Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:56 pm

Wow, Jack, you must be really desperate: suddenly you feel compelled to quote Xymphora as an authority to "prove" that WikiLeaks is not what it so obviously is?

Old Xymph occasionally points out interesting links and facts but (and I hope that doesn't make me sound conceited) when he and I have differences of opinion about how to interpret them I have far more confidence in my own judgment than in his. Or yours.

People will have to come to their own conclusions about the actual value of the WikiLeakers and whether they are as "explosive" as we are being told they are, about whether they appear designed justify a new war of aggression or to thwart the warmongers, to provide evidence for legal prosecutions of the worst war criminals, to strike terror into their nonexistent hearts, or to 'vindicate' them.

Don't be so gullible, even if you oh-so-badly "want to believe"; too many dogs we already know are there, just aren't barking.
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:19 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:desperate
suddenly
compelled
as an authority
to "prove"
gullible
oh-so-badly "want to believe"


strawmen
bullshit

I reserve judgement on Wikileaks and call out your faith-based tautologies.
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby nathan28 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:34 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:too many dogs we already know are there



Image
Assange, along with dozens of treacherous Jewish allies obviously hiding behind a cloud of smoke
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Nordic » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:19 pm

Montag wrote:I If all the gentiles that support the "special relationship" with Israel could have their minds changed, then the Israel lobby would be far reduced in its power.


That seems to be an extremely naive view of the situation, considering that Israel seems to be in the business of blackmailing pretty much everybody who's anybody in America, then holding their feet to the fire.

Sure, all these people will have their lives and careers destroyed for the sake of "changing their mind" about the "special relationship".

Uh, no.

And that's just their "soft" power!
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Montag » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:36 pm

Nordic wrote:
That seems to be an extremely naive view of the situation, considering that Israel seems to be in the business of blackmailing pretty much everybody who's anybody in America, then holding their feet to the fire.


What are your sources for this? I'm not aware of this at all. I'd imagine a lot of blackmail goes on against all in Congress, but I must be reading the wrong things, cause I don't hear about it.
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Nordic » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:42 pm

James Bamford, among others. I'm out of time right now, I'll have to look it up later, or you can use that as a starting point. :)
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Ben D » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:07 pm

JackRiddler wrote:.

If Bibi had declared instead that this was a terrible disaster for Israel, several of you would be pointing out what a liar he is and spinning on to the exact same invincible conclusion that everything is going according to Israeli plan.

.

But serious posters I imagine, generally confine their opinions to the here and now of what has actually been reported, not on hypothetical possible reactions of other posters to a hypothetical opposite storyline of the one they had opined on.
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:47 am

Ben D wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:.

If Bibi had declared instead that this was a terrible disaster for Israel, several of you would be pointing out what a liar he is and spinning on to the exact same invincible conclusion that everything is going according to Israeli plan.

.

But serious posters I imagine, generally confine their opinions to the here and now of what has actually been reported, not on hypothetical possible reactions of other posters to a hypothetical opposite storyline of the one they had opined on.


Serious posters don't judge everything they see against the yardstick of what they would prefer to see.
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby AlicetheKurious » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:48 am

JackRiddler wrote:Serious posters don't judge everything they see against the yardstick of what they would prefer to see.


That's not accurate or fair. The problem is not what I or anybody else would prefer to see, but what we could reasonably expect to see if Wikileaks really was what it purports to be, and what it's being marketed to be by the corporate media. All we get is a big build-up but nothing real that could lead to indictments or exposure of criminals and their methods, and certainly nothing to stop real conspiracies and cover-ups. Nothing that can save any lives. Instead, we get Israeli leaders crowing about being vindicated and all the worst lies and warmongering propaganda about their designated targets "laundered" through WikiLeaks and given a false veneer of truth.

Far from being dangerous to the lying, thieving, murderous predators who are pushing for MORE war and to those who have committed well-documented war crimes and crimes against humanity, the verdict on the WikiLeaks revelations so far is that they have "proven them right".

Is there really nothing that makes you doubt whether these WikiLeaks are a newer, more sophisticated weapon for manipulating public opinion, cleverly designed to appeal to a public that no longer trusts either official pronouncements or the corporate media, but that is still susceptible to "leaks"?
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby anothershamus » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:52 am

Zbigniew Brzezinski rears his ugly head yet again in this dogfight!

https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/zbigniew-brzezinski-who-is-really-leaking-to-wikileaks/

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Who is Really Leaking to Wikileaks?

Economic Policy Journal | November 30, 2010

Zbigniew Brzezinski doesn’t think all the leaked information coming out of Wikileaks is a result of Army PFC Bradley Manning, as a matter of fact he suspects a foreign intelligence service may be providing the more embarrassing leaks. In a PBS interview with Judy Woodruff, ZB lays out his thinking.
)'(
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby barracuda » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:38 am

AlicetheKurious wrote:Far from being dangerous to the lying, thieving, murderous predators who are pushing for MORE war and to those who have committed well-documented war crimes and crimes against humanity, the verdict on the WikiLeaks revelations so far is that they have "proven them right".


"Proven them right" about Iran, I presume you mean. Maybe this is as good a time as any to consider whether or not that actually is the case in terms of a long-range nuclear missile-bearing Iran. According to the cables, it is said that after 2010 the window for effectively stopping such a program ends. I've also read that polls show that Arabs (at the moment - these polls can be fickle) generally tend to support a nuclear Iran. What is your feeling on the prospect of the atomic Iran? Good, bad, indifferent? The answer would seem to bear directly upon whether or not WikiLeaks assumes the shape of a right-wing disinformation source to your way of thinking.
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby AlicetheKurious » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:44 am

barracuda wrote:What is your feeling on the prospect of the atomic Iran? Good, bad, indifferent? The answer would seem to bear directly upon whether or not WikiLeaks assumes the shape of a right-wing disinformation source to your way of thinking.


My feelings have nothing to do with anything. A much more relevant question is whether those who are screaming for war have presented any credible evidence that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons program and the answer is "no".

Another relevant question is whether, as a signatory to the NPT and subject to the NPT's inspection regime, Iran has the legal right to develop an independent nuclear energy capability for peaceful means and to expect other nations to assist it in doing so. The answer is "yes".

A third relevant question is whether it is outrageously hypocritical for Israel's overt and covert "allies" to target Iran, which has complied with all its obligations under the NPT and international law, while covering for the rogue, expansionist, racist and genocidal Israeli regime which not only has a massive nuclear arsenal (along with biological and chemical weapons) but has threatened to actually use it and refuses to sign the NPT or allow any inspections of its nuclear facilities. The answer is a resounding YES.

In 2003, Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history at Israel’s Hebrew University, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[19] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying "I consider it all hopeless at this point. ... We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under." Link
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby hava1 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:22 am

this is turning out to be a major political turning point, especially since the piecemeal publication will keep the agenda at the hands of Wikileaks, for quite a while.
The "spying on the UN" in itself is a huge scoop which should have rocked the boat, but apparently, it doesnt, because power is power. Haaretz sees it today, as the decline of the american empire (dont they wish, they have their eggs in germany now), others see it as a fly bite on an elephant (re the USA).

I think one of the goals in selecting Obama was indeed to shrink the Empire in favor of domestic recovery. So that's in line with the plans. This is definitely not the stated Israeli interest...
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby AlicetheKurious » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:19 am

... Wikileaks has always been a rather transparent Mighty Wurlitzer ops. It is trivial to see through the absurdity of its existence despite it promoting itself as being a sort of watchdog upon the empire, and therefore, ostensibly, being inimical to its unbridled quest for “full spectrum dominance” – just like Al Jazeera television based in Qatar, which too, absurdly enough, is permitted to function unhindered in the same nation as America's CENTCOM headquarters. Would it not be trivial for an armed to the teeth National Security State to take-out either apparatus rather trivially?

The reason each is allowed to function is of course social engineering, the sine qua non for waging modern warfare upon civilian populations by way of deception. It spans the entire gamut of engineering consent, from mantra creation in the mainstream and diabolically controlling dissent in order to control all opposition, to actually fabricating the visible pretexts which can naturally ripen the conditions for the mantra of “clash of civilizations” to be called real before the Western public in order to sustain the otherwise untenable “imperial mobilization”. Zbigniew Brzezinski had most succinctly summed this motivation in his book The Grand Chessboard – American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives: “Democracy is inimical to imperial mobilization”.

How can one tell manufactured reportage and fabricated leaks from the real stuff? How can one see through the Mighty Wurlitzer?

As daunting as it might appear to the mainstream television watcher, it is in fact rather straightforward for those unencumbered by blind faith in governments and its statecraft. Just look for the core-lies and unquestioned axioms of empire that are typically retained in the “leaks” and reportage which, in order to sound credible, often openly expose what is mostly already known anyway or judiciously employ some variation of “Limited Hangout” wrapped in a veneer of dissent or 'freedom of the press'.

It’s the exact same recipe as is used by all the other fabricated and controlled dissent assets of empire when they are not outright spinning patent lies, for spinning half-truths requires far more brilliance.
It is not for nothing that James Jesus Angleton, Head of CIA Counter Intelligence 1954-1974, is quoted in the 1992 BBC-2 Documentary on Operation Gladio: “Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the State”.

Osama bin Laden is alive and playing a key role in directing the war in Afghanistan, leaked US military files suggest.

Wikileaks Afghanistan: Osama bin Laden alive


Multiple intelligence reports on the whereabouts of the al-Qaeda leader are contained among the documents. They disclose publicly for the first time that bin Laden is thought to be personally overseeing the work of suicide bombers and the makers of Taliban roadside bombs which have had a devastating effect on British and US troops. A secret “threat report” drafted by the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) in 2006 locates bin Laden as well as the Taliban leader Mullah Omar to the Pakistani city of Quetta as well as several villages on the Afghan border. --- UK Telegraph 27 July 2010.



The core-lies retained in the Wikileaks' disclosure – which I call 'the Afghanistan Papers' – is to once again reaffirm that there is a real nemesis called “Osama Bin Laden”, that the “war on terror” is real, that it is being inflicted upon the West from Pakistan-Iran nexus, and to re-substantiate the handoff of former President George W. Bush's clairvoyance to the Obama Administration that “If another September 11 style attack is being planned, it probably is being plotted in Pakistan, and not Afghanistan”! That, when such a “planned” attack transpires, it “will make Sept. 11 pale by comparison”. See: ‘Bin Laden’: Key enabler of “imperial mobilization” and nuclear attack on Iran-Pakistan.
...

Egypt, Cairo June 4th 2009 - Obama Warns not to challenge Official 9/11 Story

'I am aware that there is still some who would question, or even justify the offense of 911.

But let us be clear. Al Qaeeda killed nearly 3000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women, and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody.

And yet Al Qaeeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale.

They have affiliates in many countries, to try to expand their reach.

These are not opinions to be debated. These are facts to be dealt with.' --- President Obama, Cairo Egypt, June 4th 2009, 911 and Imperial Mobilization Redux By Zahir Ebrahim


...

So, could these self-serving 'Afghanistan Papers' have been any more convenient as a casus belli, carrying forth the same core-lies now entering its tenth year? If Wikileaks' dramatization grabbing all the world's headlines isn't an officially sponsored “modified limited hangout” for exactly that purpose of reinforcing the core-lies, then the White House not even bothering to stop the New York Times – whose own motto is 'All the news that's fit to print' – from publishing it, even giving it “all got gold stars” as the Salon put it, is downright inexplicable:

“So, uh ... why was all of this information classified and top secret? If it's old news, and it just confirms what "everyone" already knows, what was the rationale for keeping it classified and calling WikiLeaks all sorts of mean names for publishing it?”


What would it matter afterwards, after Iran and Pakistan have been bombed, what were lies and what was truth? Did the bogus mea culpa by the 2005 Presidential Commission on intelligence failure, the Iraq Study Group's disingenuous conclusion: “We conclude that the intelligence community was dead wrong in almost all of its prewar judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. This was a major intelligence failure,” reverse the decimation of Iraq? Did the New York Times 2008 revelation of Pentagon's Message Machine after 'all the barbers in town already knew it', return back to its silos each and every cruise missile that was dropped upon the innocent civilians of Iraq?

ZERO : An Investigation Into 9/11 - PART 8 of 10, Interview with Giulietto Chiesa, Journalist - Member of the European Parliament, disclosing the fictional CSIS Imagery presented to the Commission of the European Parliament for Security and Defense, in the summer of 2005, of Mr. Osama Bin Laden claiming the fictional destruction of NATO HQ in Brussels!

'In the summer of 2005, the commission of the European parliament for security and defense, of which I am a member, was invited to a special screening created by the Washington Center for Strategic Studies

We were asked to watch a film which depicted what would happen in Europe, if Brussels was hit by a nuclear bomb. Fifty thousand deaths, hundred thousand injured. The reactions of various European governments. Suddenly, footage of Osama Bin Laden claiming responsibility for a nuclear attack on NATO headquarters comes on screen. All members of the parliament, myself included, were rendered speechless. Then a parliamentarian finally said:

Today we were shown a convincing demonstration of how Osama Bin Laden's image can be completely manipulated. All the Osama's we have seen over the years, may never have existed. Just as a nuclear attack on NATO Headquarters in Brussels has never taken place.”' --- ZERO


That is the real import of the craftsmanship of the Mighty Wurlitzer! To engineer a fait accompli by manufacturing consent among the gullible masses and dissent among the rabble rousers, leaving future scholars, historians, and the odd malcontent to ... study the ashes left behind by “history's actors”. A diabolical modus operandi of democratic statecraft which the Mighty Wurlitzer's operators even brazenly brag about: '“We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”' (Ron Suskind, New York Times, Oct. 17, 2004) Link
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Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Nordic » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:56 am

FWIW I was quite surprised by Jon Stewart's take on this last night -- he was basically saying "this is all stuff we already know -- cut out the drama". That the U.S. was, and has been, involved in coups and overthrows and nasty business all over the globe, and that nothing in Wikileaks releases was anything remotely surprising.

As my opinion of him has plummeted lately, this surprised me, he was basically saying it was just a bunch of hype over nothing.

Which has tended to be my reaction -- but then again I'm about a million times more informed than the average person out there, so when I react with a "yeah we already knew that" to one of these "revelations" I'm not quite sure it really has any meaning insofar as the media has been perhaps officially instructed to ignore it but now cannot.
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