So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elvis » Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:26 pm

A new documentary about all this will be released in May—it looks excellent, and hopefully a game-changer:


Finding the Money OFFICIAL TRAILER


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R47h_ux-nE8

An intrepid group of economists is on a mission to instigate a paradigm shift by flipping our understanding of the national debt — and the nature of money — upside down. FINDING THE MONEY follows Stephanie Kelton, former chief economist on the Senate Budget Committee, on a journey through Modern Money Theory or "MMT," to inject new hope and empower democracies around the world to tackle the biggest challenges of the 21st century: from climate change to inequality.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elihu » Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:04 am

empower democracies around the world to tackle the biggest challenges of the 21st century: from climate change to inequality.
I guess this is relevant to the point. The digital currencies to be implemented are incredibly completely authoritarian. For Good! Yeah I know, for good, by the brilliant for the less endowed. Of course. Ever thus.

It's as if they could flip a switch right now and "make interest payments consume no resources whatsoever". I wish they would. But here's the cynic's bet: They can't fully implement digital currency without a crisis. And I think one is brewing....
But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elvis » Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:04 pm

Elihu wrote:The digital currencies to be implemented are incredibly completely authoritarian.


That depends entirely on how a CBDC is designed. Anonymity features can be designed in, e.g. physical wallets unconnected to any ledger—like paper cash. A CBDC gives citizens direct access to central bank dollars—the real thing—without the need for private bank intermediaries. CBDC has the potential to be more democratic, not less.

You could say the money system itself is ultimately authoritarian. The dollar is "backed" by the (essentially) universal need to obtain dollars to pay federal tax.

Elihu wrote:They can't fully implement digital currency without a crisis.


Numerous countries have rolled out CBDCs and...nothing happened.

US dollars come in many forms & functions: bank reserves; bank deposits; Federal Reserve Notes; coins; and Treasury certificates, notes, bills, and bonds. A CBDC is just another form of US dollar—but its design—its engineering—is critical to its function.

Two of my favorite writers on CBDC and digital currencies (and money in general) are Brett Scott and Rohan Grey. Grey is a lawyer who's been working with US lawmakers writing legislation defining a US CBDC and how it should be engineered. Scott is an anthropologist who studeis and writes about money. I highly recommend reading their work/hearing their talks. Three examples:


Zen and the Art of CBDC Analysis (Part 1)
"5 ways to focus the mind before leaping to conclusions on an overheated topic"
https://www.asomo.co/p/cbdc-analysis


Stablecoins, CBDCs, and the STABLE Act with Rohan Grey
"... joined by Rohan Grey to discuss stablecoins, CBDCs, the STABLE Act, and money transmitters in general"

https://youtu.be/6WGAG5TAz-A



Digital Money
by Rohan Grey

[...] Today, the clearest manifestation of this political struggle is the so-called “War on Cash;” a concerted
international campaign by governments and businesses to drive consumers away from physical
currency and towards forms of digital money that can be more easily monitored, data-mined, and
censored.67 This “war” is justified on the basis of reducing crime and promoting “efficiency,”
“inclusion,” and, in the aftermath of COVID-19, “public health.”68 In practice, however, it is waged
through both soft propaganda and the violent suppression of non-digital payments practices, embodied
most starkly in Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s 2016 shock-move to demonetize a significant
fraction of all high-denomination currency notes in private circulation.69 While there have been some
scattered attempts to resist the tide, such as the recent enactment of a law in the city of Philadelphia
prohibiting “cashless” businesses,70 they have thus far met with with only limited success.

If central bank digital currency is the contemporary financial vanguard of the network society’s drive to
establish a “pervasive global nervous system across [the] planet,”71 then the War on Cash is its
rearguard. What the invention of the telegraph in the nineteenth century began, the eradication of
physical currency in the twenty first century will complete. As Brett Scott observed in 2016, “the Death
of Cash means the Rise of Something Else. [The war against the ‘War on Cash’ is thus a] battle to
maintain alternatives to the growing digital panopticon that is emerging all around us.”72 In this sense,
perhaps the greatest threat to human freedom in the twenty-first century lies not in the legal enclosure
of the digital, but rather the digital enclosure of the analog, and with it, the homogenization and
standardization of previously diverse modes of social and economic interaction.

Conclusion

Money, information technologies, and global governance regimes are inherently interconnected.
Monetary systems are – at least in part – information systems, capable of both producing new social
dynamics, and refracting existing social dynamics through the logic of monetary accumulation. In turn,
monetary and informational practices shape, and are shaped by, prevailing institutional and legal
governance structures. Over the past nearly two centuries, the increasing digitization of society has
transformed both money and information technologies in a way that has profound implications for law,
and international law in particular. Political decisions made today regarding the design and regulation
of public and private digital money, as well as the balance between digital and analog modes of
monetary activity, will reverberate for generations to come, and set the terms for broader debates about
the future of the global economy.


https://rohangrey.net/files/digitalmoney.pdf
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elvis » Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:09 pm

Elihu wrote:It's as if they could flip a switch right now and "make interest payments consume no resources whatsoever"


What resources are being consumed by interest payments on Treasury securities? None that i know of. A few watts of electricity?
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:07 pm

Elvis » Thu Apr 04, 2024 4:04 pm wrote:
Elihu wrote:The digital currencies to be implemented are incredibly completely authoritarian.


That depends entirely on how a CBDC is designed. Anonymity features can be designed in, e.g. physical wallets unconnected to any ledger—like paper cash. A CBDC gives citizens direct access to central bank dollars—the real thing—without the need for private bank intermediaries. CBDC has the potential to be more democratic, not less.


Good christ. Doing a quick drive-by here and am compelled to chime in.

CBDC = CENTRALLY Backed Digital Currency. This is decidedly NOT 'democratic' (that anyone believes any system today is developed with 'democracy' in mind is almost dangerously naive). I mean, holy shit. Do you for an instant scrutinize any of the academic literature you read on this topic?

Can it theoretically be implemented to benefit the average citizen? Sure, technically it can. But will it?
Highly Unlikely, especially in any/all 1st World Nations that may implement it.
CBDCs may (be presented to) offer some near-term benefit for a subset, initially, but once this system is set up, at any time the code/criteria can be set to become exceedingly restrictive/draconian.

Trojan Fucking Horse.

CBDCs rely on implementation of 'smart contracts', which can be set to any criteria, programmatically, that would 'trigger' restrictions or enablements depending on the underlying code mechanisms. Social Credit Scores are just one example of how smart contracts/digital IDs can all be facilitated and enabled under a CBDC system.

Want an example of its potential in a REAL WORLD setting? See here:



Decidedly NOT 'democratic'.

The following was shared in another thread here some time ago. Seems it's time for a refresher:

Belligerent Savant » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:20 am wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:57 pm wrote:
...

So, hypothetically:

Once an individual's "Digital ID" (vaccine status, health info, bank/digital asset info, employment status, criminal record, internet activity, etc) is stored on the blockchain, a 'smart contract' can/will be appended to that individual's ID.

So long as one keeps to their vaccine schedule, or avoids certain activities deemed to be 'domestic threats', access to your digital monetary assets will remain active. Stray from the straight line, however, and mechanisms will automatically trigger to withhold funds (no human 'broker-bureaucrat' required; the terms/code of the 'smart' contract does all the work), or otherwise prevent you from making purchases (such as public transit or meals).

These smart contracts would also be built-into other services, such as UBI. In order to qualify for UBI, you must meet certain prerequisites -- easily verified via your Digital ID profile. Failure to maintain certain policy requirements will result in withholding of UBI until the 'issues' (e.g., getting your latest booster shot) are resolved.

This becomes particularly important if CASH/FIAT is no longer a viable alternative.

...


...

https://theupheaval.substack.com/p/just ... -cbdcs?s=r

Just Say No to CBDCs

A Central Bank Digital Currency would enable a totalitarian nightmare

Image

N.S. Lyons
15 hr ago

You awake to find that today is special: it’s Stimmie Day! When you roll over and check your phone, you see a notification from your FedWallet app letting you know that another $2,000 in FedCoins has just been added directly to your account by the U.S. Federal Reserve.

To be honest, part of you would love to save that money for the long term, given that things have been getting rather uncertain and actually kind of crazy lately, what with the war and the economy and all… But you can’t, since these FedCoins are coded as usable for consumer purchases only, and will expire and vanish in seven days. So you’d better spend em while you’ve got em!

The latest PlayBox it is then. Everyone says Elden Ring 3 is the hottest VR game on the Metaverse right now, and you’ve really wanted to join in. Since you’re stubbornly old fashioned, you decide to check it out at BezosMart on the way home from work today before you get it delivered by drone to your tiny apartment.

But first you begin your day as you always do, with a quick stop at the local Starbrats’ automated, no-contact drive-through latte dispensary. Opening your FedWallet app and vaguely waving your smartphone at the machine is enough to complete the transaction. $14 in FedCoins are instantly deleted from your digital account at the Fed and recreated in Starbrats’ corporate account, well before the sweet, coffee-flavored milk beverage is deposited into your eager, grasping hands.

Your morning starts to go downhill quickly, however, when you realize that your SUV is almost out of gas. You pull the old clunker, with its antiquated combustion engine, into the nearest open station you can find – it looks pretty run-down – and roll up to the pump. A dull-eyed teenager in a facemask inserts a nozzle into your vehicle and waits for you to pre-pay. You wave your phone at the pump. Nothing happens. You try again. Your phone buzzes, and you look at it. There’s a message from the Fed: “You have already spent more than the $400 maximum weekly limit on fossil fuels specified in the FedWallet User Agreement. Your remaining account balance cannot be used to purchase non-renewable energy resources. Please make an alternative purchase. Have you considered a clean, affordable New Energy Vehicle? Thank you for doing your part to build a more just and sustainable world!”

You have in fact considered purchasing a clean, affordable New Energy Vehicle. But they still aren’t very affordable for you, what with the supply chain shortages. Despite the instant credit the Fed would add to your balance when buying an electric car – plus the permanent ten percent general subsidy you automatically receive on every purchase as a BIPOC individual thanks to the Fed’s Reparations Alternatives for Comprehensive Equity (RACE) program – the down payment on a new car would still be more than you can afford, even with your new stimmie coins.

Well, you’re not going to be able to make it to work at the warehouse on what you have in the tank. How could you be so foolish? You’re going to have no choice but to park here and blow a bunch of money on hailing one of those sleek, incredibly expensive self-driving electric cabs to take you there instead. But, as you’re about to tap the screen to do so, you notice there’s a classic fast-food joint next door. Might as well head there first to unload a little stimmie money. Nothing makes you feel better like a greasy breakfast sandwich.

Entering the establishment and sidling up to the old touchscreen kiosk, you order a McKraken with extra bacon. But when you wave your phone to pay, an error message pops up again. “You have exceeded your weekly purchase limit for complex animal protein, as stipulated in the FedWallet User Agreement. Have you considered purchasing a delicious vegan or mealworm alternative? Thank you for doing your part to build a more just and sustainable world!”

This is a sandwich too far for you during an especially hard week. “Ugh FedWallet is so fucking lame!” you post on Twatter as you idle hungrily in front of the kiosk. “Your message has been flagged for review,” says an immediate notification. “As a reminder, using ableist hate speech may impact your ESG score and future financing opportunities. Thank you for doing your part to build a more just and inclusive world!”

“Omg this is absurd, life was so much better before FedCoin, when we still had cash!” you post again to Twatter, unable to control yourself. “Your account has been locked pending national security review,” says a notification from FedWallet. “As a reminder, the proliferation of false or misleading narratives which sow discord or undermine public trust in government institutions is classified as a potential domestic terrorism offence by the Department of Homeland Security. We value your feedback.”


You jerk awake, fumbling at your phone with trembling, sweaty fingers. Oh thank God, it was all just a terrible dream! You just dozed off while reading Rod Dreher’s blog. You can still eat all the steak and bacon you want. There’s nothing to worry about…

But no, you’re actually reading Politico, and see with horror that President Biden has just released a “sweeping” executive order directing the government to immediately begin moving to comprehensively regulate cryptocurrencies while developing a digital dollar issued by the Federal Reserve. “My Administration places the highest urgency on research and development efforts into the potential design and deployment options of a United States CBDC,” he declares, in a line probably narrated in a creepy whisper.

You are wracked by foreboding amid the sudden cawing of ravens.

At least you should be, because everything about central bank digital currency (CBDC) is the stuff of totalitarian nightmare.

But let’s start with the basics: what is a CBDC?

Well, as the term implies, it’s digital money issued directly by a central bank. You might assume that you are already using “digital currency” right now, since you rarely use physical cash anymore, instead buying everything with a credit card or a digital payment app; you impulse buy something on Amazon and these do their thing – with the 1s and the 0s and whatnot – over the internet, and boom: numbers are moved between accounts.

But in truth the process of moving money from A to B is vastly more complicated than that. It involves a tangle of payment processors, banks holding federal debt, financial clearing houses, and, if your money is crossing borders, international communication and exchange systems like the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (SWIFT). Since generally the actual money itself doesn’t move, each institution must take on risks to fulfill your transaction by accepting promises, sending transfers, and verifying receipt of funds, etc. So naturally many fees are collected along the way for such services.

A CBDC system would be radically simplified. A customer opens an account directly with a country’s “independent” central bank (let’s say the Federal Reserve), and the central bank issues (creates) digital money (whether denominated as dollars, or FedCoins, or whatever) in that account. This makes the money a direct liability of the Fed, rather than of a private bank. Using digital tools (like say a “FedWallet” app) the customer can initiate direct transactions between Fed accounts. The digital money is deleted in one account and recreated in another essentially instantaneously. No promises or trust is necessary; every transaction is permanently recorded on a digital cryptographic ledger in real time. Kind of like Bitcoin, but exquisitely centrally managed. The Fed retains complete oversight and control over the creation, destruction, and “movement” of money, no matter who “has” it, or where it “is.”

Or as Agustin Carstens, General Manager of the Bank of International Settlements (BIS), helpfully put it at a 2020 summit of the International Monetary Fund:
“We don’t know who’s using a $100 bill today and we don’t know who’s using a 1,000 peso bill today. The key difference with the CBDC is the central bank will have absolute control on the rules and regulations that will determine the use of that expression of central bank liability, and also we will have the technology to enforce that… and that makes a huge difference.”

Moreover, in such a centralized system there is no longer any need for middlemen like banks or credit card companies. The Fed and its magic coins handle everything. Some planning documents for CBDCs discuss still including private banks in a “public-private partnership” system. But that’s only because customers love banks so much and because banks would love to keep charging fees for handling your money as long as they can, even if in reality they are reduced to being totally redundant husks for central bank software.

Image

Among their many conveniences, CBDCs could also greatly simplify moving money across borders. Something as complex as SWIFT would no longer be needed. If you are moving digital dollars into your investment account from your office in Dubai, that would be as simple as receiving the Fed’s digital blessing. Meanwhile converting dollars into Euros, for example, would be slightly more complex, but just require a pre-existing agreement between the Fed and the European Central Bank to allow this. Of course, if either party did not want you to be able to exchange your money, you’d be out of luck.

Finally, because these digital coins are minted out of code, they are easily “programmable” to function, or not function, however or whenever the central bank wants them to – a small detail about which we’ll get into later.

But first, how did we get here, anyway? Cash has been working at least fairly well for a few thousand years. Why is it suddenly now a matter of “the highest urgency” for the United States to push for a technological revolution in money?

In truth, momentum toward the development of CBDCs has been building for years, ever since Bitcoin appeared and demonstrated that digital currencies were a thing now. Once they caught on, central bankers started doing their own research into how they could best jump on the crypto bandwagon too.

Over the last several years, one central bank after another has released reports on what that might look like. As a summary report by the BIS recently put it, “Central banks' interest in CBDC has increased as a potential means of delivering their public policy objectives,” while allowing them “to evolve in step with the wider digitalisation of people’s day-to-day lives.” Plus, “Profound, ongoing changes across finance, technology and society, as well as the ongoing Covid-19 crisis, provide additional impetus” for doing so now while there seems to be the opportunity for some kind of reset, or something.

And so eight of the largest central banks (including the Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank, the Bank of England, the Bank of Japan, and the Bank of Canada, among others) have decided to form a tentative consortium, with guidance from BIS, in order to “enable interoperability and cross-border transactions between [their] domestic CBDCs” as they move forward with development.

In their public reports, these central banks all tend to cite the same reasons for why implementing a CBDC would be beneficial.

A Fed report from January, for instance, portrays a CBDC as a way to “support faster and cheaper payments,” and “offer the general public broad access to digital money that is free from credit risk.” In particular, it argues that, “Promoting financial inclusion – particularly for economically vulnerable households and communities – is a high priority for the Federal Reserve.”

Biden’s executive order also calls for the need to “Promote Equitable Access to Safe and Affordable Financial Services by affirming the critical need for safe, affordable, and accessible financial services as a U.S. national interest that must inform our approach to digital asset innovation, including disparate impact risk.”

And the ECB figures a digital Euro could not only “increase choice, competition and accessibility with regard to digital payments, supporting financial inclusion,” but also “represent an option for reducing the overall costs and ecological footprint of the monetary and payment systems.”

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The Bank of Canada assesses that a “CBDC could be necessary in the future to ensure a competitive digital economy,” and also “solve market failures” on social and economic issues.

“So, under what conditions would a central bank find it necessary to issue a digital currency?” the Bank asks rhetorically. Well, “the answer to the previous question is somewhat trivial: if a CBDC is expected to increase welfare, then a central bank should issue one.” Ah, so simple!

Image
Wait, what was that part about discontinuing banknotes?

That stuff sounds nice and all, but still: why the new level of urgency? After all, it wasn’t too long ago that Fed Chair Jerome Powell was going around saying that when it came to CBDCs it was “more important to get it right than to be first,” given the “potential risks” and “important trade-offs that have to be thought through carefully.”

Well, fortunately you can always count on the Americans to say the quiet part out loud.

“The United States derives significant economic and national security benefits from the central role that the United States dollar and United States financial institutions and markets play in the global financial system,” Biden’s new executive order states. Therefore, “The United States has an interest in ensuring that it remains at the forefront of responsible development and design of digital assets and the technology that underpins new forms of payments and capital flows in the international financial system.”

Or as BlackRock’s former Global Head of Sustainable Investing, and now Director of the U.S. National Economic Council, Brian Deese put it even more directly: “The approach outlined in the E.O. will reinforce U.S. leadership in the global financial system and safeguard the long-term efficacy of critical national security tools like sanctions and anti-money laundering frameworks.”

Oh, right. You see, it turns out that it’s the Chinese that have pioneered the development of a CBDC (the Digital Yuan) and even begun putting it into limited circulation and testing its cross-border functionality.

Right now the dollar’s overwhelming use by those conducting global commercial transactions means that the United States has quite a bit of leverage to strong-arm banks, or the whole SWIFT network, into not doing business with anyone we don’t want them to do business with – i.e. it can impose sanctions. But if there was some easier, faster, less-interdictable-by-Yankees alternative, something that could move money across borders and be exchanged instantaneously with zero-cost, such as a Digital Yuan, then some people around the world might be tempted to start using that instead of the dollar – in fact many might in time find they have much less use for the dollar at all. In the long-run, only the development of a similarly fast, convenient, convertible, widely used, and easily controlled digital architecture seems certain to allow the West to maintain its collective dominance over global financial flows, preventing the enemies of America and its allies from escaping the long arm of the liberal international order’s sanctions regime.

And by enemies of course I mean Russians. So really it’s hard to see who could oppose CBDCs; I mean, are you pro-Russia or something?

It’s just that, once we do our patriotic duty and implement a FedCoin to stop Putin, there are some other potential ways in which the Fed may be tempted to use the One Coin of Power here at home that may be worth considering in advance. You see, the unique “programmability” of CBDCs happens to open up a huge range of intriguing possibilities that you, and I, and maybe even the central banks, might not yet have fully thought through.

When word first arrived that the People’s Bank of China “has tested expiration dates to encourage users to spend it quickly, for times when the economy needs a jump start,” Western monetary policymakers – who struggled for years to use negative interest rates to stop people from saving – probably spat coffee-flavored milk beverage all over their monitors. But that is still pretty midwit-level creative thinking.

We could of course directly subtract taxes and fees from any account, in real time, with every transaction or paycheck, if we wished. And there would be no more tax evasion, either, since we have a complete record of every transaction made by everyone.

And say goodbye to unapproved money laundering, terrorist financing, or financial crime in general. With a CBDC, all transactions are clean and transparent transactions.

In fact, we could levy fines in real time too, as long as we’ve hooked up the Internet of Things by then – speeding and jaywalking will become the scourges of an uncivilized past!

If we are feeling more generous, there would also no longer be any need to mail out stimulus checks, since money could just be deposited directly into accounts. As could welfare or universal basic income payments – so convenient for the little people!

But why not go higher resolution than that: how about targeted microfinance grants, added straight to the accounts of those people and businesses that are extra deserving? There’s no need to wait for annual tax credits and loopholes when those are now antiquated.

A Fed-funded discount could even be applied to those businesses the people most want to help; Google and Yelp already flag which businesses are or are not black-owned or LGBTQ-friendly, presumably so people can preference their patronage, so why not assist with a little nudge here and there? Or we could go in the other direction and effectively change the price of anything based on the identity of who’s buying it.

Indeed a CBDC could make ending any kind of systemic inequities much easier, and through market friendly means. And as the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco has reminded us, after all, being “‘race-neutral’ is not enough” when it comes to monetary and fiscal policy. The central bank could really be doing more in general.

Discriminatory practices like redlining by banks would certainly be a thing of the past; unless of course we wanted to do a little bit of redlining, just to make things a bit more equitable maybe, in which case we could do it, like, super easily.

Prison abolition has proven challenging. But a CBDC could help: just geofence the location within which parolees’ money can be used and not disappear – house arrest will never have been better incentivized! This would also work great in case we wanted to keep people confined to their homes for any other reason.

Should people be incentivized to eat the foods we think it’s best for them to eat? CBDCs can do that. Trying to get people to make reductions in their carbon footprint? CBDCs can help with that too.

But why just focus on individuals? Why not provide preferential financing to companies and investors virtuously meeting environmental, social, and governance (ESG) goals? This can be finely graded based on how closely they conform to standards.

And we could help nudge consumers away from organizations and businesses that are undesirable, too. Why not collect additional fees for transactions with “risky” businesses or charities that have low ESG scores? Or slow down their transaction speed to allow for greater “verification.” Just as a nudge, of course; people would still have free choice.

In fact why not create comprehensive credit scores based on behavior and number of associational connections with dangerous, risky individuals and organizations? It’s only logical as a next step.

Though if it were ever really necessary, like if they were honking truck horns too many times in a row, the most dangerous individuals or organizations could simply have their digital assets temporarily deleted, or their accounts’ ability to transact frozen, with the push of a button, locking them out of the commercial system and greatly mitigating the threat they pose to our democracy – no use of emergency powers to compel cooperation by intermediary financial institutions required!

But that’s just a start. There’s probably no limit to the innovative possibilities, really.

True, making so many interventions could get pretty complex for even a much-enlarged Fed staff to handle, but someday maybe we could plug the whole economy into the black box of a supercomputer AI and let it manage everything for us in minute detail, using perfect surveillance of pricing data to make real-time policy adjustments. Will we be able to comprehend everything that is happening or how judgements are handed down by the algorithm? No, but who cares – do you not already enjoy TikTok? Praise the Fed Spirit, for it will be generous and all-knowing!

Sorry, I got a little carried away there by the bureaucratic thrill of thinking about every remaining mitigating barrier between the private individual and the all-seeing, all-controlling state collapsing into a warm, patriotic plasma of perfect efficiency and social harmony.

It’s just that CBDCs have the potential to be a technocratic central planner’s wet dream. And given the political make-up of the Fed, the direction that dream is likely to take seems to already be pretty firmly fixed.

Meanwhile, in the United States there happens to be no constitutional right enshrining the freedom to conduct property transactions. Which is very convenient for circumventing all those other pesky rights if their bearers happen to stand in the way of the greater good. Freedom of speech? Sure, but it’s not much good if no one can buy those rabble-rousers’ books and they can’t buy ink, let alone web hosting services. Freedom of assembly? Sure, but only if they’re prepared to walk! There’s nothing really in the way of the Fed working to “allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven, while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step.”

In fact, the implementation of a CBDC could represent the single greatest expansion of totalitarian power in human history. Never has there been any regime with such omnipotent insight into and control over its people’s every transaction as what CBDCs may soon make possible. No Xerxes, no Caligula, no Stalin, no Kim Jong Un has ever held such power. And yet this is what will soon be smuggled into use in our societies in the name of convenience, social justice, and patriotism.

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe we should just say no to CBDCs.



Excerpt from the comments:
Frank Lee ·9 hr ago

It blows my mind that the youngsters are supporting the political agenda that is committed to taking control of all institutions that provide for independent life. I cannot tell if the kids are just so brainwashed from their campus experience and media feeds that they are sleepwalking to their own misery... or if more layers of oppressive rules and control feel good to them.

The hope of the digital world was to eliminate the man from the middle of everything. Today they man is firmly in control of the digital world and working to completely dominate it. Why are the kids not resisting THIS!?

1Reply

Clever Pseudonym 8 hr ago·

I think your question answers itself: ie, smartphones, constant internet access, and social media are the greatest tools of social conditioning and mass-opinion control and formation ever invented, they have created a digital panopticon of docile anxious conformists constantly monitoring each other for social miscues or deviations from orthodoxy, all happy to report each other to the authorities for social credit and virtual virtue points.

What we are living through is the internet swallowing all of humanity (all human systems and cultures and relationships etc), and obliterating every possible barrier between public/private and virtual/real.

This is naturally more painful and confusing for those of us who lived during the glorious Olden Times; but for the "digital natives" this is the only world they've ever known so it feels only natural to live a life entirely inside the Machine.

Think of those of us over, say, 30ish as the last wild free-range humans (at least till the inevitable cataclysm), and then once we're gone, we'll be replaced by zoo animals.



The world was fucking upended in 2020 because too many fucking rubes subscribed to narratives that SHOULD HAVE been more rigorously scrutinized, and as a result, TOO many were far too compliant, to our collective detriment.

Do NOT MAKE the SAME ERROR AGAIN, be it for 'CBDCs', yet another fucking 'pandemic', climate fucking 'alarm', or whatever other global hobglobins these beasts choose to conjure up.


This appeal of mine is a futile effort, as I know all too well that -- despite all the clear-cut signals to refuse/resist -- too many remain primed and ready to do the same thing again. Indeed, a subset continue to believe blatant acts of fascism as perpetreted from 2020 - late 2022 were 'necessary', and as such will be willing to plunge deeper into control measures next time they are informed to do so.

Fucking lemmings.
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elihu » Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:09 pm

But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elihu » Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:20 pm

This appeal of mine is a futile effort,
Sir you are demoralized prepare to carry on These are times that try mens souls. Is crypto lendable? Like how could I borrow some crypto?

Want an example of its potential in a REAL WORLD setting?
no thanks for asking
Last edited by Elihu on Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elihu » Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:22 pm

https://tradingeconomics.com/crypto
the YOY column is the interesting one
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elihu » Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:46 pm

https://www.statista.com/statistics/377 ... alization/

wow. hard to get info on bitcoin, which is counter intuitive wouldn't one think? I'm not sure where it is at now, but I think back in September all bitcoin (I almost use "bitcoin" and "crypto" interchangeably) was three and one half percent of gold's market cap? (please some kind soul double check me) And gold is the tip of Exeter's Pyramid so that would launch you to the all out value of all the world's financial assets, (it starts sounding ridiculous)

so, mountain out of a molehill? it's different. got to be in the matrix to use it. for the time being one can still cash it out of the matrix. but that currently peaceful exchange might not last. It's already difficult and getting harder. full disclosure i barely can work a cell phone
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:07 pm

Not sure what you mean by "info". but there's no shortage of it.
https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elihu » Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:47 pm

I think I mean, "how much of the world's "money" is in bitcoin?" And then, where does that number rank, in a list of world money starting with cash, gold, bank accounts, stocks, bonds , etc, etc, etc and then there is a total number at the end? What would that look like?
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elvis » Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:33 pm

Belligerent Savant wrote:CBDC = CENTRALLY Backed Digital Currency. This is decidedly NOT 'democratic'

Every US dollar, in each of its forms, is a centrally backed currency. The same is true for every nation's currency. Not sure what you're saying here.


Belligerent Savant wrote:Do you for an instant scrutinize any of the academic literature you read on this topic?

I scrutinize all that I read about it. Have you bothered to read the litereature I posted and respond to it? I mean, holy shit.

You're just saying money is bad, because the government that issues it can abuse it. What's new? Any money system can be set up to become exceedingly restrictive/draconian—whether it's recorded on clay tablets or digital computers. It is a creature of law.



N.S. Lyons wrote:You awake to find that today is special: it’s Stimmie Day! When you roll over and check your phone, you see a notification from your FedWallet app letting you know that another $2,000 in FedCoins has just been added directly to your account by the U.S. Federal Reserve.

Is this what Lyons thinks a CBDC is all about? "Stimmies"? If a government spending plan is intended to stimulate the economy, saving does the opposite. Numerous currencies in history have carried expiration dates for exactly this reason. It's nothing new, it's very old. And they won't be "FedCoins," they'll be US dollars.

N.S. Lyon wrote: the central bank issues (creates) digital money (whether denominated as dollars, or FedCoins, or whatever) in that account. This makes the money a direct liability of the Fed, rather than of a private bank.

This is exactly how it works now. Reserves are a liability of the Fed. Treasuries are a liability of the Treasury (btw nothing stopping the Treasury from issuing "digital" dollars).


N.S. Lyon wrote:The Fed retains complete oversight and control over the creation, destruction, and “movement” of money, no matter who “has” it, or where it “is.”

This is not quite true: for one thing, Congress has oversight of the Fed. Any CBDC will be enacted by Congress, not the Fed. The Fed is not authorized to drop "stimmies" into citizens' bank accounts; Congress can change that, but not sure why. The people at the Fed say they couldn't care less how people spend their money—it's just not the Fed's purview.


N.S. Lyon wrote: Moreover, in such a centralized system there is no longer any need for middlemen like banks or credit card companies.

I rather like that. Private banks are currently the only means to access US dollars. I don't like that.
However, banks are useful for extending retail & business credit; the banking system could be made public, but that's another discussion.


N.S. Lyon wrote:Cash has been working at least fairly well for a few thousand years.

Before cash (coins), money was recorded on ledgers. That worked for at least 8,000 years before coinage was invented. Circulating coins gave people more choices.


N.S. Lyon wrote:momentum toward the development of CBDCs has been building for years, ever since Bitcoin appeared and demonstrated that digital currencies were a thing now. Once they caught on, central bankers started doing their own research into how they could best jump on the crypto bandwagon too.

A CBDC is nothing like bitcoin. A CBDC is a liability of the issuer; bitcoin isn't a liabilty of anyone's; they're completely different animals.


N.S. Lyon wrote:A Fed report from January, for instance, portrays a CBDC as a way to “support faster and cheaper payments,” and “offer the general public broad access to digital money that is free from credit risk.”

YES! :thumbsup


N.S. Lyon wrote:With a CBDC, all transactions are clean and transparent transactions.

Only if the law engineers it that way. The law can just as easily include off-ledger anonymity features. Tell your representatives—not the 'sound money' echo chamber.


Belligerent Savant wrote:And given the political make-up of the Fed, the direction that dream is likely to take seems to already be pretty firmly fixed.

Jay Powell is a lifelong Republican whose chief prior career was private equity lawyer for the Carlyle Group. First thing, "rout out the vipers!"


Belligerent Savant wrote: there would also no longer be any need to mail out stimulus checks, since money could just be deposited directly into accounts. As could welfare or universal basic income payments

This is a little silly, since the government already directly deposits stimulus and "welfare" payments into recipients' accounts. Indeed, the only way the government can spend is by crediting bank accounts.


Belligerent Savant wrote:maybe we should just say no to CBDCs

That's not really an option; CBDCs are already a reality and a US CBDC is inevitable. So I recommend taking it up with lawmakers and/or those who advise them on monetary/financial legislation.


Belligerent Savant wrote:The world was fucking upended in 2020

Yes, fact. The rest is opinion.


In general:

Money is a creature of law. Make the most of it. Congress, not the central bank, decides the engineering & functions of a CBDC—just as Congress defines all expressions of the US dollar. The central bank will do what Congress tells it to do—or not to do. As always.

Paper cash should absolutely be retained. Nothing about a CBDC necessitates the elimination of paper money & coins.

Connecting CBDCs with "pandemics" and "climate 'alarm'" is a bit over the top. "Digital money" is just a natural and sensible emergence from a "digitalized' world.
Consider the Star Wars universe: highly technological, everything is computerized and roboticized—except money, which still exists as heavy trunks of metal coins lugged around to make payments. That's actually a very interesting example of conditioned cultural reinforcement of conditioned conceptions of money as a commodity.

Time for the US to enter the 21st century.
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elvis » Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:41 pm

Elihu wrote: Is crypto lendable? Like how could I borrow some crypto?


Great question!

Is there anything to stop "fractional reserve lending" based on someone's bitcoin hoards?

For one thing, I think it would definitely require a banking license.
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:04 am

Elihu » Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:47 pm wrote:I think I mean, "how much of the world's "money" is in bitcoin?" And then, where does that number rank, in a list of world money starting with cash, gold, bank accounts, stocks, bonds , etc, etc, etc and then there is a total number at the end? What would that look like?


https://river.com/learn/how-much-worlds ... n-bitcoin/
From 2021: "In the scope of the world’s wealth, the value held in Bitcoin is miniscule. If we assume that this quadrillion roughly represents the total value of assets in the world, then Bitcoin represents 0.1% of all wealth in existence."

You can borrow and lend crypto on various De-Fi platforms built on Ethereum (AAVE being one of them) and other blockchains like the VC-backed Solana.
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Re: So what do yall think the new currency is going to be?

Postby Elvis » Sat Apr 06, 2024 1:41 pm

ethereum jpmorgan.jpg
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