US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

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US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby RocketMan » Tue May 03, 2022 4:23 am

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/0 ... n-00029473

Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

The Supreme Court has voted to strike down the landmark Roe v. Wade decision, according to an initial draft majority opinion written by Justice Samuel Alito circulated inside the court and obtained by POLITICO.

The draft opinion is a full-throated, unflinching repudiation of the 1973 decision which guaranteed federal constitutional protections of abortion rights and a subsequent 1992 decision – Planned Parenthood v. Casey – that largely maintained the right. “Roe was egregiously wrong from the start,” Alito writes.


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Alito's draft declares that, inter alia, the right to marry a person of a different race, the right to contraception, and the right not to be forcibly sterilized, all lack "any claim to being deeply rooted in history" – which is the same reason he overrules the right to abortion.
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby drstrangelove » Tue May 03, 2022 5:02 am

Tricking people into thinking they have rights. accept the government gives rights, then accept they can take them away. Best just ignore government and do whatever is within your ability to do.

This should jam up the news cycle for a week, like when that black woman broke glass ceiling in Supreme Court. People forget about market crash, stocks pump for a week then dump again. The value in legacy media like fox and cnn is they control hot button issues with downstream pundits, youtube and the like, always following corporate media agenda like naive lapdog. If you don’t cover latest thing you lose juice. Gotta stay relevant. Meanwhile behind the scenes, sharks circle.
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue May 03, 2022 9:52 am

.
The timing of this is not happenstance.

Re-surfacing older examples of court involvement in privacy and bodily autonomy. The irony is that many that will clamor/get the most heated about the right to choose are the same people that happily cheered on the State forcing medical products [experimental or otherwise] on the populace as conditions for employment, commerce, and travel.

Stupid abounds.

Also: perhaps allowing States to decide on this issue isn't a bad thing.
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Luther Blissett » Tue May 03, 2022 1:46 pm

Who do we think leaked it?

This coming on the heels of the news that death rates — even those of 24-34 year olds — are increasing in the U.S. due to opioids, alcoholism, Covid, obesity, suicide feels like just another factor of dying empire. It’s done.

I agree that people are going to continue to resist (a slim minority of actual childbearing people want this) but I disagree that it’s going anywhere, especially as young women will die from it in a very public way compared to pre-Roe. People aren’t going to be ashamed about it in the way that they were. If anything, I think one byproduct will be an return of political assassinations as aggrieved citizens learn of medical procedures carried out by the power elite.

I don’t think it’s really about states’ rights. It will soon be outlawed federally as soon as the milquetoast administration loses control of the legislative branch.
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby liminalOyster » Tue May 03, 2022 2:09 pm

Glenn Greenwald chimes in and has some good insights here, even if the overall argument gets a bit muddy.

The Irrational, Misguided Discourse Surrounding Supreme Court Controversies Such as Roe v. Wade
The Court, like the U.S. Constitution, was designed to be a limit on the excesses of democracy. Roe denied, not upheld, the rights of citizens to decide democratically.


Protesters gather outside the U.S. Supreme Court on May 03, 2022, in Washington, DC, after a leaked initial draft majority opinion obtained by Politico, in which Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito allegedly wrote for the Court's majority that Roe v. Wade should be overturned (Photo by Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images)
Politico on Monday night published what certainly appears to be a genuine draft decision by Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito that would overturn the Court's 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade. Alito's draft ruling would decide the pending case of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which concerns the constitutionality of a 2018 Mississippi law that bans abortions after fifteen weeks of pregnancy except in the case of medical emergency or severe fetal abnormalities. Given existing Supreme Court precedent that abortion can only be restricted after fetal viability, Mississippi's ban on abortions after the 15th week — at a point when the fetus is not yet deemed viable — is constitutionally dubious. To uphold Mississippi's law — as six of the nine Justices reportedly wish to do — the Court must either find that the law is consistent with existing abortion precedent, or acknowledge that it conflicts with existing precedent and then overrule that precedent on the ground that it was wrongly decided.

Alito's draft is written as a majority opinion, suggesting that at least five of the Court's justices — a majority — voted after oral argument in Dobbs to overrule Roe on the ground that it was “egregiously wrong from the start” and “deeply damaging.” In an extremely rare event for the Court, an unknown person with unknown motives leaked the draft opinion to Politico, which justifiably published it. A subsequent leak to CNN on Monday night claimed that the five justices in favor of overruling Roe were Bush 43 appointee Alito, Bush 41 appointee Clarence Thomas, and three Trump appointees (Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett), while Chief Justice Roberts, appointed by Bush 43, is prepared to uphold the constitutionality of Mississippi's abortion law without overruling Roe.

Draft rulings and even justices’ votes sometimes change in the period between the initial vote after oral argument and the issuance of the final decision. Depending on whom you choose to believe, this leak is either the work of a liberal justice or clerk designed to engender political pressure on the justices so that at least one abandons their intention to overrule Roe, or it came from a conservative justice or clerk, designed to make it very difficult for one of the justices in the majority to switch sides. Whatever the leaker's motives, a decision to overrule this 49-year-old precedent, one of the most controversial in the Court's history, would be one of the most significant judicial decisions issued in decades. The reaction to this leak — like the reaction to the initial ruling in Roe back in 1973 — was intense and strident, and will likely only escalate once the ruling is formally issued.

Every time there is a controversy regarding a Supreme Court ruling, the same set of radical fallacies emerges regarding the role of the Court, the Constitution and how the American republic is designed to function. Each time the Court invalidates a democratically elected law on the ground that it violates a constitutional guarantee — as happened in Roe — those who favor the invalidated law proclaim that something “undemocratic” has transpired, that it is a form of “judicial tyranny” for “five unelected judges” to overturn the will of the majority. Conversely, when the Court refuses to invalidate a democratically elected law, those who regard that law as pernicious, as an attack on fundamental rights, accuse the Court of failing to protect vulnerable individuals.

This by-now-reflexive discourse about the Supreme Court ignores its core function. Like the U.S. Constitution itself, the Court is designed to be an anti-majoritarian check against the excesses of majoritarian sentiment. The Founders wanted to establish a democracy that empowered majorities of citizens to choose their leaders, but also feared that majorities would be inclined to coalesce around unjust laws that would deprive basic rights, and thus sought to impose limits on the power of majorities as well.

The Federalist Papers are full of discussions about the dangers of majoritarian excesses. The most famous of those is James Madison's Federalist 10, where he warns of "factions…who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.” One of the primary concerns in designing the new American republic, if not the chief concern, was how to balance the need to establish rule by the majority (democracy) with the equally compelling need to restrain majorities from veering into impassioned, self-interested attacks on the rights of minorities (republican government). As Madison put it: “To secure the public good, and private rights, against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our enquiries are directed.” Indeed, the key difference between a pure democracy and a republic is that the rights of the majority are unrestricted in the former, but are limited in the latter. The point of the Constitution, and ultimately the Supreme Court, was to establish a republic, not a pure democracy, that would place limits on the power of majorities.

Thus, the purpose of the Bill of Rights is fundamentally anti-democratic and anti-majoritarian. It bars majorities from enacting laws that infringe on the fundamental rights of minorities. Thus, in the U.S., it does not matter if 80% or 90% of Americans support a law to restrict free speech, or ban the free exercise of a particular religion, or imprison someone without due process, or subject a particularly despised criminal to cruel and unusual punishment. Such laws can never be validly enacted. The Constitution deprives the majority of the power to engage in such acts regardless of how popular they might be.

And at least since the 1803 ruling in Madison v. Marbury which established the Supreme Court's power of "judicial review” — i.e., to strike down laws supported by majorities and enacted democratically if such laws violate the rights guaranteed by the Constitution — the Supreme Court itself is intended to uphold similarly anti-majoritarian and anti-democratic values.

When the Court strikes down a law that majorities support, it may be a form of judicial tyranny if the invalidated law does not violate any actual rights enshrined in the Constitution. But the mere judicial act of invalidating a law supported by a majority of citizens — though frequently condemned as “undemocratic" — is, in fact, a fulfillment of one of the Court's prime functions in a republic.

Unless one believes that the will of the majority should always prevail — that laws restricting or abolishing free speech, due process and the free exercise of religion should be permitted as long as enough citizens support it — then one must favor the Supreme Court's anti-democratic and anti-majoritarian powers. Rights can be violated by a small handful of tyrants, but they can also be violated by hateful and unhinged majorities. The Founders’ fear of majoritarian tyranny is why the U.S. was created as a republic rather than a pure democracy.

Whether the Court is acting properly or despotically when it strikes down a democratically elected law, or otherwise acts contrary to the will of the majority, depends upon only one question: whether the law in question violates a right guaranteed by the Constitution. A meaningful assessment of the Court's decisions is impossible without reference to that question. Yet each time the Court acts in a controversial case, judgments are applied without any consideration of that core question.

The reaction to Monday night's news that the Court intends to overrule Roe was immediately driven by all of these common fallacies. It was bizarre to watch liberals accuse the Court of acting “undemocratically" as they denounced the ability of "five unelected aristocrats” — in the words of Vox's Ian Millhiser — to decide the question of abortion rights. Who do they think decided Roe in the first place?

Indeed, Millhiser's argument here — unelected Supreme Court Justices have no business mucking around in abortion rights — is supremely ironic given that it was unelected judges who issued Roe back in 1973, in the process striking down numerous democratically elected laws. Worse, this rhetoric perfectly echoes the arguments which opponents of Roe have made for decades: namely, it is the democratic process, not unelected judges, which should determine what, if any, limits will be placed on the legal ability to provide or obtain an abortion. Indeed, Roe was the classic expression of the above-described anti-majoritarian and anti-democratic values: seven unelected men (for those who believe such demographic attributes matter) struck down laws that had been supported by majorities and enacted by many states which heavily restricted or outright banned abortion procedures. The sole purpose of Roe was to deny citizens the right to enact the anti-abortion laws, no matter how much popular support they commanded.

This extreme confusion embedded in heated debates over the Supreme Court was perhaps most vividly illustrated last night by Waleed Shahid, the popular left-wing activist, current spokesman for the left-wing group Justice Democrats, and previously a top aide and advisor to Squad members including Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Shahid — who, needless to say, supports Roe — posted a quote from Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address, in 1861, which Shahid evidently believes supports his view that Roe must be upheld.

But the quote from Lincoln — warning that the Court must not become the primary institution that decides controversial political questions — does not support Roe at all; indeed, Lincoln's argument is the one most often cited in favor of overruling Roe. In fact, Lincoln's argument is the primary one on which Alito relied in the draft opinion to justify overruling Roe: namely, that democracy will be imperiled, and the people will cease to be their own rulers, if the Supreme Court, rather than the legislative branches, ends up deciding hot-button political questions such as abortion about which the Constitution is silent. Here's the version of the Lincoln pro-democracy quote, complete with bolded words, that Shahid posted, apparently in the belief that it somehow supports upholding Roe:


It is just inexplicable to cite this Lincoln quote as a defense of Roe. Just look at what Lincoln said: “if the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court, [then] the people will have ceased to be their own rulers.” That is exactly the argument that has been made by pro-life activists for years against Roe, and it perfectly tracks Alito's primary view as defended in his draft opinion.

Alito's decision, if it becomes the Court's ruling, would not itself ban abortions. It would instead lift the judicial prohibition on the ability of states to enact laws restricting or banning abortions. In other words, it would take this highly controversial question of abortion and remove it from the Court's purview and restore it to federal and state legislatures to decide it. One cannot defend Roe by invoking the values of democracy or majoritarian will. Roe was the classic case of a Supreme Court ruling that denied the right of majorities to decide what laws should govern their lives and their society.

One can defend Roe only by explicitly defending anti-majoritarian and anti-democratic values: namely, that the abortion question should be decided by a panel of unelected judges, not by the people or their elected representatives. The defense of democracy invoked by Lincoln, and championed by Shahid, can be used only to advocate that this abortion debate should be returned to the democratic processes, which is precisely what Alito argued (emphasis added):

Abortion presents a profound moral issue on which Americans hold sharply conflicting views. Some believe fervently that a human person comes into being at conception and that abortion ends an innocent life. Others feel just as strongly that any regulation of abortion invades a woman's right to control her own body and prevents women from achieving full equality. Still others in a third group think that abortion should be allowed under some but not all circumstances, and those within this group hold a variety of views about the particular restrictions that should be imposed.

For the first 185 years after the adoption of the Constitution, each State was permitted to address this issue in accordance with the views of its citizens. Then, in 1973, this Court decided Roe v. Wade….At the time of Roe, 30 States still prohibited abortion at all stages. In the years prior to that decision, about a third of the States had liberalized their laws, but Roe abruptly ended that political process. It imposed the same highly restrictive regime on the entire Nation, and it effectively struck down the abortion laws of every single State. As Justice Byron White aptly put it in his dissent, the decision Court represented the “exercise of raw judicial power,” 410 U. S., at 222….

Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences…..It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected representatives. “The permissibility of abortion, and the limitations, upon it, are to be resolved like most important questions in our democracy: by citizens trying to persuade one another and then voting.” Casey, 505 U.S. at 979 (Scalia, J, concurring in the judgment in part and dissenting in part). That is what tho Constitution and the rule of law demand.

Rhetoric that heralds the values of democracy and warns of the tyranny of “unelected judges” and the like is not a rational or viable way to defend Roe. That abortion rights should be decided democratically rather than by a secret tribunal of "unelected men in robes" is and always has been the anti-Roe argument. The right of the people to decide, rather than judges, is the primary value which Alito repeatedly invokes in defending the overruling of Roe and once again empowering citizens, through their elected representatives, to make these decisions.

The only way Roe can be defended is through an explicit appeal to the virtues of the anti-democratic and anti-majoritarian principles enshrined in the Constitution: namely, that because the Constitution guarantees the right to have an abortion (though a more generalized right of privacy), then majorities are stripped of the power to enact laws restricting it. Few people like to admit that their preferred views depend upon a denial of the rights of the majority to decide, or that their position is steeped in anti-democratic values. But there is and always has been a crucial role for such values in the proper functioning of the United States and especially the protection of minority rights. If you want to rant about the supremacy and sanctity of democracy and the evils of "unelected judges,” then you will necessarily end up on the side of Justice Alito and the other four justices who appear ready to overrule Roe.

Anti-Roe judges are the ones who believe that abortion rights should be determined through majority will and the democratic process. Roe itself was the ultimate denial, the negation, of unrestrained democracy and majoritarian will. As in all cases, whether Roe's anti-democratic ruling was an affirmation of fundamental rights or a form of judicial tyranny depends solely on whether one believes that the Constitution bars the enactment of laws which restrict abortion or whether it is silent on that question. But as distasteful as it might be to some, the only way to defend Roe is to acknowledge that your view is that the will of the majority is irrelevant to this conflict, that elected representatives have no power to decide these questions, and that all debates about abortion must be entrusted solely to unelected judges to authoritatively decide them without regard to what majorities believe or want.

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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Harvey » Tue May 03, 2022 3:32 pm

Is it likely or even possible to be able ascertain what the majority view actually is?

Who will do so? With what questions? How can honesty be guaranteed in any such process?

And how exactly does the formation of so called majority opinion take place?

After sovereigns or the church, academy, industry or media, in an era where $600 billion a year can be spent on PR globally (manufacturing reality) what objective value can be attached to any majority opinion that could ever be demonstrated?

Isn't the 'majority view' simply whatever the loudest voice says it is at any given point in history? Isn't the 'popular view' simply the view of the most powerful, even if the majority of people disagree or believe something different, can their view ever be known, even if they could arrive at an ideal, objectively informed state?

Consider our current situation.
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Going to kick SLAD's War on Women Thread...

Postby JackRiddler » Tue May 03, 2022 7:33 pm

Sorry fellows, these takes are very obtuse.

Overturning Roe v. Wade has been the leading crusade of organized American cultural "conservatives" and Christianists for 50 years. It's on their standard. They have built their movements and a voting base around it, more than any other single issue. It's very far from the only thing, but in its effect it's been the single biggest item for them. Those of you who grew up in this country can't seriously tell me you didn't notice.

This is also not some random thing that hidden PTB have trotted out as the latest distraction from whatever you think is more worthy of attention. There is nothing remarkable about the timing. (That RI perennial: nothing can happen except that it's immediately identified as a planned distraction from some other thing.) The three nominations put through under Trump made it possible, and it has been expected ever since Barrett's confirmation.

No, the government doesn't "give us" rights. It can recognize and protect them, or, as in this case, trash them and violate them. It's hard to think of anything more directly attacking bodily autonomy than this, and I'd expect this board's hardcore anti-Covidians to side accordingly, not subject this story to the usual binary sorting of everything. If it's wrong to force shots on people or they will be fired and shunned, then it's even wronger to force women to carry to term like cattle and care for the resulting offspring for a lifetime or face prosecution and long prison sentences for inpropitious miscarriages and suspicious trips out of state.

As for the leak, sure that's unusual. If anything's a planned distraction, perhaps that. We'd have been hearing about this in the next couple of weeks regardless, when the decision was handed down. This is an epochal moment, a long-desired triumph for the right and a blockbuster in the war on rights and the war on women.

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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby liminalOyster » Tue May 03, 2022 10:20 pm

Thank you, Jack.

Edit: I would add that while the leak is highly unusual, that should also be seen in proportion to the significance of the event. It's quite easy to imagine, for me at least, that anyone who had access to the document but was opposed to it would have dared to whistleblow it as perhaps the most culturally significant ruling since Brown vs Board of Ed.
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Re: Going to kick SLAD's War on Women Thread...

Postby drstrangelove » Wed May 04, 2022 1:53 am

JackRiddler » Tue May 03, 2022 7:33 pm wrote:Sorry fellows, these takes are very obtuse.

Overturning Roe v. Wade has been the leading crusade of organized American cultural "conservatives" and Christianists for 50 years. It's on their standard. They have built their movements and a voting base around it, more than any other single issue. It's very far from the only thing, but in its effect it's been the single biggest item for them. Those of you who grew up in this country can't seriously tell me you didn't notice.

This is also not some random thing that hidden PTB have trotted out as the latest distraction from whatever you think is more worthy of attention. There is nothing remarkable about the timing. (That RI perennial: nothing can happen except that it's immediately identified as a planned distraction from some other thing.) The three nominations put through under Trump made it possible, and it has been expected ever since Barrett's confirmation.

No, the government doesn't "give us" rights. It can recognize and protect them, or, as in this case, trash them and violate them. It's hard to think of anything more directly attacking bodily autonomy than this, and I'd expect this board's hardcore anti-Covidians to side accordingly, not subject this story to the usual binary sorting of everything. If it's wrong to force shots on people or they will be fired and shunned, then it's even wronger to force women to carry to term like cattle and care for the resulting offspring for a lifetime or face prosecution and long prison sentences for inpropitious miscarriages and suspicious trips out of state.

As for the leak, sure that's unusual. If anything's a planned distraction, perhaps that. We'd have been hearing about this in the next couple of weeks regardless, when the decision was handed down. This is an epochal moment, a long-desired triumph for the right and a blockbuster in the war on rights and the war on women.

.

It could only be a distraction if it was worthy of attention. And a leak, or the release of information in any manner, is always remarkable in its timing. Which is why politico reported it on Monday evening as opposed to say, Friday evening. The draft originates from Feb 10, so whoever leaked it was sitting on it or politico was sitting on it, or the leaker had only just come across it. Most obvious motivation would be the mid-terms, but those aren't for 6 months. Could've been waiting for the news cycle to get bored of the war and make room for something else. Could've been any number of things, but the timing is remarkable.

Government can't protect rights, because rights don't exist. If they did, then the government wouldn't currently be in the process of removing them. There is only liberty and law. Law restricts liberty, ideally with 'good' justification, that is justice. Liberty extends all the way to rape and murder, which the vast majority agree are not liberties people should take, and so accept the justification of their restriction. All else follows from this.

Liberty is a blacklist of freedoms, where you have the absolute freedom to do whatever is in your ability to, but your ability to do things is then restricted through a process of justification using reason and logic. This is an accurate reflection of reality.

"Human rights" on the other hand is a whitelist of freedoms, where you have none except those the government explicitly grants you, and which people have been fooled into thinking is the government 'protecting them', hilariously. . .from itself. If you accept this, that the government grants you your ability to do things as opposed to it being the free will you are in control of, then the government doesn't really need to justify its actions. The justification becomes "you don't have the right to X" and you must then justify your actions, as opposed to the government justifying its own. This is not an accurate reflection of reality, as one has the liberty to rape and murder regardless of whether or not they have the right to.

Thus liberty exists, rights do not.

I suppose you could argue that the Supreme court isn't the government, or is the bad government, or is not the same government, but the evil government that takes away the rights from the good government which grants them. But as you pointed out, both sides of government are in the business of removing bodily autonomy, the only difference is ideology.

The "my body, my choice" slogan is one of my favorites because it is not ideological, but an outlook, or philosophical view, that a line between individual autonomy and collective responsibility to 'the greater good', be it in regards to vaccination or abortion, is drawn at bodily autonomy.

But the disparaging and dismissive slant you picked up on is ahh, definitely present in the comments here, mine included. I'm not dismissive of the issue itself, which is bodily autonomy, only the people at the forefront of its advocacy in the specific flavor of abortion. Abortion is a liberty that I rarely think the government can ever be justified intervening in, if ever. But I assume the leaders of the pro-abortion movement would outright reject being associated under a common umbrella of bodily autonomy next to the anti-mandate crowd.

In my perfect world, those who supported bodily autonomy as a philosophical principle would have it, while those who didn't wouldn't. So I suppose I support abortion 'rights' for women who believe in bodily autonomy. But not those who don't. In this way everyone's beliefs can be respected.
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby drstrangelove » Wed May 04, 2022 4:28 am

Promise not to derail this topic any further, but taken directly from the ACLU website:

Civil Liberties and Vaccine Mandates: Here’s Our Take
Far from compromising civil liberties, vaccine mandates actually further them.[/u] They protect the most vulnerable among us, including people with disabilities and fragile immune systems, children too young to be vaccinated, and communities of color hit hard by the disease.

- https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberti ... s-our-take

Now let me flip the ideology switch on that same statement to make it Anti-Abortion Rights:

Civil Liberties and Anti-Abortion Laws: Here’s Our Take
Far from compromising civil liberties, vaccine mandates anti-abortion laws actually further them.[/u] They protect the most vulnerable among us, including people with disabilities and fragile immune systems, children too young to be vaccinated, and communities of color hit hard by the disease. advocate for their life.


Further more, former CEO of planned parenthood Crystal Strait now heads an NGO called "ProtectUs", which is quite literally dedicated to sponsoring legislation that mandates covid shots for school children.

The vaccine working group of Democratic legislators behind the proposals say their aim is to increase vaccination rates across all age groups, improve the state vaccine registration database and crack down on misinformation about the virus and the vaccine.

. . .

The bills:

SB 871 would require all children 0 to 17 to get the COVID-19 vaccine to attend child care or school;
SB 866 would allow kids 12 to 17 to get the COVID-19 vaccine without parental consent;
SB 1479 would require schools to continue testing and to create testing plans;
SB 1018 would require online platforms to be more transparent about how information is pushed out to consumers;
SB 1464 would force law enforcement officials to enforce public health orders;
AB 1993 would require all employees, including independent contractors, to show proof of COVID-19 vaccine to work in California;
AB 1797 would make changes to the California Immunization Record Database;
AB 2098 would reclassify the sharing of COVID-19 “misinformation” by doctors and surgeons as unprofessional conduct that would result in disciplinary action.

. . .

The legislative working group is made up of Democratic Sens. Pan, Newman and Scott Wiener of San Francisco, and Democratic Assembly members Akilah Weber of San Diego, Buffy Wicks of Oakland, Cecilia Aguiar-Curry of Winters and Evan Low, of Cupertino. All of the bills are being sponsored by ProtectUS, a pro-vaccine group created by Crystal Strait, a former member of Pan’s staff.

- https://calmatters.org/health/coronavir ... cine-laws/

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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby JackRiddler » Wed May 04, 2022 8:41 am

liminalOyster » Tue May 03, 2022 9:20 pm wrote:Thank you, Jack.

Edit: I would add that while the leak is highly unusual, that should also be seen in proportion to the significance of the event. It's quite easy to imagine, for me at least, that anyone who had access to the document but was opposed to it would have dared to whistleblow it as perhaps the most culturally significant ruling since Brown vs Board of Ed.


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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed May 04, 2022 10:53 am

.
Unfortunately most threads these days will have a form of derailment as no topic exists in a vaccuum, especially not in the last ~2yrs. There are few, if any, silos, and increasingly, information mgmt/sentiment manipulation is becoming increasingly brazen, overt, and pervasive.

With that in mind, I believe this [temporary] derailment may fit in here:

Ooana Trien ~ Eric Arthur Blair’s mistress
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Ladies…the same people now claiming your rights are at risk in an unprecedented way just spent two years denying grandmothers visitation from their loved ones, forced mothers to be masked and without support during child birth, locked down women during the last of their fertile years, dismissed the upticks in suicides caused by isolation amongst teenage girls, told women that vaccination was not only safe and effective it was without risk, told this to pregnant women as well, dismissed the uptick in miscarriage, treated the changes in women’s cycles like an annoyance, treat the increased number of widows like a lie, treated the uptick in child deaths due to policies such as denying access to therapies and forced vaccination as misinformation, shut down women owned businesses, supported policies that led to more violent attacks including rape by strangers than cities like NYC saw in decades…then claimed it was an issue of equity, have silenced women who speak out against men in women’s prisons and women’s sports and called such speech hate speech, forced women to be vaccinated or risk losing their job, told Americans that if you were unvaccinated you were a danger to society and encouraged animosity toward you…even if you had a medical reason that you couldn’t be vaccinated, forced your children to be masked while they were not and told you it was to protect grandma or it was until the vaccine was approved for them.

But this…this is the most awful infringement on our rights.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!

https://twitter.com/ooana/status/152141 ... 70Jk3zD8Pw
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby liminalOyster » Wed May 04, 2022 11:14 am

Belligerent Savant » Wed May 04, 2022 10:53 am wrote:.
Unfortunately most threads these days will have a form of derailment as no topic exists in a vaccuum, especially not in the last ~2yrs. There are few, if any, silos, and increasingly, information mgmt/sentiment manipulation is becoming increasingly brazen, overt, and pervasive.

With that in mind, I believe this [temporary] derailment may fit in here:

Ooana Trien ~ Eric Arthur Blair’s mistress
@ooana

Ladies…the same people now claiming your rights are at risk in an unprecedented way just spent two years denying grandmothers visitation from their loved ones, forced mothers to be masked and without support during child birth, locked down women during the last of their fertile years, dismissed the upticks in suicides caused by isolation amongst teenage girls, told women that vaccination was not only safe and effective it was without risk, told this to pregnant women as well, dismissed the uptick in miscarriage, treated the changes in women’s cycles like an annoyance, treat the increased number of widows like a lie, treated the uptick in child deaths due to policies such as denying access to therapies and forced vaccination as misinformation, shut down women owned businesses, supported policies that led to more violent attacks including rape by strangers than cities like NYC saw in decades…then claimed it was an issue of equity, have silenced women who speak out against men in women’s prisons and women’s sports and called such speech hate speech, forced women to be vaccinated or risk losing their job, told Americans that if you were unvaccinated you were a danger to society and encouraged animosity toward you…even if you had a medical reason that you couldn’t be vaccinated, forced your children to be masked while they were not and told you it was to protect grandma or it was until the vaccine was approved for them.

But this…this is the most awful infringement on our rights.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!

https://twitter.com/ooana/status/152141 ... 70Jk3zD8Pw


What exactly does this derailment add to the current crisis around the likely overturning of Roe which will *immediately* stop young women in primarily conservative states (the kind where often a majority of legislators agree pretty much wholly with the narrative you offer here) who have been abused in their families or are in abusive relationships, are far too poor or young to care for a child, from having the ability to control their own bodies and receive an abortion? Even if I agreed with half of what you proffer here, I would still think that essentially celebrating or even just minimizing a massive assault on bodily autonomy (solely for a class of people that neither of us are part of) as a rhetorical device is about as cynical as it gets.

I live in such a state and conservative politicians have been tweeting nearly exactly the same logics you weave together here, about COVID, for two years now. Only now they're celebrating their forthcoming "victory."
"It's not rocket surgery." - Elvis
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed May 04, 2022 11:29 am

.

The working/struggling classes were dramatically affected by covid policies (this includes loss of whatever livelihoods they had, loss of good health, and loss of life) -- far more so, in fact, than those that will be affected by this potential overturn.

You may be making a few assumptions about my circumstances. I was born and raised in a working class family. I'm first generation American. I have many working class family members and friends that were negatively impacted by covid policies over the last 2 years. I was negatively impacted as well, but managed to obtain [limited] exemption with my employer, though I'm currently enduring clear acts of discrimination as part of their 'terms' (though this may change soon, and I sure as hell realize I'm in a far better position than many, many others).

Of course, there is much to be discussed here, and there is similarity in theme.

What exactly does this derailment add to the current crisis around the likely overturning of Roe which will *immediately* stop young women in primarily conservative states (the kind where often a majority of legislators agree pretty much wholly with the narrative you offer here) who have been abused in their families or are in abusive relationships, are far too poor or young to care for a child, from having the ability to control their own bodies and receive an abortion?


'immediately stop'? nothing is known for certain at this time. Of course there are legitimate issues and concerns here, if indeed it gets overturned, and if indeed certain states will push forward with policies that will have dramatic impact on females of certain classes, especially if there won't be means for support/funding, or other policies that may be passed to provide coverage for those that need it.

But to suggest this is in no way connected, or that they're two wholly separate topics, is simply disingenuous.

Bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy. Or No?

What is the bigger picture here? Why now?
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Re: US Supremes on track to overturn right to abortion

Postby Marionumber1 » Wed May 04, 2022 11:56 am

Belligerent Savant » Tue May 03, 2022 9:52 am wrote:Also: perhaps allowing States to decide on this issue isn't a bad thing.


Do you feel the same way about COVID polices like, say, vaccine passports: that instead of a Supreme Court decision which would rightfully invalidate such laws across the country as unconstitutional, states should be able to decide individually whether or not they levy that restriction on their citizens?

The way I see it, "states' rights" is a lazy solution (hence its appeal to faux-libertarians like Ron Paul, who believed states could restrict abortion, gay marriage, etc.) that simply moves the problem. Yes, you got the federal government "out" of the issue, but you've just paved the way for the states to suppress civil liberties themselves; and by getting the feds "out" of the matter, you've potentially removed a bulwark that might have stopped the states from restricting their citizens' rights.
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