US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Harvey » Sun May 08, 2022 6:47 am

PufPuf93 » Sun May 08, 2022 5:40 am wrote:
MacCruiskeen » Sat May 07, 2022 1:03 pm wrote:Context is rarely welcome, whatever the topic:

Image
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSDYNIqaIAE ... name=small

Is this true? Are the maps accurate? Do Alaska, Oregon, Colorado, New Mexico, Vermont, New Hampshire and New Jersey really permit abortion-on-demand up to the 40th week of pregnancy?

Advice to expectant mothers from the webpage of New York State Department of Health (emphases in the original):

Remember every week counts!

Near the end of your pregnancy you may be uncomfortable or anxious to see your baby. But remember -- you want to be sure you deliver a full term baby, if possible.

How long is full term?

Pregnancy lasts for about 280 days or 40 weeks.

A preterm or premature baby is delivered before 37 weeks of your pregnancy.

Extremely preterm infants are born 23 through 28 weeks.
Moderately preterm infants are born between 29 and 33 weeks.
Late preterm infants are born between 34 and 37 weeks.

https://www.health.ny.gov/community/pre ... ortant.htm


Late term abortions are not because a woman decides she does not want a baby but when there is something wrong with the baby that puts both the mother and potential infant at risk where the fetus is likely to die before, at, after a live birth or have severe birth defects.


On that last note, there are some wonderful examples in recent history of people who would probably have been 'aborted' today but who have lived astonishing and fulfilling lives, contributing extraordinarily to their families and culture, sometimes because of their specific situation, as well as despite it. I can't lay my hands on one just now, my mind full of other things, but if I can find them, their stories would make a valuable addition to the wider context of the topic.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun May 08, 2022 1:06 pm

^^^^^
Indeed.

In the meantime, a perspective from a mother that touches not only on abortion but currently hyper-charged political sentiments.

@MadameKempe

What is wrong with today’s left, part 542:

I just had a long time friend end our friendship because I said that while I remained pro-choice, I thought abortion was a complex issue and noted RBG thought Roe was a bad decision.

THAT IS IT. That is all I said. End of friendship.

...

I shared the same views with my pro-life friends and their response was: “Interesting!”

When did the left become so polarized, so intolerant and so moralistic?

They’re like a fundamentalist religious group that sees any questioning of the “holy word” as the devil’s work.

And the weird thing is: none of these feminists can see this. They see themselves as the most rational, kind, compassionate and intelligent people on the planet — even as they refuse to engage with any nuance on an issue and ruthlessly shun people in their community who disagree!


https://twitter.com/MadameKempe/status/ ... bJ5-z3pzgA
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun May 08, 2022 2:47 pm

And:
@MadameKempe

May 5

Pro-life people — I apologize for not seeing how profoundly frustrating it must have been for you to have absolutely no say in abortion bc Roe v. Wade made any restrictions legally impossible.

I apologize for not seeing how profoundly undemocratic and authoritarian that was.

I am still pro-choice but I think we need a reasonable compromise. Let abortion be legal to 15 weeks and then only allowed in exceptional cases after that.

I am still pro-choice but I admit that pro-life views have merit.

During Covid, I was shocked that feminists supported the most restrictive, undemocratic and repressive measures. This was totally against my values!

Now I see that this anti-democratic, authoritarian streak is innate to middle-class feminism. I just didn’t see it before.

They refuse to recognize that the US is an outlier in the West in terms of having no abortion restrictions whatsoever and that other countries — including the Nordic countries that feminists tend to admire for their pro-woman policies — limit legal abortions to 15 to 18 weeks.

They cannot admit that it is not 1973 any more and that advances in medical technology have changed the playing field considerably in the matter of abortion.

They cannot admit that the people on the other side have any justification or merit to their views whatsoever.

They tell stories replete with other issues (poverty, ignorance, marginalization, sexual abuse) and act as if the person’s lack of access to abortion was the central problem — as if all these women’s problems would be solved by abortion.

They support an authoritarian model in which unelected justices rather than elected representatives dictate to the population.

They refuse to see any merit in the other side and demonize anyone who dares question access on demand as wanting to usher in the Handmaid’s Tale.

I used to think extremism only existed in the pro-life camp. Now I see that pro-choice is also extreme.

They want abortion on demand even past 15wks — absolutely no restrictions.

They don’t think women should be held accountable even one iota for their ability to create life.

And… we’re back to the Handmaid’s Tale references, as if only one party presents an existential threat to women.

Did we miss the part where irrational school closures sent millions of women out of the workforce leading to unprecedented setbacks in gender equality?

Where teen girls were encouraged to remove their breasts and take hormones with no consideration as to whether their dismay at a sexist society was playing a role in their desire to become men?

Where an entire category of human experience was erased and replaced with dehumanizing terms like “chest feeder” “menstruator” and “birthing person”?

https://twitter.com/MadameKempe/status/ ... WxGpErc0_g


As I typed on page 1:
Belligerent Savant » Wed May 04, 2022 9:53 am wrote:.
Unfortunately most threads these days will have a form of derailment as no topic exists in a vaccuum, especially not in the last ~2yrs. There are few, if any, silos, and increasingly, information mgmt/sentiment manipulation is becoming increasingly brazen, overt, and pervasive.
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon May 09, 2022 5:53 pm

PufPuf93 » Sat May 07, 2022 11:40 pm wrote:
MacCruiskeen » Sat May 07, 2022 1:03 pm wrote:Context is rarely welcome, whatever the topic:

Image
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSDYNIqaIAE ... name=small

Is this true? Are the maps accurate? Do Alaska, Oregon, Colorado, New Mexico, Vermont, New Hampshire and New Jersey really permit abortion-on-demand up to the 40th week of pregnancy?

Advice to expectant mothers from the webpage of New York State Department of Health (emphases in the original):

Remember every week counts!

Near the end of your pregnancy you may be uncomfortable or anxious to see your baby. But remember -- you want to be sure you deliver a full term baby, if possible.

How long is full term?

Pregnancy lasts for about 280 days or 40 weeks.

A preterm or premature baby is delivered before 37 weeks of your pregnancy.

Extremely preterm infants are born 23 through 28 weeks.
Moderately preterm infants are born between 29 and 33 weeks.
Late preterm infants are born between 34 and 37 weeks.

https://www.health.ny.gov/community/pre ... ortant.htm


Late term abortions are not because a woman decides she does not want a baby but when there is something wrong with the baby that puts both the mother and potential infant at risk where the fetus is likely to die before, at, after a live birth or have severe birth defects.


PufPuf, look again at those maps I posted, and read the short texts that accompany them.

Reminder: 30 weeks = approximately seven-and-a-half months.

The US states that allow abortion on demand even beyond 30 weeks and right up to 40 (i.e. to full-term, entirely without restriction, as far as I can see) have a total combined population of over 40 million people. Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... m-abortion.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Mon May 09, 2022 7:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon May 09, 2022 6:21 pm

Happy Devouring Mother's Day

https://bridgie.substack.com/p/happy-de ... rs-day?s=r

https://twitter.com/bridgietherease/sta ... 7391296514

Oedipa Maas 19 hr ago

With the leak of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito’s draft opinion potentially overturning Roe v. Wade, made public just in time for Mother’s Day, complexes about the feminine are on lurid display all over social media. Many others are doing a fine job covering the material effects of abortion policy, but what are its broad psychological effects, particularly on the archetypal patterns people use to make sense of the world?

I’m going to use some of Carl Jung’s terminology and ideas, but I always hesitate to call anything “Jungian” — he just provides some of the most useful vocabulary and framing around this psychological patterning. One thing I especially value about his approach is a relative neutrality toward these living images, and when I speak of dark feminine archetypes, I don’t exactly intend this in a judgmental sense. People consider them dark for a reason, but every archetype has a shadow aspect and both must be taken together in order to see things as they are in reality, without repressing these aspects into the unconscious where they can run roughshod without supervision and dangerously affect our unconscious behaviors and attitudes.

One of his most useful and enduring concepts is the anima, a man’s unconscious feminine aspect; in women, the corresponding archetype is the unconscious masculine animus. The way he relates to this aspect will pattern his relations not just with women, but with his very ability to experience his own feelings, intuitions, and spirituality. Among other things, it is heavily influenced by the images formed in childhood by his female relatives, most particularly his mother.

What psychological effect does it have on a woman’s children when they are confronted with the idea of abortion when they are young and still forming these images? It brings children into contact with a dark feminine archetype which was previously only explored at that age through fairy tales about evil witches and stepmothers. Young girls’ identification with the mother creates a different effect than for young boys; girls identify with the mother and understand that this is their future. If their mother centers this practice in her political and even emotional life, then it must be of vital importance to them, too. But for young boys, the effect is much broader and impacts their entire idea of the feminine, not just their ideas of motherhood.

Image
https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/15234893 ... ame=medium

Jung sketched out four rough stages of anima development in men, referred to as Eve, Helen, Mary, and Sophia. In the Eve stage, a man relates to women solely as an object of desire. For a child, that desire is for love, nourishment, and protection from the mother; as they grow older, the desire shifts to others and moves into base sexuality and fertilization. In the Helen stage, as in Helen of Troy, a man relates to women as capable agents who may lack virtue, but demonstrate worldliness, skill, and cunning. In the Mary stage, women become spiritualized — not just mothers as in the Eve stage, but sacred in this role, capable of attaining virtue and righteousness. Finally, in the Sophia stage, a man is able to see women as having wisdom, being equal and fully human, possessing both positive and negative qualities just as he does, not as any kind of object. There are four equivalent stages of animus development in women as well, moving similarly from base physicality to worldliness to spirituality to wholeness and wisdom.

These stages are not exactly intended to reflect a man’s opinion about women as they exist in the world, though they probably do; rather, they color his perception of every woman he meets as he projects this image onto her. If he is unconscious of this, he responds not so much to her personally, but to her degree of congruence with that figure. A man whose anima image is closer to Eve will simply not notice traits of women that fall outside of his anima image, and he will largely relate to them within those confines. These archetypes don’t only influence his relation to women, but also to his feeling and intuition, personality functions which are associated with femininity. Both are necessary functions for a whole person, just as thinking and sensing are for a woman, but a man who associates them with a lower or darker anima image may not be able to access them productively in his own life or may even be at odds with them in a way that harms him and cuts him off from vital aspects of himself.

However, these named stages may be slightly misleading in that they are largely positive. As Jung’s colleague Marie Louise von Franz put it, “every personification of the unconscious — the shadow, the anima, the animus, and the Self — has both a light and a dark aspect.... They can bring life-giving development and creativeness to the personality, or they can cause petrification and physical death.” A young child who hears his mother passionately speaking in defense of her pro-choice abortion rights may be prematurely brought into contact with the dark aspect of the mother, and this can have serious effects on the way he relates to women for the rest of his life.

The dark mother archetype has plenty of representation in fairy tale, mythology, and religion. In Hinduism the goddess Kali is the personification of this image, frequently depicted holding a severed head, deadly weapons, chalices of blood, etc. Just like many other gods and goddesses whose power comes from the mystery of death — psychopomp figures like Óðinn, Anubis, or Hermes — she is not to be taken as a purely evil figure in that religious context, but as a figure that transcends and thus has power over the boundary between life and death. More straightforwardly, this dark feminine often takes form as the “evil witch” in European fairy tales: she lures children into her hut and bakes them in ovens, as in Hansel and Gretel. In Snow White, she is the evil stepmother (though in some early versions she is actually the girl’s biological mother), driven by her jealousy of youth and fear of aging and death to destroy her daughter.

But the simultaneous appearance of that power over death with the mother archetype is much more uncomfortable for most than when it appears in the context of a father. People tend to be more accustomed to men exercising the power to mete out death and think of the feminine solely as producing life. Óðinn*,* after all, is both the Allfather and the chooser of the slain. But of course both of these contain their own opposites: the feminine power to create life gives a woman agency in its use, and the masculine power to cause death grants a creative power to influence what takes the place of what he has killed.

While this might be a palatable or even beneficial understanding of mythological figures who help us to understand the broad forces that shape our world and the unavoidable cycle of birth and death, they are terrifying archetypes for a child to confront in one’s own personal parents, particularly when they are too young to defend and care for themselves. Modern parents increasingly seem to feel that it’s right to confront children with difficult and dark ideas as early as they can comprehend the words, but this often seems to serve more of a narcissistic function for the parents and is done without heed to effects on the child’s long-term psychological development.

A child who is confronted by these dark aspects of the mother figure before he has fully internalized her warm, nurturing aspects may grow up to have lifelong difficulty relating to the feminine, both in other women and in his own personality. A mother who makes it known to her child that her highest political priority is her ability to have the right and ability to end a life in her womb with ease, whether by reading him a “children’s book” as in the tweet pictured above or casually discussing these politics at the dinner table, has in fact conveyed something deadly serious to that child, who presumably knows where he came from if he’s capable of comprehending what she’s saying. It seems particularly pernicious if she couples this idea to her enjoyment of her career, implicitly communicating an ongoing sense of her priorities to a child whose life depends on her.

This is not to say that a mother has to sacrifice her entire being to her children — every parent makes decisions about what to share and what to keep private, and all have mixed feelings about many aspects of parenthood — but rather that this person who is too young to take care of himself depends on you, both physically and psychologically, in a way that inherently entails great responsibility and sacrifice. A mother casually informing her child that being able to have ended their life is of great and central importance to her is perhaps not meeting that psychological responsibility.

The effect on girls may arguably be less drastic due to her identification with the mother — it doesn’t automatically color her every interaction with the opposite sex, though the often comorbid idea that men just want to enslave her through family certainly may — but it will effect her view of pregnancy and having children of her own in a way that will only deepen through modern sex education with its emphasis on how having children when she’s young will ruin her life. I speak from experience when I say that women growing up surrounded by these deeply emotional messages about the danger and undesirability of pregnancy may struggle to shed them even once it has become appropriate to have children, and they may neglect traits that are important in a father when choosing partners. They may see motherhood and its warm, nurturing qualities as less worthy of respect, a death sentence for their intellect and independence, weak and exploitable aspects that must be sacrificed on the altars of sex appeal and success.

But boys growing up with these messages about motherhood may struggle to attain even the first level of anima development, remaining stuck on an unspoken Level Zero with the image of the devouring mother who he unconsciously sees as capable of desiring his murder. His childhood object of desire — the bearer of warmth, nurture, love — might be unconsciously viewed as only conditionally or superficially available to him, and his attachment may be insecure at best. The dark side of the Eve archetype matures into a sexually maladaptive position; the devouring mother is a murderer, the womb of his counterpart is rotten and defiled. He may grow up to see women as untrustworthy and dark, capable of providing simulacra of these desires but never fulfilling them: McDonald’s instead of real nourishment, OnlyFans instead of a wife.

Even worse, women who have grown up with these messages to see warmth and nurturing as “lesser” traits that will hamstring their success and make them less worthy of respect will likely provide very suitable hooks for this anima projection, preventing him from even noticing women who might be capable of providing what he needs and transforming his anima image. Even if he notices them, his bitterness and anger might make him frightening to people who otherwise could have been suitable partners.

Men and women with these hangups will not be capable of having an adult public conversation about the responsibility of giving and taking life, and indeed this is what I see on social media. Ideally this conversation would take the tone of a husband and wife discussing the most difficult edge case with each other to come to a mutual decision that lives up to their morals and their deep love and consideration for one another, not shying away from the dark aspects that inherently come with such important decisions but still trying to do right by each other, their children both born and unborn, and the world. When people project these fully developed opposite sex archetypes onto each other, they will tend to see their interlocutors through this lens and the conversation can be productive. Instead I mostly see men screaming at women they see as whores and babykillers for more love, women screaming at men they see as slavers and tyrants for more love, both of them locked into a dark vision of the other that they can’t help but see but blind to everyone who does not fit the pattern they expect.

https://bridgie.substack.com/p/happy-de ... rs-day?s=r

https://twitter.com/bridgietherease/sta ... 7391296514
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Harvey » Tue May 10, 2022 4:21 am

^ Gladdened to discover she's writing longer form prose than that offered by Twitter. Cheers Mac.

She goes to the heart of the matter. Having the discussion now, in the only terms available to us here and now, may by itself be a form of deep and inaccessible social engineering. Whatever outcome the argument itself may have, the fruits of all this will be harvested many decades from now, long enough for any effect to be forever separated from its cause.

On the subject broached up thread, that of aborting foetus' with potentially severe disabilities, I offer the following only as food for thought. I do not advocate for any course except one: the choice of the free individual in a free society. Since neither of those conditions appear to apply in our moment, I advocate for nothing beyond obtaining the widest possible context.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-you-asked/it-true-you-can-live-without-brain

...The neurologist at the University of Marseille followed the obvious course of action. His 44 year old patient had complained of a weakness in his left leg so he sent him for a brain scan. [ :lol: ] When the doctor saw the magnetic resonance image of the man’s brain, he was stunned. In fact there was not much of a brain to be seen. Most of the skull cavity was taken up by fluid, with a smattering of brain tissue lining the inside of the skull. The man should have been severely resulted, and yet he was not mentally disabled, holding down a job as a civil servant.

....

Back in 1980, an article appeared in Science, one of the world’s top journals, describing the work of John Lorber, a professor of pediatrics at University of Sheffield in England who had conducted a number of studies on individuals who were afflicted with hydrocephalus and came up with some remarkable findings. Lorber had subjected his patients to CAT scans and found that while most of them were mentally impaired, some, even when their brain filled no more than 5% of the cranial cavity led normal lives. In one documented case, a colleague referred a young man to Lorber because of his unusually large head which apparently was not causing him any difficulty. A CAT scan revealed a skull lined with about a millimeter thick layer of brain tissue and filled with cerebrospinal fluid. Of course the brain stem which sits at the bottom of the brain and connects to the spine was normal. Since it controls vital functions such as breathing, swallowing, digestion, eye movement and heartbeat, there can be no life without it. But the rest of the brain is obviously capable of some remarkable feats, with one part able to compensate for deficiencies in another. In the case of the young man who Lorber investigated, the thin layer of brain cells was certainly up to the task of providing the necessary brain power. The student had a high IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in mathematics.


Despite throwing the origin of consciousness itself into urgent question, the above offers a remarkable context to any discussion of abortion for medical reasons pertaining to the health of the foetus, especially if an irreversible action is based on a flawed understanding, for example, any that is formed by an ideology convinced of its own freedom from ideology. Obviously there are numerous reasonable objections to the studies quoted above, and the briefest search will throw up some of them.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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