Market Crash Watch Party

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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Harvey » Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:33 am

drstrangelove » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:49 pm wrote:The costs we have suffered as a society to hide the effects of this inflationary monetary policy, to the extent it has been taken, have been transferred, with more fancy bookkeeping, to the rapid decline in quality of products we purchase and quality of environment we live in.

To keep the cost of living down, which is to say prices down, every single qualitative measure has been stripped away. And even still, we get price inflation beyond real wage growth.

If you want real price inflation, go purchase a proper quality product which is X5 the price of one most people can afford.

The more money created, the more inflation needs to be hidden in the destruction of goods, services, and environment.

They need to reduce the price of food, so create more food using chemical farming. More food of less nutrician at gradually higher prices and gradually declining human health.

Instead of organic materials like metals and woods, we now get plastics.

The list go on. And we have pushed this so far it is becoming untenable. Which means inflation can no longer be hidden, and the debt can no longer be tenable.

So they will end this cycle of quality destruction, and instead destroy the money supply and reset.

The assumption there is no inflation which is unmanageable is untrue. The inflation has been converted into quality destruction to keep prices down, but quality has been reduced about as far as it can go.

They have to keep pumping the food full of sugar because it has so little nutrician these days that it is almost rancid and people need a sweet tooth to taste something.


Good argument. Planned obsolescence is by itself one of the clearest indicators of something profoundly wrong with capitalism.

(On your last point, living in poverty most of my life has made me an excellent cook. And half of the ingredients can be found growing wild, by simply taking a short walk in the nearest bit of countryside or along the nearest water course.

I get extremely high from the food I prepare: a rich and subtle clarity arises. Partly by cooking at low temperature (preserves most of the delicate volatile chemicals in the plants) and in part by only using ingredients with little or no processing. For example, if you can make wine and you go for regular walks in early spring (you'll know where crocus' grow) with only a few crocus pistils, some cream and bit of durum wheat, you can make delicious pasta in white wine and saffron sauce. When cooked at the lowest possible temperature, every bite delivers a cool clear high that's very refreshing to experience. If you have a Bay bush nearby, simply adding a single leaf to a low temperature vegetable stock will do the same thing. You can use the resulting stock for almost anything.)
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby drstrangelove » Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:33 am

The migrant communities in my area eat better on less income than the health conscious gentrified demographics. It's not just ingredients though, its cooking as a ritual like you said, slowly, patient, to get the most out of food.

We have devalued our food So much we literally treat it like a whore. Cooking shows in western culture are soft core porns, you fuck your food hard and fast and throw it in the trash. I had friend who used to view eating as a chore. He tried to go on soylent because scoffing a can of beans uncooked became too much effort.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:22 pm

Harvey » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:33 am wrote:
(On your last point, living in poverty most of my life has made me an excellent cook. And half of the ingredients can be found growing wild, by simply taking a short walk in the nearest bit of countryside or along the nearest water course.

I get extremely high from the food I prepare: a rich and subtle clarity arises. Partly by cooking at low temperature (preserves most of the delicate volatile chemicals in the plants) and in part by only using ingredients with little or no processing. For example, if you can make wine and you go for regular walks in early spring (you'll know where crocus' grow) with only a few crocus pistils, some cream and bit of durum wheat, you can make delicious pasta in white wine and saffron sauce. When cooked at the lowest possible temperature, every bite delivers a cool clear high that's very refreshing to experience. If you have a Bay bush nearby, simply adding a single leaf to a low temperature vegetable stock will do the same thing. You can use the resulting stock for almost anything.)


Off-topic (or is it? Depending on scale of the looming crash -- or the 'reset' in the works -- this may be more important than most other considerations), but:

Ever consider drafting a cookbook, or 'blog' that digs into your methods? I'm sure many would sign right up to read it.

I need to do more of what you describe (the foraging part in particular. I already avoid processed foods but remain an apprentice at best in other areas)
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Harvey » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:48 pm



Strangely, many people I've cooked for have said this. Perhaps I should consider it!
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:21 pm

I'd go with a meal of the month blog, pointing out regional availability of local wild foods that will enhance any dish.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Harvey » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:55 pm

We could probably have a thread here on just that.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Grizzly » Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:18 pm

Super interested, please do this!!! ^^^
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:01 pm

"How is your market crash watch party going?"

>THEY'RE MAKING A FUCKING COOKBOOK

"That's nice, dear"
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:24 pm

Harvey » Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:33 am wrote:
drstrangelove » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:49 pm wrote:The costs we have suffered as a society to hide the effects of this inflationary monetary policy, to the extent it has been taken, have been transferred, with more fancy bookkeeping, to the rapid decline in quality of products we purchase and quality of environment we live in.

To keep the cost of living down, which is to say prices down, every single qualitative measure has been stripped away. And even still, we get price inflation beyond real wage growth.

If you want real price inflation, go purchase a proper quality product which is X5 the price of one most people can afford.

The more money created, the more inflation needs to be hidden in the destruction of goods, services, and environment.

They need to reduce the price of food, so create more food using chemical farming. More food of less nutrician at gradually higher prices and gradually declining human health.

Instead of organic materials like metals and woods, we now get plastics.

The list go on. And we have pushed this so far it is becoming untenable. Which means inflation can no longer be hidden, and the debt can no longer be tenable.

So they will end this cycle of quality destruction, and instead destroy the money supply and reset.

The assumption there is no inflation which is unmanageable is untrue. The inflation has been converted into quality destruction to keep prices down, but quality has been reduced about as far as it can go.

They have to keep pumping the food full of sugar because it has so little nutrician these days that it is almost rancid and people need a sweet tooth to taste something.


Good argument. Planned obsolescence is by itself one of the clearest indicators of something profoundly wrong with capitalism.

(On your last point, living in poverty most of my life has made me an excellent cook. And half of the ingredients can be found growing wild, by simply taking a short walk in the nearest bit of countryside or along the nearest water course.

I get extremely high from the food I prepare: a rich and subtle clarity arises. Partly by cooking at low temperature (preserves most of the delicate volatile chemicals in the plants) and in part by only using ingredients with little or no processing. For example, if you can make wine and you go for regular walks in early spring (you'll know where crocus' grow) with only a few crocus pistils, some cream and bit of durum wheat, you can make delicious pasta in white wine and saffron sauce. When cooked at the lowest possible temperature, every bite delivers a cool clear high that's very refreshing to experience. If you have a Bay bush nearby, simply adding a single leaf to a low temperature vegetable stock will do the same thing. You can use the resulting stock for almost anything.)


Hi Harvey, drstrangelove. I really don't feel the points raised by drstrangelove form a great argument. Indeed, I feel it wrong minded and will explain why, but first I want to comment upon something dsl wrote a while ago, that capitalism sought stasis in the marketplace. I strongly disagree with this as I believe capitalism thrives upon chaos.

"To keep the cost of living down, which is to say prices down, every single qualitative measure has been stripped away. And even still, we get price inflation beyond real wage growth."

Capitalists aren't concerned with the cost of living or in keeping prices down. In fact, they do their very best to raise retail costs to consumers as high as possible without losing market share to competitors. Their primary business concern is maximizing profits for their principals or stockholders and personal enrichment. Consumers can make a man a billionaire or put a company out of business. Has there ever been a time when inflation was in complete sync with real wage growth?

"If you want real price inflation, go purchase a proper quality product which is X5 the price of one most people can afford."

A bit unrealistic to suggest. Maybe try suggesting to folks to buy a loaf of bread.

"The more money created, the more inflation needs to be hidden in the destruction of goods, services, and environment."

Perhaps Elvis can make sense of this for me. I do not see the interest on US bonds as inflationary, or as a cause of the destruction of goods, services, and environment. I do feel and have written here I feel the international bond market will collapse before the 4th quarter of next year, and that would precipitate the collapse of society. A US revolution before is also another possibility.

"They need to reduce the price of food, so create more food using chemical farming. More food of less nutrician at gradually higher prices and gradually declining human health."

Once again, capitalists have no interest in reducing the price of food, but in charging consumers as much as they can without losing market share to competitors. Using chemicals for farming is to reduce costs to maximize farmers' and corporate growers profit. GMOS assure a returning customer base auto manufacturers would die for! Pay more for more nutritious foods or higher quality goods has always been the case, at least since the royalty put the pirates on the payroll. (and long before) Always and forever has wealth equated to privilege and excess, just about as long as we've had poor among us.

As Harvey has pointed out, some can find nutritious foods growing locally, the cost of which is only his time and energy.

"The list go on. And we have pushed this so far it is becoming untenable. Which means inflation can no longer be hidden, and the debt can no longer be tenable."

I don't believe inflation is "hidden." As I see it, it is in your face, always, when you are a consumer/ customer. It sure seems (US Govt.) debt has never be tenable, according to some.

"So they will end this cycle of quality destruction, and instead destroy the money supply and reset."

If there is a market for inferior products, they will continue being manufactured. I see no interest in destroying the money supply from anyone, but do see those seeking to convert it to a digital currency. The Great Reset is a Q story. But that doesn't mean a collapse will not occur.

dsl, you write from a place of comfort, as do I. In our worlds we complain about inflation; such a luxury. Millions other are starving and just hope their child will live another hour.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby drstrangelove » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:06 pm

I'm not talking about capitalists or capitalism. Corporations don't seek profits, they seek growth. If profits interfere with growth they won't seek them.

I'm talking about increasing the amount of goods to soak up the increasing money supply. Corporations are the means of production and those running them do so at profit.

But the notion corporations operate for profit at all costs is sometimes misleading. They no longer pay dividends to their owners in most cases. Many of the biggest aren't actually profitable beyond their stock price. This is a different part of a holistic system though.

Growth of money supply requires growth of goods. Rate of growth of money supply has led to a need to grow quantity of goods produced at the cost of their quality.

This is alll very abstract stuff. I get tired of discussing it because it's easy to pick holes in almost any economic theory.

Anyway, when the market eventually crashes, I'll know whether to re-evaluate my views.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:50 pm

Thank you for your reply, drstrangelove. Meaning no disrespect, I cannot understand your logic here:

"I'm not talking about capitalists or capitalism. Corporations don't seek profits, they seek growth. If profits interfere with growth they won't seek them."

I cannot understand how anyone could separate corporations from the capitalistic system they operate within. Even not for profit corporations operate within our capitalist system. Profit drives growth and provides capital necessary for expansion. I believe it would be more correct to say if there is no profit made, there can be no growth of the corporation.

Not that it matters much at all, this is simply untrue: "Growth of money supply requires growth of goods." I also strongly disagree that "Rate of growth of money supply has led to a need to grow quantity of goods produced at the cost of their quality." The rate of growth of the money supply has nothing at all to do with the diminished quality of goods being produced. Maximizing profit is why the quality of consumer products have been diminished.

If the market crashes we all will be reevaluating our condition.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby drstrangelove » Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:57 am

So the problem with economics theory is everyone is taught different concepts, jargon, or semantically different definitions. I get tired with it it because you almost have to qualify every word you use and instead give a precise meaning.

So by profits, I mean money generated that is taken out of the corporation and not reinvested. Money that could have been capital reinvested for growth, but instead is taken out in a number of forms:
- dividends to ownership
- salaries to management, though this isn't clear cut, as investing in attracting talent through higher salaries would be a reinvestment, but executive bonuses would not be in certain circumstances.

So you aren't really wrong, it's just I'm talking about a specific type of profit, making a distinction between surplus capital, which you rightly view as profit, and profit, which is surplus capital that isn't reinvested.

So when I say corporations aren't profit seeking, what I mean is they seek to reinvest almost all their 'profits' internally where they can be used to generate more profits, the process for which is growth seeking, not profit seeking. Profits are generated to be reinvested for growth.

This is why you will hear about new tech companies remaining 'unprofitable' for years after they clearly generate mass amounts of money. That money is invested in growth, not taken by inderviduals for personal profit, for the most part.

Bezo and gates didn't generate their wealth because of online shipping or computers. They did so through stock. And the stock was only worth what it was because of growth, not profit.

Corporations are part of the economic system but that system isn't capitalist. It's a hybrid privately planned economy of oligopolies that control supply and demand, the state helping to sure up demand in certain areas like the military budget and more recently pharmaceuticals with vaccine mandates.

Corporations are also 'publicly' owned. Legally speaking, they are owned by workers, through pension funds, well the bug ones anyway. This is done through pension funds.

If you take Marx at his word, the modern corporation is a communist entity. Marx said the means of production should be owned by the workers. It is. Of course ownership had nothing to do with control. Which is handled by custodian banks in another complex system I won't get into.

But to answer your question, or disagreement with my statement, so to clarify:

The modern public corporation does not generate profit, because it does not not pay dividends to its ownership in most cases. This means the profits generated for ownership are purely speculative since they have to sell stock to generate them. This speculative profit is based on growth, not on the surplus capital reinvested to grow.

This is why the 'worlds richest people list' fluctuates so much. They generate their profit based on speculation, that is easily wiped out if the corporation shows signs of stagnation.

Everything relies on this growth, particularly the money supply, which if expanding needs more and more products to soak up the demand for goods being generated to avoid rapid price inflation. They even set the inflation rate and growth rate to be pretty much the same.

So growth is what generates speculative profits, prices are what generate surplus capital to be reinvested for growth, but of course it's fair to call this profit also. The confusion comes only when trying to distinguish between these two types of profit. Which I don't do because I end up having to write all this. So it is my fault.

Beyond this, we both agree quality is destroyed for quantity. Beyond that, I have a very fridge view that this is done to the extent it has been to cover for what is being done on the money supply side of things, which is a completely different topic, but one in which I believe the upward transfer of wealth takes place. That this transfer of wealth is allowed to happen so long as society remains stable. That society remains stable only if peoples standards of living are met. These standards have been defined in product consumption, or consumerism. Consumers standards of living decline without them noticing through destroying quality for quantity. This keeps society stable, and allows the transfer of wealth to continue.

Of course, this can't go on for very long, and it hasn't. It wasn't happening in the 1950s. Maybe began in the 1960s, but wasn't undeniably present until the 80s. So less than 70 years.

And when it does end, they'll need something to blame or at least bamboozle people with. So nowish would be the perfect time.

And it's not a question of if the market will crash, but a question of when.

I'm on mobile so I'm just going to hit submit and trust my thumbs and auto complete.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby BenDhyan » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:00 am

Wombaticus Rex » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:01 am wrote:"How is your market crash watch party going?"

>THEY'RE MAKING A FUCKING COOKBOOK

"That's nice, dear"

:rofl:


I don't know about the relevance of a cookbook in the context of an anticipated market crash, but I suspect there is a lot of cooking the books that is.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby PufPuf93 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:07 am

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:01 pm wrote:"How is your market crash watch party going?"

>THEY'RE MAKING A FUCKING COOKBOOK

"That's nice, dear"


Maybe a new thread then?

Piqued my interest.

We can talk about food and ways to cope and have some quality life in our immediate environs as society melts down; topics of practicality we can all get behind and perhaps reduce some of the current polarization at RI.
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Re: Market Crash Watch Party

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:42 am

PufPuf93 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:07 am wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:01 pm wrote:"How is your market crash watch party going?"

>THEY'RE MAKING A FUCKING COOKBOOK

"That's nice, dear"


Maybe a new thread then?

Piqued my interest.

We can talk about food and ways to cope and have some quality life in our immediate environs as society melts down; topics of practicality we can all get behind and perhaps reduce some of the current polarization at RI.


Yes. Let's do it. New thread. A topic that will become incrementally more important. But regardless of import i wanna hear more about Harvey's (and ideas/tips from others) hot takes on cooking with minimal/no 'budget', using (at least in part) locally foraged ingredients.

WRex's quip had me chuckle audibly to myself -- a rare event these days. He also has some intel/first-hand exposure on this 'food' topic (but don't want to 'out' him), given some of his book recommendations and anecdotes on outdoor living (invariably involving the working class staple, Budweiser, which by itself is a funny accent. Am I sounding like a stalker? Nah, just someone that pays attention to worthwhile tips).


Edit to add: very much appreciating drstrangelove's takes as well, and comments from others (Iam, etc) inspiring the replies.

Re: OP, the timing remains TBD -- and I for one would place my money (ha) on an incremental descent rather than sudden 'crash' given the manner in which the sausage is made these days -- but we shall see.
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