On "Trans Kids" and related topics..

[stickdog99]

Stickdog wrote:

Yeah, I'm a disgustingly evil right winger because I don't want to encourage little kids to become sterile lifelong mark$ for Big Pharma if they can possibly find a way to come to terms with the reproductive systems that they were born with.

Pretty sure I already commented on this, something along the lines of "give them the best care and counseling possible to ensure they're absolutely sure, or as close to as possible, that this is what they really want". And of course put an age limit on their ability to do anything irreversible (16 sounds reasonable to me). No one should have any kind of surgery until they're old enough to make an informed decision, and (ideally), by that time they've had enough time and support to be sure about it. Is it going to be perfect? Hell no. It's people, and people are stupid, easily influenced and change their minds, but that applies to everything. I simply don't care - it's their decision to make, and it has fuck-all to do with me, so live and let live. Some of them are going to end up regretting it. Shit happens.

And that's all you have to offer to this entire discussion: demonization of anyone who dares to disagree one iota with your new "progressive" quasi-religious talking points. Right?

Demonization, as opposed to neoliberal programming? It was a bullshit reply to your bullshit reply.

This is not a new belief for me, not even remotely, it's only recently it's become such a big issue that I felt the need to comment on it.

OK, you can believe what you wish. I think irreversible surgeries should wait until 18 at least. And I think pre-counseling at minimum needs to come from individuals who are not enriched more by those who transition than by those who do not. And I would rather that this counseling and the research comes from the people in the article above whom trans-activists are actively trying to censor.

Yeah, it's none of my business. But it is a personal health destroying business, potentially worse than antidepressants, cigarettes or asbestos, and that's why it needs to be carefully regulated.

Zucker—like many others—wants to help youth avoid the psychosocial upheaval associated with gender transition and a lifetime of potentially unnecessary medical treatment. His position was almost universal until the past few years

That's all I am saying and all I have ever been saying about the trans issue (other than cis-women still need to be allowed their own safe spaces if they so desire).

I have every sympathy for trans-individuals. And any who are adults should be able to do whatever they want without getting discriminated against assuming that they have been made fully aware of all of the medical risks that they face. You know, the sort of informed consent that was not provided to any of my university students who were just forced to be experimentally injected over and over and over at little to no benefit to them or anyone else at the behest of Big Pharma.

For $ome rea$on, I find it hard it $omewhat harder than you do to tru$t the pure intention$ of medical e$tabli$hment when it come$ to creating lifelong medical $y$tem dependent$ right now. YMMV, but that doesn't make me an evil right-winger.

[Grizzly]

What's that saying? A picture tells a thousand stories...

https://bioedge.org/gender/transgender/uk-to-block-trans-puberty-blockers/

[drstrangelove]

there needs to be a universal fallacy to describe when both sides of an argument are engaged in a strawman. drevil seems to be concerned with the carry over of discussion into the broader movement of trans-rights, more concerned with adults. myself and others concerned with pharmaceutical or surgical intervention in the natural development of children's bodies, and of a function of responding to drevil have been drawn into the broader issue of transgender rights.

after thinking about it, i would fault the title of this thread "On Trans Kids and related topics". if it just said "On trans kid" it would be easy to state drevil is in fact off topic but they aren't. they are concerned with a related topic and this has led to current state of this thread. "the trans movement shouldn't push their agenda on kids" vs "don't demonize the trans movement as a whole because they aren't doing that and it's a right wing agenda to make it seem this way".

seems to me the trans movement is pushing their agenda on kids and the right wing movement are taking advantage of this to demon LGBT community as a whole. where as i would only demonize the T of LGBT, and only the part of the T trying to affix a P to itself. which i do think is a right wing false flag conspiracy that many in the LGBT community aren't aware of and unfortunately many in the T community have fallen for. i think this because i know it's been the agenda of pedophile groups, from at least the 1970s, who are often times closely linked to fascist political agendas, to infiltrate gay groups so they can claim they are being persecuted as gays by blurring the line between under teenagers(10-13 generally) and legal age teenagers(16-18 generally). the gay community are reluctant to engage on the issue because at the time violent pedophile crimes WERE described as homosexual in newspapers. Dean Corll and John Wayne Gacy serial killings were described as homosexual killings even though the victims were mostly high school aged boys.

very difficult to discuss the nuance of this so i opt out. no hard feelings drevil, don't wish to carry over the combative nature of our discussion here into other topics.

[stickdog99]

People should be able to discuss legitimate concerns without being demonized as evil bigots.

[Grizzly]

[/url]

Besides, there are billionaires PUSHING TO dissolve the Nation. And using this to polarize the people.

[/url]

[Grizzly]

Children and the lost age of innocence; sexualizing the young; too many crimes to count
https://jonrappoport.substack.com/p/children-and-the-lost-age-of-innocence

[Grizzly]

without comment:

[JackRiddler]

Where is your daily post condemning the child beauty pageant industry?

Against child abuse in the major religious institutions?

What is the ratio of child abuse incidents involving a church or a conservative reformatory institution or cops (we'll leave "within families of all kinds" out of this) compared to such incidents remotely related to a drag queen story hour? How many millions or hundreds of thousands to 1, if there's a 1?

Where is the current "movement" receiving media on this issue that doesn't exclusively find its targeted "perpetrators" (some real, mostly not) among "liberals," and that isn't currently an adjunct of drumming up a base for the GOP?

You few are easily played, or are playing.

.

[Harvey]

Where is your daily post condemning the child beauty pageant industry?

Indeed. And as you imply, women ought to be compelled to share their locker room with mens dicks. You said nothing contrary, therefore I can arbitrarily supply what I imagine your position to be. Hooray!

[stickdog99]

"The sexualization, mutilation, and sterilization of children is good because religion and Republicans are bad."

[Harvey]

there needs to be a universal fallacy to describe when both sides of an argument are engaged in a strawman.

It almost certainly exists. If it doesn't, it certainly should.

Not quite what you mean but something close to it. Kayfabe: A fake contest which everyone involved understands is not a real contest in almost every respect, nevertheless, a very dangerous ballet which people ritually agree to pretend is real and behave as though it is, never stepping out of character or leaving the script. And sometimes it kills them.

This is a simplification of our cultural model admittedly, but is more or less - what it really is. We'll pretend it's real - all the way to World War 3.

.

http://edge.org/responses/what-scientif ... ve-toolkit

Kayfabe

Eric R. Weinstein

Mathematician and Economist; Principal, Natron Group...

The sophisticated "scientific concept" with the greatest potential to enhance human understanding may be argued to come not from the halls of academe, but rather from the unlikely research environment of professional wrestling.

Evolutionary biologists Richard Alexander and Robert Trivers have recently emphasized that it is deception rather than information that often plays the decisive role in systems of selective pressures. Yet most of our thinking continues to treat deception as something of a perturbation on the exchange of pure information, leaving us unprepared to contemplate a world in which fakery may reliably crowd out the genuine. In particular, humanity's future selective pressures appear likely to remain tied to economic theory which currently uses as its central construct a market model based on assumptions of perfect information.

If we are to take selection more seriously within humans, we may fairly ask what rigorous system would be capable of tying together an altered reality of layered falsehoods in which absolutely nothing can be assumed to be as it appears. Such a system, in continuous development for more than a century, is known to exist and now supports an intricate multi-billion dollar business empire of pure hokum. It is known to wrestling's insiders as "Kayfabe".

Because professional wrestling is a simulated sport, all competitors who face each other in the ring are actually close collaborators who must form a closed system (called "a promotion") sealed against outsiders. With external competitors generally excluded, antagonists are chosen from within the promotion and their ritualized battles are largely negotiated, choreographed, and rehearsed at a significantly decreased risk of injury or death. With outcomes predetermined under Kayfabe, betrayal in wrestling comes not from engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct, but by the surprise appearance of actual sporting behavior. Such unwelcome sportsmanship which "breaks Kayfabe" is called "shooting" to distinguish it from the expected scripted deception called "working".

Were Kayfabe to become part of our toolkit for the twenty-first century, we would undoubtedly have an easier time understanding a world in which investigative journalism seems to have vanished and bitter corporate rivals cooperate on everything from joint ventures to lobbying efforts. Perhaps confusing battles between "freshwater" Chicago macro economists and Ivy league "Saltwater" theorists could be best understood as happening within a single "orthodox promotion" given that both groups suffered no injury from failing (equally) to predict the recent financial crisis. The decades old battle in theoretical physics over bragging rights between the "string" and "loop" camps would seem to be an even more significant example within the hard sciences of a collaborative intra-promotion rivalry given the apparent failure of both groups to produce a quantum theory of gravity.

What makes Kayfabe remarkable is that it gives us potentially the most complete example of the general process by which a wide class of important endeavors transition from failed reality to successful fakery. While most modern sports enthusiasts are aware of wrestling's status as a pseudo sport, what few alive today remember is that it evolved out of a failed real sport (known as "catch" wrestling) which held its last honest title match early in the 20th century. Typical matches could last hours with no satisfying action, or end suddenly with crippling injuries to a promising athlete in whom much had been invested. This highlighted the close relationship between two paradoxical risks which define the category of activity which wrestling shares with other human spheres:

• A) Occasional but Extreme Peril for the participants.

• B) General: Monotony for both audience and participants.

Kayfabrication (the process of transition from reality towards Kayfabe) arises out of attempts to deliver a dependably engaging product for a mass audience while removing the unpredictable upheavals that imperil participants. As such Kayfabrication is a dependable feature of many of our most important systems which share the above two characteristics such as war, finance, love, politics and science.

Importantly, Kayfabe also seems to have discovered the limits of how much disbelief the human mind is capable of successfully suspending before fantasy and reality become fully conflated. Wrestling's system of lies has recently become so intricate that wrestlers have occasionally found themselves engaging in real life adultery following exactly behind the introduction of a fictitious adulterous plot twist in a Kayfabe back-story. Eventually, even Kayfabe itself became a victim of its own success as it grew to a level of deceit that could not be maintained when the wrestling world collided with outside regulators exercising oversight over major sporting events.

At the point Kayfabe was forced to own up to the fact that professional wrestling contained no sport whatsoever, it did more than avoid being regulated and taxed into oblivion. Wrestling discovered the unthinkable: its audience did not seem to require even a thin veneer of realism. Professional wrestling had come full circle to its honest origins by at last moving the responsibility for deception off of the shoulders of the performers and into the willing minds of the audience.

Kayfabe, it appears, is a dish best served client-side.

[Grizzly]

https://archive.fo/Z3GVv
The Billionaire Family Pushing Synthetic Sex Identities (SSI)
The wealthy, powerful, and sometimes very weird Pritzker cousins have set their sights on a new God-like goal: using gender ideology to remake human biology

[Harvey]

There's been no refutation of this so far. I think it is accurate. Have RI'ers been shouted down? Or is it a genuinely complex and difficult topic? Please, do speak freely.

All those who feel they can't cope with this torrent of apparently 'Right Wing' curiosity and the absence of any censorship, nay, this invitation to think and to argue and to discuss, may they perhaps recognise that democracy requires some discomfort and some curiosity in order to exist at all.

Can anyone refute or improve this formulation:

"The sexualization, mutilation, and sterilization of children is good because religion and Republicans are bad."

[DrEvil]

Republicans are bad, and the mutilation and sterilization part isn't true? Sexualization of children has always been there, from people of all orientations, and it's a distraction. How is simply having a gender sexualizing someone? And if a fourteen year old said they were gay, would that be an issue? Would we be sexualizing them if we supported their coming out?

Also, the sterilization part is hilariously fucking stupid. Really? Do you get equally worked up when a straight man decides to have their tubes snipped? Is it everyone's duty to have as many children as possible? Is it impossible to freeze sperm and eggs? To adopt?

The current hysteria around trans issues is fueled by the republican party as a culture war issue, the kind of divisive distractions that around here usually gets dismissed as kayfabe cover for the actual nefarious stuff the ruling class is up to, except in this case it's apparently very important that we be very upset about this and think about the children.

[Wombaticus Rex]

The current hysteria around trans issues is fueled by the republican party as a culture war issue, the kind of divisive distractions that around here usually gets dismissed as kayfabe cover for the actual nefarious stuff the ruling class is up to, except in this case it's apparently very important that we be very upset about this and think about the children.

I think there's also a disgust thing underneath it. Once people really come to grips with what "gender affirming surgery" is, what it does and how it leaves people, there is a certain ... alarm.

Fueled by culture war, sure, but those operators always target existing fires to dump gas onto. And the exertions of pervert hypocrites in the GOP and DNC are an epiphenomenon, after all: the real issue here is, in fact, minors.

I'm friends with a staunchly NPR liberal older couple who read Jamie Reed's testimony and came away shaken. What I found most interesting is they did not so much assert this to me as confide it, confess it, because they felt like it was heresy. It is very unfortunate how difficult it has become for Americans to process facts outside of partisan politics.

It is also deeply pathetic and highly contemptible.