"Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #400

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"Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #400

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:35 pm

The bad news is piling up faster and faster. They broke our planet. Watch Them closely, their every word and gesture.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/08/14/dead.zones.ap/index.html

Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Like a chronic disease spreading through the body, "dead zones" with too little oxygen for life are expanding in the world's oceans.

"We have to realize that hypoxia is not a local problem," said Robert J. Diaz of the Virginia Institute of Marine Science. "It is a global problem and it has severe consequences for ecosystems."

"It's getting to be a problem of such a magnitude that it is starting to affect the resources that we pull out of the sea to feed ourselves," he added.

Diaz and co-author Rutger Rosenberg report in Friday's edition of the journal Science that there are now more than 400 dead zones around the world, double what the United Nations reported just two years ago.

"If we screw up the energy flow within our systems we could end up with no crabs, no shrimp, no fish. That is where these dead zones are heading unless we stop their growth," Diaz said in a telephone interview.

The newest dead areas are being found in the Southern Hemisphere -- South America, Africa, parts of Asia -- Diaz said.

Some of the increase is due to the discovery of low-oxygen areas that may have existed for years and are just being found, he said, but others are actually newly developed.

Pollution-fed algae, which deprive other living marine life of oxygen, is the cause of most of the world's dead zones. Scientists mainly blame fertilizer and other farm run-off, sewage and fossil-fuel burning.

Diaz and Rosenberg, of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, conclude that it would be unrealistic to try to go back to pre-industrial levels of runoff.

"Farmers aren't doing this on purpose," Diaz said. "The farmers would certainly prefer to have their (fertilizer) on the land rather than floating down the river."

He said he hopes that as fertilizers become more and more expensive farmers will begin seriously looking at ways to retain them on the land.

New low-oxygen areas have been reported in Samish Bay of Puget Sound, Yaquina Bay in Oregon, prawn culture ponds in Taiwan, the San Martin River in northern Spain and some fjords in Norway, Diaz said.

A portion of Big Glory Bay in New Zealand became hypoxic after salmon farming cages were set up, but began recovering when the cages were moved, he said.

A dead zone has been newly reported off the mouth of the Yangtze River in China, Diaz said, but the area has probably been hypoxic since the 1950s. "We just didn't know about it," he said.

Some of the reports are being published for the first time in journals accessible to Western scientists, he said.

Nancy N. Rabalais, executive director of the Louisiana Universities Marine Consortium, said she was not surprised at the increase in dead zones.

"There have been many more reported, but there truly are many more. What has happened in the industrialized nations with agribusiness as well that led to increased flux of nutrients from the land to the estuaries and the seas is now happening in developing countries," said Rabalais, who was not part of Diaz' research team.

She said she was told during a 1989 visit to South America that rivers there were too large to have the same problems as the Mississippi River. "Now many of their estuaries and coastal seas are suffering the same malady."

"The increase is a troubling sign for estuarine and coastal waters, which are among some of the most productive waters on the globe," she said.
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Re: "Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #

Postby wintler2 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:34 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:..They broke our planet.
Who is 'they'?
Have you taken responsibility for your poo so it doesn't get flushed into the sea? Ever eat wildcatch fish? Ever let your plastic waste blow away? I'm not sure megascale enviro problems can be slated home to any particular 'they', we've all either passively or actively contributed to many of them.
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Re: "Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #

Postby justdrew » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:54 pm

wintler2 wrote:Who is 'they'?
Have you taken responsibility for your poo so it doesn't get flushed into the sea? Ever eat wildcatch fish? Ever let your plastic waste blow away? I'm not sure megascale enviro problems can be slated home to any particular 'they', we've all either passively or actively contributed to many of them.


I asked this question when I was about 8 years old. still waiting for an exact answer.

but... come on, you know damn well who 'they' is... the people who've made all the choices, the people who DECIDED it would be OK to dump toxic waste in the oceans forever, that it would be OK top spew vast amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere. That shit never went out for a vote. Some people decided to do industry this way, because it was cheaper for them.
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Re: "Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:05 pm

wintler2 wrote:
Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:..They broke our planet.
Who is 'they'?
Have you taken responsibility for your poo so it doesn't get flushed into the sea? Ever eat wildcatch fish? Ever let your plastic waste blow away? I'm not sure megascale enviro problems can be slated home to any particular 'they', we've all either passively or actively contributed to many of them.


I don't dismiss personal actions and responsibility towards the planet at all.
Every footprint counts.

But just a few determine the paths for many of those feet.

And I refer to 'They' figuritively to indicate the elite men (a relatively small number of them) who actively suppressed information about the deadly toxicity and consequences of their economic and industrial policies, first when nuclear bomb tests were irradiating the planet and then after Rachel Carson first pointed at the chemicals we were immersed in.

Here in the US there's been widespread support for environmentally-sound legislation and policies since the 1960s but this has been opposed by the Captains of Industry and their National inSecurity State partners as too psychologically dangerous for the Warfare State.

Can't have people being all sensitive to life and vigilant against power, can we, and still run a war economy.
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Postby professorpan » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:33 pm

I think both Hugh and wintler both make excellent points.

The enemy isn't just "they." It's "us."

It's not just the captains of industry -- it's every single person who shrugs and says "fuck it, what can I do" who allows the captains of industry to continue raping and pillaging.
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Re: "Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #

Postby barracuda » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:22 am

wintler2 wrote:I'm not sure megascale enviro problems can be slated home to any particular 'they', we've all either passively or actively contributed to many of them.

Uh uh. I don't buy that one. That's a nice way to socialize the ills of the planet while allowing the worst offenders to get off easy with their money in hand.

Who is "they"? The multi-nationals and the corrupt government officials charged with the ultimate stewardship of huge tracts of resources that are funneled into wastefull processes for the financial benefit of a select few and to the ultimate detriment of the rest of us.

Who is "they"? They are Unocal, Exxon, the tobacco companies, AT&T, the logging industry, McDonalds, the fishing industry and the politicians who keep "them" in business through graft and mendacity while the rest of us know exactly what should be done and are rendered powerless to accomplish it through the machinations of power and money that drives their heartless system. Sorry - I don't count myself as among them.

Who is "they"? Their names are in the financial prospectus for each and every Fortune 500 company and can be readily found in the Forbes 400 as well. They are not hidden or difficult to locate. They are well protected by our elected representatives in Washington, and by the tinted glass on their fucking stretch limos.

Who is "they"? They are the same folks who are actively working every minute of the day to pump each and every last drop of oil out of the ground in order to make the gasoline and plastic bags which you and I have known most of our adult lives are causing the ecology to degrade catastrophically. I didn't do that, and to infer that I had something to do with it is insulting to me and my bank account.

Who is "they"? They are the self serving hypocritical motherfuckers who talk on TV and radios about "God" and "Family Values" and "gay marriage" and "American pride" and "homegrown energy sources" who hire hookers, cheat on their wives, fuck haitian child prostitutes and connive to get your last dime while they take their paychecks from the very companies without borders who are raping the land and sea to perdition. If you can't separate yourself from "them", look again and see who has profited by this global meltdown. It wasn't me. I've seen a hundred better ways to carry stuff around than a plastic bag, and don't gimme that convenience talk, either. None of this shit has been convenient. Not the cars, not the bags, not the crappy tuna, not the fast food, not the taxes or the wars that radiated entire middle east countries for the transnational corporations and their ennabling political stooges. They are the "they".
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Re: "Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #

Postby Brighid_Moon » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:34 am

barracuda wrote:
wintler2 wrote:I'm not sure megascale enviro problems can be slated home to any particular 'they', we've all either passively or actively contributed to many of them.

Uh uh. I don't buy that one. That's a nice way to socialize the ills of the planet while allowing the worst offenders to get off easy with their money in hand.

Who is "they"? The multi-nationals and the corrupt government officials charged with the ultimate stewardship of huge tracts of resources that are funneled into wastefull processes for the financial benefit of a select few and to the ultimate detriment of the rest of us.

Who is "they"? They are Unocal, Exxon, the tobacco companies, AT&T, the logging industry, McDonalds, the fishing industry and the politicians who keep "them" in business through graft and mendacity while the rest of us know exactly what should be done and are rendered powerless to accomplish it through the machinations of power and money that drives their heartless system. Sorry - I don't count myself as among them.

Who is "they"? Their names are in the financial prospectus for each and every Fortune 500 company and can be readily found in the Forbes 400 as well. They are not hidden or difficult to locate. They are well protected by our elected representatives in Washington, and by the tinted glass on their fucking stretch limos.

Who is "they"? They are the same folks who are actively working every minute of the day to pump each and every last drop of oil out of the ground in order to make the gasoline and plastic bags which you and I have known most of our adult lives are causing the ecology to degrade catastrophically. I didn't do that, and to infer that I had something to do with it is insulting to me and my bank account.

Who is "they"? They are the self serving hypocritical motherfuckers who talk on TV and radios about "God" and "Family Values" and "gay marriage" and "American pride" and "homegrown energy sources" who hire hookers, cheat on their wives, fuck haitian child prostitutes and connive to get your last dime while they take their paychecks from the very companies without borders who are raping the land and sea to perdition. If you can't separate yourself from "them", look again and see who has profited by this global meltdown. It wasn't me. I've seen a hundred better ways to carry stuff around than a plastic bag, and don't gimme that convenience talk, either. None of this shit has been convenient. Not the cars, not the bags, not the crappy tuna, not the fast food, not the taxes or the wars that radiated entire middle east countries for the transnational corporations and their ennabling political stooges. They are the "they".


^^ QFT.

Also, with your permission, stealing this to keep forever and ever for the next time someone asks me "who are they?" ... because I couldn't have said this better. :D
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Postby professorpan » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:15 am

Sorry, barracuda, but I strongly disagree. wintler made a very important point.

WE are THEY.

Have you ever known anyone who has worked for a defense contractor? I have. Several very nice, kind, loving friends, in fact. My mother, for a few years.

Have you ever known anyone in the military? I have. Good friends. Noble, principled, but ultimately deluded human beings. But I love them.

Investment bankers? Yep. I've known a couple of them, too. I watched the daughter of one play with my daughter at a picnic a few weeks ago.

We're all flawed human beings, and until we recognize THAT as the problem, and stop projecting outward onto nebulous "elites," we're hosed.
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Postby barracuda » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:03 am

professorpan, your small contribution to the destruction of the planet has been noted in my book, but I find it dificult to hold it too hard against you. I confess to having little sympathy for military men, defense contractors or investment bankers in the scheme of things, but I will stipulate that the vast majority of them are still middle and lower class consumers of the products which are ruining the planet. The vast majority of them have limited options from which to make their choices in this regard. And that narrowing of choices is the direct fault of the people I'm talking about. I don't like to refer to them as elites because I think they are scumbags, and there is really nothing elite about that. But they are able to make decisions which squeeze profit from the earth's resources - decisions which WE are not able to make, and which we can readily see have been made with little regard for the benefit of mankind. The decisions I am handed (paper or plastic? Fill it up? Fries with that?) obviously have been narrowed to allow for THEM to make money, not for me to have either comfort or profit, satisfaction or convenience, a clean world or a quality product.

As for resumes, I have personally worked for a defense contractor on 3D fly-throughs of Bagdad using Landsat imagery procured at inch resolution for the training of fighter pilots in simulation; I supervised a crew of ten in the construction of a ride at Disney's EPCOT center; I produced television commercials for a fortune 500 company on Sand Hill Road; and I worked for many years as an employee of the State of Illinois, doing the bidding of Big Jim Thompson, a member in good standing of the 911 commision, whom I partied with many times. Nonetheless, I subverted these situations at each and every turn, and have attempted to put the best good-will-towards-men-and-the-planet I could into these fucked-up situations through this subversion while I earned subsistence pay. The people I worked for did not have the best interests of the world around them at heart and that is ultimately what separates you and I from them. That and several millions of dollars.

Everyone is complicit, but only a few are to blame. Many are called but few are chosen. Everyone must live but few have real choices.

I am not a "they".
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Postby wintler2 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:03 am

We're all right. There are undoubtedly 'elites' that play more active and decisive roles in political, business & legal events than most even know happen. The consequences of e.g. Dick Cheneys remarkable career polluting, subverting, betraying and rorting deserve a slow hanging, and i strongly support any process to bring such parasites to meet justice. The great power that some exert makes them worth targeting, and i read with interest the reports of all posters who bother to go into detail and provide evidence on specific perpetrators and their networks.

But they only get away with it because we 'let' them, 'let' of course happening in context of pervasive disinfo and propagandising, State violence, economic coercion etc etc.

Having an incredibly sophisticated and powerful opposition should not, however, change which side one is on, nor does it remove the moral obligation to act against evil. If i buy the products of Shell Petroleum, i'm funding Shells funding for the murderous Nigerian government. Am i suggesting doing without oil, how preposterous, how could i take my place in the society into which i was born and get my share of the goodies? No blanket answer is possible, but for me it demands progressively withdrawing my support from the suicide economy.

For me to say "its not my fault cos they rule the world" is way too convenient, too pat, it ducks my individual responsibility to honour the living world that made me and the human heroes that made human society fit to live in (suffragetes, abolitionists, chartists, greenies, labor activists, seed savers, community volunteers..). There is no way i can say 'who, me?' and still feel fully alive.

The ocker in me is saying 'what a wanker', the critic 'how judgemental', really i try not to be either and don't expect others to see the world the way i do. I do trust that many of the posters on this board fight evil in the ways that make sense to them, and only wish we had the time to learn to be better allies.

Closer to topic, anyone bugged by recent RightThink lie 'global warming stopped in 1998' might be interested in
this from New Scientist. Interesting to see NS going where Real Climate and countless bloggers first tread, dismembering mainstream media deceits.
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Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:42 pm

professorpan wrote:Sorry, barracuda, but I strongly disagree. wintler made a very important point.

WE are THEY.


Bullshit. I have never had any say in any of this, neither has 99.9% of the people who post on this board.

I recognize the point you're making, but the fact remains a vanishingly small percentage of humans have vast power over everyone else. Semantics are rather beside the point.
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Re: "Ocean 'dead zones' becoming global problem" #

Postby vigilant » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:22 pm

barracuda wrote:
wintler2 wrote:I'm not sure megascale enviro problems can be slated home to any particular 'they', we've all either passively or actively contributed to many of them.

Uh uh. I don't buy that one. That's a nice way to socialize the ills of the planet while allowing the worst offenders to get off easy with their money in hand.

Who is "they"? The multi-nationals and the corrupt government officials charged with the ultimate stewardship of huge tracts of resources that are funneled into wastefull processes for the financial benefit of a select few and to the ultimate detriment of the rest of us.

Who is "they"? They are Unocal, Exxon, the tobacco companies, AT&T, the logging industry, McDonalds, the fishing industry and the politicians who keep "them" in business through graft and mendacity while the rest of us know exactly what should be done and are rendered powerless to accomplish it through the machinations of power and money that drives their heartless system. Sorry - I don't count myself as among them.

Who is "they"? Their names are in the financial prospectus for each and every Fortune 500 company and can be readily found in the Forbes 400 as well. They are not hidden or difficult to locate. They are well protected by our elected representatives in Washington, and by the tinted glass on their fucking stretch limos.

Who is "they"? They are the same folks who are actively working every minute of the day to pump each and every last drop of oil out of the ground in order to make the gasoline and plastic bags which you and I have known most of our adult lives are causing the ecology to degrade catastrophically. I didn't do that, and to infer that I had something to do with it is insulting to me and my bank account.

Who is "they"? They are the self serving hypocritical motherfuckers who talk on TV and radios about "God" and "Family Values" and "gay marriage" and "American pride" and "homegrown energy sources" who hire hookers, cheat on their wives, fuck haitian child prostitutes and connive to get your last dime while they take their paychecks from the very companies without borders who are raping the land and sea to perdition. If you can't separate yourself from "them", look again and see who has profited by this global meltdown. It wasn't me. I've seen a hundred better ways to carry stuff around than a plastic bag, and don't gimme that convenience talk, either. None of this shit has been convenient. Not the cars, not the bags, not the crappy tuna, not the fast food, not the taxes or the wars that radiated entire middle east countries for the transnational corporations and their ennabling political stooges. They are the "they".



Stands up in his chair and applauds! That is one of the best descriptions of "they" I have seen in a long time. Go ahead bro...
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Postby vigilant » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:43 pm

It's not just the captains of industry -- it's every single person who shrugs and says "fuck it, what can I do" who allows the captains of industry to continue raping and pillaging.

Uh huh, and when you try to stop the captains of industry, and the politicians that protect their ability to decide for millions of other people how waste and pollutants are dealt with, the bankers that finance it all, what happens? They make damn sure you get beat over the head with a baton, jailed, fined, etc...for civil disobedience. Now you might say, "oh but there are other ways". Really? Hmmm...people have been trying to stop these thieves and vandals for decades. Are they listening? Uhhhh...nope. Even physical means won't stop them, because they will beat you down to the ground to maintain profits. We could all bury our own feces in a hole in the ground, and lots of other things, but in the end the smoke stacks would still be spewing, and the rivers would run with chemicals. Until people that make statements like the above stop driving, stop using man made products, stop living in manufactured housing, stop talking on the phone, don't use a computer, etc...and deprive themselves of the comforts of life, this sort of talk just falls on my deaf ears.



We're all flawed human beings, and until we recognize THAT as the problem, and stop projecting outward onto nebulous "elites," we're hosed.

Wow...the captains of industry, politicians, and stewards of the land that make decisions for all of "us" absolutely love you. You are following right along in lock step with the exact same mentality they love to spread, so you won't take their profits. As long as people keep pointing the finger at themselves instead of the true decision makers they get to keep the cash, keep polluting, and the planet gets hosed. Sure we are flawed, we all are, but we use what we are given by ? to survive and do our daily business? Yes its "them"..."them" that decide for us all. We don't get a vote.
Last edited by vigilant on Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby barracuda » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:55 pm

I don't want it seem like I feel there is nothing we can do, because there is, and we know what that is:
    Live responsibly, like a real human, supposedly the highest form of life in the known universe, not like some demographic frankenstein.

    Vote with your money, and avoid the destructive products and transnationals much as you can.

    Subvert the system wherever possible: game it, cheat it, use it against itself in any small way possible. Robert Bankson.

    Join with others of like minds and goals to fight the fuckers.

    Spread the word, use your network and spread the truth to counter the lies.
Last edited by barracuda on Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby vigilant » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:06 pm

Subvert the system wherever possible: game it, cheat it, use it against itself in any small way possible. Rob banks.


Considering some of the legislation that has been passed, and the data mining, that one qualifies to get you incarcerated indefinately with no trial in sight. Might want to do some editing on that one.
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