...On 'Cancel' Culture

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:10 am

Joe Hillshoist » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:57 pm wrote:
Harvey » 16 Aug 2020 07:50 wrote:Much as I enjoy his music, he lost me when he decided to play in Israel, against the honest and reasonably expressed wishes of those on the receiving end of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. In any case:

and it may be that we are heading toward a more equal society


Who is he kidding?


Belligerent Savant wrote:.

Was not aware of his event in Israel; echo your sentiments there.


"A more equal society."

- why is there any hint that we'd arrive there, if we've yet to do so as a species?

Certain native tribes, historical or contemporary, may be exceptions. Welcome thoughts otherwise.


Back to the core point, though - i'd like to fast forward to the time when the thought-stopping refrains of cancel culture lead to the inevitable counter.

The cycle of culture.


So is this cancel culture in action?


Neither of us are calling to 'cancel' anyone or anything; merely expressing opinions. Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting your point?

For me to 'cancel' Nick Cave (which I certainly do not advocate. I believe Harvey also mentioned he'd still listen to his music regardless of his political stance/non-action, etc), I'd need to proclaim as much via, say, Twitter -- repeatedly, and if I'm really ambitious (self-righteous), start a 'social media campaign' clamoring for others to 'cancel' him (stop buying whatever he's selling, ignore his content, etc..).
Last edited by Belligerent Savant on Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 5261
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:45 am

Your contribution is very precious, Joe. As I've said twice now (I invite anyone else to look for themselves, the words are right up there^) nothing has changed in my appreciation of the work, Cave is an incomparable artist. He's just an arsehole as a 'pop star' and human being, whose views are worthless to me. Perhaps we should move on to that other incomparable artist, Woody Allen, I await your brilliant dissertation on how his films have been cancelled by me, for having pointed out that he's an arsehole on the internet. For the record (again) I endorse your right to have an opinion and speak it, just like Nick Cave, the poor darling.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4167
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:06 pm

A few addtional thoughts might be worthwhile.

I don't disqualify Nick Cave as any part of my mental infrastructure because he's an arsehole, so am I. I still listen to Woody Allen for example, although I don't much care for his personal dealings, he remains a strangely attractive character and a significant intellectual presence with the courage to make difficult artistic statements when it really matters. He's almost alone at this level today. Cave, by contrast, is a rolling bandwagon of theatrical and swaggering ego (which I very much enjoy) and in this he's not alone among his peers, except artistically, where he is clearly somewhere above many of them. His lack of reflection doesn't invalidate the art, but does moderate any value attaching to his views. Someone as justifiably vilified as Allen will nevertheless continue to make significant and unexpected contributions as long as he has breath in his body, he's that good. Cave, however, will knock out more good tunes and he may even blow our minds with the odd lyric, but is so far out of tune with his own insight and so integrated into the celebrity hive mind, I fear his best work is all behind him. It's a subjective view, and I'd like nothing more than for him to prove me utterly wrong. That all of his recent pronouncements are very much 'punching down' and align with the larger campaign to silence us all, by those he is notionally opposed to, make me want to express my opinion here. Frankly, it pisses me right off that someone with his platform complains of being intimidated by the fact that the rest of us can be heard murmuring from somewhere far below his own strata. His take on playing in Israel was a clear 'Fuck You' to Palestinians, aligning perfectly with Trumps interventions on Palestine, and all the presidents and prime ministers before him. He's chosen who he will fight for. I don't think he realises who that is yet.

To Nick Cave, I humbly say, fuck you, mate.

Edit: I didn't even know I felt this way until this thread. Before now there was just the background rising discomfort. Anyway, the very idea of 'cancel culture' is as pernicious as those condemning it are unremittingly vague about exactly what it is they condemn, the original article is a case in point.

Mercy is a value that should be at the heart of any functioning and tolerant society. Mercy ultimately acknowledges that we are all imperfect and in doing so allows us the oxygen to breathe — to feel protected within a society, through our mutual fallibility.


Who could disagree?

Without mercy a society loses its soul, and devours itself.


How could anyone disagree?

Yet mercy is not a given. It is a value we must nurture and aspire to. Tolerance allows the spirit of enquiry the confidence to roam freely, to make mistakes, to self-correct, to be bold, to dare to doubt and in the process to chance upon new and more advanced ideas. Without mercy society grows inflexible, fearful, vindictive and humourless.


The latter 'symptoms' have been the hallmarks of Western society as long as I recall with countless notable exceptions. :wink In other words, who could really disagree? So, what seems to be the problem?

As far as I can see, cancel culture is mercy’s antithesis. Political correctness has grown to become the unhappiest religion in the world.


I see.

Cancel culture’s refusal to engage with uncomfortable ideas.


Uncomfortable ideas such as: the 6th straight night of aerial bombardment of Gaza, 2 children executed in the street, several Palestinian homes and one apartment block demolished, all in the last week, and zero media discussion and not much more awareness.

Compassion is the primary experience — the heart event — out of which emerges the genius and generosity of the imagination. Creativity is an act of love that can knock up against our most foundational beliefs, and in doing so brings forth fresh ways of seeing the world.


Who could possibly disagree?
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4167
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Cordelia » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:19 pm

Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:06 am wrote:
I still listen to Woody Allen for example, although I don't much care for his personal dealings, he remains a strangely attractive character and a significant intellectual presence with the courage to make difficult artistic statements when it really matters. He's almost alone at this level today.


Someone as justifiably vilified as Allen will nevertheless continue to make significant and unexpected contributions as long as he has breath in his body, he's that good.


¿Qué? You lost me--do you mean:

Image
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
User avatar
Cordelia
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:48 pm

I do actually like his music, and the choice of music in his films. I meant his arguments. His art still surprises and challenges me.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4167
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

ON THREATS TO FREEDOMS OF SPEECH AND THE PRESS

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:00 pm

.

ON THREATS TO FREEDOMS OF SPEECH AND THE PRESS

After brainstorming, here is a list of major threats to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and freedom of political expression emanating from systemic power centers and powerful actors and institutions in the United States, Britain, and other "Western" countries:

- Treatment of Assange, Snowden, and Manning.

- Recent treatment of other government and corporate whistleblowers.

- The many arms of the surveillance state and its recent explosive growth in scope, depth, integration, legal cover, sophistication, and power potentials.

- The corporate-owned surveillance society: corporate collection of comprehensive and finely-grained data about everything everyone does at all times, with its chilling potential on speech; corporate moves toward establishing a more open system of Western-style "social credit ratings" like in China; online sorting of access to platforms, power and services by proprietary systems governed by unpublished algorithms.

- Direct corporate power over speech: the power of the corporate media and social-media cartels to determine whose speech and what views are favored; their power to block out and censor dissenting and outside views; to define what counts as a political issue and what doesn't, and to set the terms of political debates; and to designate what is and is not to be labeled as "propaganda," what qualifies as "conspiracy theory," as "fake," or as a "state propaganda" outlet, always basing these judgments on inconsistently applied criteria related to their own interests and unrelated to valid, coherent definitions of these categories.

- The routinely violent and extreme police response to protest and assembly, especially to those protesting police conduct and law enforcement and carceral policy.

- Actual movement fascists, movement racists, and like-minded persons shooting at protesters, running them over with cars, doxxing and threatening their lives, etc.

- The attempted designation by the government (and various patsies and interest groups) of a loosely-defined political stance against 'fascism as a primary enemy' (a.k.a. 'Antifa') as terrorist, inherently violent, or a powerful conspiracy in its own right. (This is one kind of current Red Scare.)

- The many other direct threats of actions against journalists made by the present administration and other high-ranking political figures.

- The push over several years to defame, block and censor those who do not conform with the general #Russiagate line, and cause them to lose their jobs, contracts, and venues. (Another kind of current Red Scare.)

- The so-far frighteningly successful push to block and censor those who express condemnation of Israeli actions or support for the BDS movement as necessarily "anti-Semitic," and to cause them to lose their jobs, contracts, and venues. (Yet another kind of current Red Scare. This is how the lion's share of the academics who have been terminated for political statements recently actually lost their jobs, but it is not a problem identified by anti-"Cancel Culture" signatories.)

- Recent state laws and federal regulations that make punishable, among other things, the publication of photos taken at factory farms; establish harsh prison sentences for blocking traffic, 'trespassing' on oil pipelines (including on your own land), or interfering with vaguely-defined 'governmental administration'; and give immunity to drivers who run over protesters.

- The hidden icebergs of the espionage-corporate complex: activities of state, state-backed, state-corporate, state or multi-state intel, and corporate-funded think-tanks, fronts, lobbies, PR and marketing outfits, infiltration efforts, cooptation efforts, and private "public service" or "non-governmental" initiatives, who engage in contracted propaganda operations, political manipulations, unannounced "nudges," and other activities in which they do not openly disclose themselves as agents or beneficiaries of their respective sponsors, and do not make clear their actual agendas. This is another potent form by which wealth controls, manipulates, misleads, suppresses, and chills political speech.

- Rigging and fraud in elections, lawmaking, and regulation: The dozens of ways in which regulation, legislation, and elections (the last being ostensibly the most important political expression available to the people) are now more openly and shamelessly rigged than ever by money; more money; yet more money; corporate lobbies; political machines; geostrategy and natsec lobbies; systematic voter suppression on a perpetually larger and ever-bolder scale; control by corporate media and its advertisers of public agendas, spins, and air-time granted to views, spokespersons, and candidates; planned scandal/crisis/distraction operations; strangleholds over primary and general election procedures and abuse thereof by the "major" parties; forced winner-take-all logic and moral shaming favoring the two "major" parties; gerrymandering; the inherently corrupt practice of legislative seniority; disinfo operations and fake scandals, and more. (And, presumably, through the use of proprietary black-box voting machines that are both riggable - from the inside - as well as hackable from the outside.)

- Organized panic campaigns that present any of the above, or other major threats to free speech, not primarily as functions of systemic features and power-groups operating from within the system, but as "attacks" on the system practiced by agents of vaguely defined foreign entities like "Russia" or "China," or by mysterious non-existent cabals of various kinds, or by annoying angry college students.

I hope that lends perspective to the relative importance of 'Cancel Culture.' I'm sure this list is missing one or more items that also, generally, merit far greater concern. I wish it was unnecessary to add that this is not meant as an endorsement of 'Cancel Culture', however exactly we may define the concept. Nor is this a denial that some people have been unjustly treated and harmed by persons practicing what we might accurately call 'Cancel Culture.'

Nevertheless, I submit that if those who decry 'Cancel Culture' do not, with equal or greater vigor, also decry any of the items on the above list, they are exposing themselves:

a) as concernment liberals who do not understand or who wish to obscure the structures and sources of real power in our societies; or,

b) as persons striking faux-courageous stands against easy and relatively safe targets, like angry college students, usually on behalf of a (right-wing) political agenda; or,

c) as professional performers. artists, pundits or others who, for whatever reason, feel more threatened by audience rejection than by structural power and structural violence.

Independently of motive, however, they are

d) willing to function to buttress the established relations of power and violence in the Anglo-American or "Western" societies, by helping to engender a peripheral distraction from real power centers and bigger issues threatening freedom of speech and political expression in general.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15986
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Elvis » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:07 pm

I have no idea who Nick Cave is. I feel good about that! :partyhat
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7433
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Elvis » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:10 pm

George Floyd was canceled.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7433
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:50 pm

You're absolutely right, Jack.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4167
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:56 pm

Elvis » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:07 am wrote:I have no idea who Nick Cave is. I feel good about that! :partyhat


Not my intention and I hope I didn't contribute to that... I'm way too angry lately, was probably getting something off my chest, ahem. I mean:

And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4167
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby norton ash » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:18 pm

I don't cancel anyone or anything unless it's real garbage or it offends me, but artists being unethical or criminal does affect how I view their work. Right now I'm pretty bothered by my worship of Paul Thomas Anderson being affected by new knowledge that he was a bad partner to Fiona Apple. Ryan Adams was a real disappointment too. But if it's good music or art, it stays on the playlist here.
Zen horse
User avatar
norton ash
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Canada
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Elvis » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:40 pm

Nah, I'm just bragging about how unhip I am. :eeyaa


Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:56 pm wrote:
Elvis » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:07 am wrote:I have no idea who Nick Cave is. I feel good about that! :partyhat


Not my intention and I hope I didn't contribute to that... I'm way too angry lately, was probably getting something off my chest, ahem. I mean:

“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7433
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby Grizzly » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:08 am

test.. something is fucky. Can this be seen? in others words is this showing?
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby chump » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:32 am

Grizzly » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:08 am wrote:test.. something is fucky. Can this be seen? in others words is this showing?




"I can't see! I'm blind!!
User avatar
chump
 
Posts: 2261
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:28 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: ...On 'Cancel' Culture

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:34 am

Grizzly » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:08 am wrote:test.. something is fucky. Can this be seen? in others words is this showing?


I see it. Do you see this?
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15986
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests