Monica, 9/11, you name it) and described the unproven allegations as an all-time crisis, treason, foreign coup d'etat, Russian Hitler in Washington, etc. etc. Interest was still at 1%. Do you see the difference? The ratio of corporate media #Russiagate daily news reports to those explicitly covering the ecological upheaval caused by capitalism was what, 20:1? 90:1? If similar coverage had been devoted to the rising global temperatures as a consequence of hydrocarbon consumption and deforestation, if the talk had been about the icecaps and the rising sea levels and decades of oil company coverups instead of "Russian hacking," you can be certain the proportion of the public describing that as the greatest challenge facing the nation would be far higher than 1%. Especially because of the other difference: one "story" is a constant harangue about things that are mostly untrue, exaggerated or unprovable and generally without context, which have little relation to the lives of the 99% who are not that interested in it despite the bullshit flood, and, shockingly, also have very little to do with those real outrages of the Trump-Pence regime that are genuinely unprecedented and dangerous. The other story is actually true and important and impacts everyone, is unfolding before us daily and actually requires urgent action or will cause catastrophes that disrupt the fundamentals of how everyone lives and dies. Understanding of ecology is also confounded by two powerful denialist forces with deeply rooted interests in the eco-destructive status quo: one, led by oil-money PR and religious benightenment, pretends ecological dynamics are some kind of "liberal" hoax or far-future problem that will be managed in a century or two without the predictable upheavals; the other, upheld by the besieged corporate "liberal" establishment and media, pretends that these dynamics can be managed and tweaked immediately without major changes to the political economy and the class systems because the necessary changes can be effected by the means of technocratic market-oriented tweaks like carbon taxes, carbon trading, and personal consumption decisions among the present set of supplied offerings. And, anyway, SQUIRREL! RUSSIANS! SEX! CATS! CELEBRITIES! OUTRAGES! DRAMA! COMEDY! DAILY SUGAR! DECONTEXTUALIZED DISASTERS! OH THE HUMANITY! HOW YOU CAN HELP! TWEETS! WEATHER! SNOW! HEAT! SPORTS! BLOCKBUSTERS! GAMES! LOSE WEIGHT, LOOK GREAT! IMPROVE YOURSELF! IT ALL STARTS WITH YOU! STAY POSITIVE! NEW PILLS TO TAKE! FIND LOVE IN THE WEIRDEST PLACES! MARRY AND REPRODUCE! A HEARTWARMING STORY! SUPPORT THE TROOPS! HERE IS A FLAG, SALUTE! WE ARE ALL AMERICANS, TOGETHER! FAIR AND BALANCED! GET BACK TO WORK! PAY YOUR BILLS! GET DOLLARS! DOLLARS DOLLARS DOLLARS! THIS IS YOUR GOD! LOVE YOUR FAMILY! FOR THE CHILDREN! NOW A MESSAGE FROM OUR SPONSORS! OUR LINES ARE OPEN 24 HOURS! CALL NOW! YOUR SCREEN IS CALLING YOU! YOU HAVE 167 MESSAGES WAITING! TOUCH THE BLUE LIGHT! STROKE IT! STROKE IT!

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:43 am

Jack wrote...
you share with HS is a vigorous anti-intellectualism.


Heaven Sean brought to us Jane Clare Jones, -best 'intellectual' shit I have read in ages.

Jack wrote...
This was after two years of #Russiagate coverage that exceeded all prior media frenzies (OJ, Monica, 9/11, you name it) and described the unproven allegations as an all-time crisis, treason, foreign coup d'etat, Russian Hitler in Washington, etc. etc. Interest was still at 1%. Do you see the difference? The ratio of corporate media #Russiagate daily news reports to those explicitly covering the ecological upheaval caused by capitalism was what, 20:1? 90:1?


Many folk go to 'Capitalism' as the cause of so much bad stuff, yet the Soviets or Chinese never thought about ecological upheaval either. It is a symptom rather than a cause IMO. My main blood pressure medication is to not consume MSM, but during times of social emotional stress i will watch a bit to find out the important 'programming' objectives of MSM. People are easier to program during those times. During the Boston saga the CC programming was thick. What is the ratio of pro to anti CC messaging on MSM? About 100 to 1?

Jack wrote...
If similar coverage had been devoted to the rising global temperatures as a consequence of hydrocarbon consumption and deforestation, if the talk had been about the icecaps and the rising sea levels and decades of oil company coverups instead of "Russian hacking," you can be certain the proportion of the public describing that as the greatest challenge facing the nation would be far higher than 1%.

Sha, that coverage has only recently been displaced by the Trump circus. Hey how about 'talk about' insect die off from the MSM? That would sort of spoil many peoples self image that think they are 'saving' the world by driving a Prius.

People collectively are smarter than given credit for and after years of AGW and now CC pushing, most still do not care. Those that do care, do so because it helps shield themselves from considering their culpability and involvement in the many other real and imminent threats to society.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:13 am

JackRiddler » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:13 am wrote:
Sounder wrote:Many folk go to 'Capitalism' as the cause of so much bad stuff, yet the Soviets or Chinese never thought about ecological upheaval either.


Others, like you, prefer to deny that the Soviet regime pursued the same mode of production as their Western capitalist competitors. They were clunky and stupid and did so to an even greater ecological extreme, beginning in an era when ecology was barely a concern in either ideological camp, under conditions of permanent attack from the outside and with a very weak capital base. The social creeds and the societies differed, but the productionist organization of the Soviet societies' economic powers did not. Ostensibly they believed they were managing the "capitalist stage" with an eventual (fictional) horizon of communism in some far future after the Cold War. In their industrialization phase, party planners looked at the real-existing capitalism of the West and decided, correctly, that the industrial takeoff had been preceded by a phase of "primitive accumulation" requiring vast amounts of colonial forced labor and destruction of traditional sustenance economies. They decided to use the Slavic peasantry and the indigenes of Siberia and Central Asia as the internal colonies for the purpose of building the infrastructure and accumulating the capital for the industrial take off. They also felt surrounded and compelled to follow the same models of industrialism and macro-accounting that prevailed in the Western capitalist countries, including the pursuit of enterprise profit as an end in itself. They adopted the fateful GDP, a god that only knows always how to add and never to subtract. The regime was party dictatorship by open violence and the big-lie creed was "Communism," but the economic practice is properly characterized as state capitalism, a.k.a. "real-existing Socialism." In their final decades, they did their damndest to reproduce the consumerist prosperity model of the West, and failed, miserably. By comparison, anyway: the "standard of living" was better than in the capitalist-controlled Third World. At least they helped Cuba escape the fates of the rest of the Caribbean and Central American regions, which are blessed with capitalist regimes. Rest in hell, motherfuckers.

China today is the most important industrial producer and on its way to becoming the new financial center of the global capitalist system. Outside its borders it is valorized by the Western "markets" for playing capitalism by the neoliberal rules, for understanding how business is supposed to work, for its productive and disciplined labor regime, and for its breakneck pursuit of technological dominance. Never mind the bodies, it is considered the biggest capitalist success story of recent decades. When the great lovers of private property like Bill Gates and Steven Pinker talk about the "decline of extreme poverty," they know at least 50% of that trend is Made in China. And yet they credit this to capitalism, not communism, and to China's commitment to meritocratic management of maximizing production integrated into the global capitalist markets. The oligarchic practices and corruption are no more extreme than elsewhere and China is on its way to producing the majority of the world's billionaires, if it has not already. They go to Davos too, when they're not being arrested in Canada. China demonstrates, to the barely hidden satisfaction of Western neoliberal ideologists, that democracy and capitalism need not go together, and are historically separable phenomena. The message from large segments of the Western capitalist ruling class has been that "we" need to be more like China -- or else! Trump does not differ in his commitment to the same neoliberal creed of how labor should behave. Choking in its smog, today China is showing about as much or slightly more concern for ecological sustainability as the Western regimes. It is engaged simultaneously in the biggest projects to convert to solar energy, and also opening enough new coal mines to provide its outsize share in overdetermining the planetary catastrophe. Both of these industries are run by the capitalist rules.

In writing the above, I do not expect to influence your false and confusionist use of terms and determination to stick to your ideological construct of "CC." Your benightenment is your own. I cannot keep you from bizarroland riffs about the Boston Marathon bombing as part of an operation designed to deliver a socialist climate-change brainwash. (Wow!) I write this in the hope anyone reading this exchange between us gets the damn point, and for use in future writing. (I think the above two paragraphs will serve that end as outlines.) I feel no need to differ with your critique of the way the corporate media present the ecological issues, and laugh at your attempt to associate my thinking with that babble.

Your attempt to wedge in a difference between "CC" (your own way of constructing it so as to deny it) and the ecological catastrophe of which carbon emissions are a major driving element is just another form of denial and compartmentalization. The eco catastrophe killing the insects and global warming are the same thing. Or, rather, the global warming brought about by uncontrolled carbon emissions, ocean poisoning and the destruction of primary forest land is a big but hardly the only element constituting the ecological catastrophe. The eco catastrophe is driven by the capitalist organization of political economy. It proceeds from a mode of production that requires prodigious quantities of energy derived from hydrocarbon burning and generates enormous wastes in every stage of the production, consumption and disposal processes. This capitalist organization of economy, which resists planning and public spending if they are unprofitable but loves planning and public spending if they foster GDP growth, requires hydrocarbon burning and generates enormous wastes because these practices generate revenues and profits on the ledgers of enterprises competing for buyers on markets, and thus creates outlets in which the financial sector can invest at an ROI. That is true in China, the United States, Europe, Russia, Japan, the oil-producing countries, India, Latin America, Africa and Oceania. That is real-existing capitalism.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:11 am

JackRiddler » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:06 pm"

Social Justice Warrior" is an insult deployed (almost) exclusively by the right wing and other enemies of the left. I will not acceed to the use of enemy language, however naively you may be applying it. "SJW" is used so as to avoid and de-legitimate terms such as antiracist, antifascist, feminist, leftist, socialist, etc., which are things that actual people who do actual things and generally have legitimate causes actually call themselves. "SJW" is an imaginary character, like the tens of thousands of Caravan Mexicans coming to rape and pillage Duluth.

Like the use of "red" and "blue," it is an attempt to turn politics into psychology, or essence (to "essentialize"). Political views are not considered in terms of premises, interests, arguments and proposals, but as secondary functions of an ascribed identity, of a fashion or subculture, of an emotional state, or of some inner characteristic that can then be mocked, or treated like a psychological syndrome, or seen as a temporary insanity of the young. Of course, political views can be any or all of the above, but essentialization narrows them down to the latter set.

I'm having none of this. There is nothing "civil" about your use of this term. Not after I have told you this already several times. So no more excuses. It says you want to be my enemy. So in turn, I will not be lectured by you on how to be "civil."...


This is a small message board populated by posters who are familiar with each other. Respect and civility should be easy and the norm. This doesn’t mean avoiding conflict on issues under scrutiny. I thought that debating these issues was the whole point of the board.

But do as you will. I just don’t have it in me to hate you, Jerky or anyone who hasn’t been straight up abusive. If it comes to that I’d rather, as you say, “play in another playground.”


This is relevant—

Have you seen the Hidden Tribes research project?
https://hiddentribes.us/pdf/hidden_tribes_report.pdf

There seem to be definable differences between, for example, the “progressive” and “traditional” left.

Here’s an excerpt from the beginning:

At the root of America’s polarization are divergent sets of values and worldviews, or “core beliefs.” These core beliefs shape the ways that individuals interpret the world around them at the most fundamental level. Our study shows how political opinions stem from these deeply held core beliefs. This study examines five dimensions of individuals’ core beliefs:

– Tribalism and group identification
– Fear and perception of threat
– Parenting style and authoritarian disposition
– Moral foundations
– Personal agency and responsibility.

The study finds that this hidden architecture of beliefs, worldview and group attachments can predict an individual’s views on social and political issues with greater accuracy than demographic factors like race, gender, or income.

The research undertaken for this report identifies seven segments of Americans (or “tribes”) who are distinguished by differences in their underlying beliefs and attitudes. Membership in these tribes was determined by each individual’s answers



Now you’re quite barricaded in your belief about the goodness and righteousness of the progressive left, but If you ever deviate from their accepted positions I guarantee you’ll be singing a different tune.

Radical feminists who simply raised questions about whether men should be considered women under the law, medical transition of children, etc, have been demonized, death-threated, attacked, marginalized and censored. It has become common for women who’ve been kicked out of left wing parties and groups (like the Communist Party) to show up at RadFem meetings. They definie themselves politically homeless.

Does this trouble you in the least Jack?
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:14 am

I've bid bye-bye for a while (see "Archive Failure" thread), but to be courteous and go out by planting a seed, I have replied to your recommendation of "Hidden Tribes" here.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41596


HS, I find your last question either forgetful or disingenuous, but in any case unworthy of response given our earlier exchanges on the threads about feminism and transgender issues.

I do not belong to "the left" as one belongs to an "identity" or a "tribe." Through observation and re-thinking, I arrive it at ideas that happen to be called "leftist" on a reliable but not exclusive basis, and so, in real-life political organizing, I tend to congregate with groups following such principles in their action.

Anyway, enjoy making this another thread about confused appraisals of American political tropes.

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We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
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The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:45 am

...
Liminal Oyster wrote: That woman is half of a YT channel called "Truther Talk" and one of their most recent videos is called "Aborted Babies for Profit."

This is the third time, at least, that you've posted boiler plate pseudo-astro-turf MAGA stuff.

Can you explain? I don't want to jump to conclusions.



*bolding mine

I'm responding to LO, who responded to my post (copied below) LO Please note: I am writing this as a political strategy discussion with a respected RI member, not as an attack

This is one of the current "Progressive left" political attitudes and behaviors that I see as toxic and misguided i.e. hounding and smearing others for reading or watching right wing peoples views. Tarring people as 'racist", "fascist" or "misogynist" (laughable in my case), for attempting to have a well-rounded understanding of others is censorious.

In the past, in the US and in some other countries, leftists trained and encouraged each other to read politically far and wide. How can you understand and counter those with whom you disagree if they are "off limits" and you risk getting called --insert smear--if you read or quote them?

This censorious "sheepdog" policing and shaming helps create the echo chamber or bubble. Also, Facebook addiction seems to foster a mob mentality. Apparently, many FB junkies have become incapable of having an original thought.

I'll tell you, the right pays attention to what we on the left do. In my current exploration of European realities I've discovered that the Italian neo-fascist group Casa Pound is running free community meal and medical programs, like the Black Panthers used to do in the US.

https://youtu.be/6gEs21wTtAY
CasaPound and the Italian Radical Right





Heaven Swan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:53 am wrote:Exactly Sounder.
You leftist brothers (and sisters? How many female posters remain?) need to take a peek out of your bubble. And please don’t spoil the fun here at RI. I happen to be fond of Jerky, but if he seriously supports NATO and is militantly neoliberal then we need him here as a foil in order to debate important issues.

And Jack, I will respond to your post later. I overslept and have to leave for work now. I will say that I don’t see you as an SJW, I was just trying to make a point about debating etiquette. And I definitely don’t see you as my enemy, but as a fascinating online friend (who goes a long way in keeping this board alive).

For a peek outside of the bubble please check out these two YouTube videos,and especially the comment sections. They are by (very entertaining) black commentators who are sick and tired of race being used to divide and conquer. The term SJW is frequently used. Streetwise African Americans aren’t easily fooled.




Jussie Smollett ALLEGED attack is INTERESTING
303,694 views



Jussie Smollett and Damn Lies
40,163 views



Sounder » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:00 am wrote:
This board used to be left and anti-imperialist, now people are boosting NATO and wringing hands about "social justice warriors".

Nobody is 'wringing their hands' about "SJW's. It was a humorous vid poking fun at people that think a bit too highly of themselves. Speaking of which, do white people realize what many minority folk think about 'political correctness'. Apparently not; it is considered by many as yet another way for white people to maintain continuing superior and racist inclinations.

And anyway, I love to see Jerky boosting NATO, it goes well with the rest of his belief set.
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