The Strawman Illusion

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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:58 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:That depends on the "environmental" pressures.

If no one gets prosecuted for failing to stop then eventually people the behaviour could become "custom" and gain some greater standing in the eyes of the law. (Not necessarily much tho)

Tho of course if you start driving through stop signs without stopping on principle eventually other evolutionary pressures will be brought into play.

The autistic fixation with "law" is fascinating to me. There is no way to unequivocally and explicitly proscribe every rule, template, and heuristic upon which society runs. Otherwise, in principle, you could program a computer to run society. Most of what regulates us is "social convention", i.e. the unwritten, unstated rules, implicit in everyday interactions.

What is useful about the "strawman" idea is not so much its legal utility, but rather its magical utility. If you can separate yourSelf from your LEGAL FICTION, new worlds of reality creation open up.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:11 pm

nathan28 wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:The hidden admiralty law nautical language stuff is good fun.

"But of course we're all aboard that citizenSHIP again... "

I dunno. It's only slightly crazier than that the fictional legal entity of a corporation has the same rights under the constitution as a flesh and blood citizen.



The difference is that a Sup. Ct. opinion and hundreds of other courts since say corporations are legal persons. You know, that thing called "precedent", as opposed to "shit I made up for a paper I wrote for my diploma mill degree".


No disagreement. It's still only slightly crazier than that.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:31 pm

The autistic fixation with "law" is fascinating to me.

Laws a pretty fundamental human thing. We've been using it for 30 or 40 thousand years.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:34 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:The autistic fixation with "law" is fascinating to me.

Laws a pretty fundamental human thing. We've been using it for 30 or 40 thousand years.

What I mean is the specific idea that if there is no written law about something, then society has nothing to say about it. Anybody with a modicum of social awareness knows that nothing could be further from the truth. The written law is, at best, a rough approximation to the totality of social regulation, and, at worst, an instrument of the powerful against the weak.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:53 pm

slomo wrote:
Joe Hillshoist wrote:The autistic fixation with "law" is fascinating to me.

Laws a pretty fundamental human thing. We've been using it for 30 or 40 thousand years.

What I mean is the specific idea that if there is no written law about something, then society has nothing to say about it. Anybody with a modicum of social awareness knows that nothing could be further from the truth. The written law is, at best, a rough approximation to the totality of social regulation, and, at worst, an instrument of the powerful against the weak.


The written law certainly is.

Sorry I'm in the middle of an online argument about this right now. I'm really not up to going on about it.

The law is concerned with rights, responsibilities and the enforcement of or protection of those rights and responsibilities. Thats basically it.

There is a lot more to any society than that.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:59 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
slomo wrote:
Joe Hillshoist wrote:The autistic fixation with "law" is fascinating to me.

Laws a pretty fundamental human thing. We've been using it for 30 or 40 thousand years.

What I mean is the specific idea that if there is no written law about something, then society has nothing to say about it. Anybody with a modicum of social awareness knows that nothing could be further from the truth. The written law is, at best, a rough approximation to the totality of social regulation, and, at worst, an instrument of the powerful against the weak.


The written law certainly is.

Sorry I'm in the middle of an online argument about this right now. I'm really not up to going on about it.

The law is concerned with rights, responsibilities and the enforcement of or protection of those rights and responsibilities. Thats basically it.

There is a lot more to any society than that.

I don't disagree with that. However, for "freemen" to concoct a ridiculous argument about not needing to pay income tax because there is no law explicitly allowing it is kind of insane. I mean, it would be great if the argument stuck, but good luck to you when the IRS shows up at your doorstep.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:58 pm

Yeah true slomo.


nathan28 wrote:The difference is that a Sup. Ct. opinion and hundreds of other courts since say corporations are legal persons. You know, that thing called "precedent", as opposed to "shit I made up for a paper I wrote for my diploma mill degree".


I get your point, but lets face it the SCOTUS only gets its authority from recognition.

It doesn't actually make any of decisions sane, or correct or even remotely reasonable, automatically.

It takes everything that goes with the SC to make what it says have meaning, including, ultimately, people with guns to enforce it. (Maybe thats what you were getting at anyway?)

Cos that is a big difference.

I mean the SC can make a ruling but that ruling is impotent if the rest of the arrapatus of govt (including the people who are just as much a part of it*) ignores it.


*That has 2 meanings, the peoples active participation in democracy, and their decision to submit their personal sovereignty to that of the state.

Which is kind of what the OP seems to be getting at.


But basically - its like weed in Amsterdam, it works cos the cops ignore it.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:11 pm

So since I posted this, the volume to my inbox has only increased. This shit is REALLY catching on with the hip hop demographic. I don't even have the energy to deal with them, I just encourage 'em to go for it. This is a very pernicious meme and I don't think this "crazy-making" script is going to fade out quietly.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby vanlose kid » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:40 am

not that i think my weighing in here will make much of a difference, i'll do so anyway.

the freeman movement as preseneted by the MSM (and to an extent in their own words (a number of them)) seem to consist of kooks and gun mad hatters, but ... as far as i'm concerned, there's a there there.

their concern with the distinction between common law and corporate (admiralty) law/statutes does have some merit.

here are some outtakes from an old thread discussing one aspect of this, i.e. the "runaway jury". (nb! this is from the old board so i had to excise code and the formatting is gone):

sunny wrote:chigger, as much as I admire Fitz, I don't think he would inform the jurors of these rights. Why? Because he's a prosecutor and would not like to lose control of the process. If someone were trying to pull the rug out from under him, he would simply go about trying to rectify the situation through conventional channels.Even if there were a runaway gj, remember the gj in the JonBenet Ramsey case? We never did get an answer as to whether they actually did indict one of the Ramseys. They may have and the prosecutor chose to ignore it. What if the Fitz gj returned an indictment he, or Abu Gonzales, didn't like?

**********************************************

http://www.larryflynt.com/notebook.php?id=91

The prosecution saw it differently?

McKINLEY: They sure did. They sealed our indictment</strong>and said, "We're not going to do that." That scene is described in the book, which is where we got the title The Ambushed Grand Jury. The instructions state that in open court, after deliberations, the grand jury will hand its indictment to the prosecutor, and he shall sign it. Well, we handed it to him, and he refused to sign our indictment.

Is there some legal loophole that allows a prosecutor to ignore a grand jury's indictment?

McKINLEY: We're not sure. There are some legal issues in play here that really haven't been tested yet.(emphasis mine)

**********************************************

I cannot as of yet find legal citations on prosecutors being able to ignore indictments, but I'm working on it. Not saying this is what happened, but obviously there is precedent, regardless of whether it's legal.


to which antiaristo replies:

Good ol' Citizen Spook made a post about this very subject

As an aside, this caught my eye

[vk: CitizenSpook]They were common in the 19th century but have become rare since then.


Do you know from where you got your grand jury system?

You got them from England.

They were a traditional part of the English legal system.

Until the The CROWN supplanted the grand jury.

It was replaced by the CROWN Prosecution Service.

Decisions that until the 1930's were made by representatives of the commom people, are now made by appointees of the Crown.

Just one more example of how the Treason Felony Act has been used to progressively stifle democracy in England.

The Crown Prosecution Service SUCKS.


*

here's the full blogpost by Citizenspook (with someembedded links) that antiaristo cited and linked:

Sunday, August 14, 2005
TREASONGATE: The Federal Grand Jury, FOURTH BRANCH of the US Government

If Patrick Fitzgerald is somehow illegally removed as Special Counsel in the Treasongate proceedings, the grand jury(s) he has impaneled will serve at the mercy of Fitzgerald's replacement, an individual who will have been brought in to shield the Bush administration from criminal prosecution for its many treasons. If that grand jury is aware of their true Constitutional power, it's possible they might stand up, fight, and win a legal battle that is long overdue.

Furthermore, all of us may one day serve as grand jurors in federal court, and I hope this article will educate the reader to his/her true power as granted by the Constitution. For that power, despite having been hidden for many years behind the veil of a legislative fraud, still exists in all of its glory in the 5th Amendment to the Constitution. The US Supreme Court has confirmed and reinforced that power.

So please, copy this report and paste it far and wide. It is not spin. It is not false. It is not for sale, it is not copyrighted by me, so paste and quote it freely. This report is the truth and we need truth, now, more than ever.

The Constitutional power of "we the people" sitting as grand jurors has been subverted by a deceptive play on words since 1946 when the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure were enacted. Regardless, the power I am going to explain to you still exists in the Constitution, and has been upheld by the United States Supreme Court despite the intention of the legislature and other legal scholars to make our power disappear with a cheap magic trick.

Repeat a lie with force and repetition and the lie becomes known as truth. In the case of the 5th Amendment to the Constitution, the power of the grand jury, to return "presentments" on its own proactive initiation, without reliance upon a US Attorney to concur in such criminal charges, has been usurped by an insidious play on words.

Most of this article is going to quote other scholars, judges and legislators as I piece together a brief but thorough history of the federal grand jury for your review. But the punch line is my personal contribution to the cause:


UNITED STATES CITIZENS SITTING AS FEDERAL GRAND JURORS ARE THE FOURTH BRANCH OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

My input into this vital fight is no more than the analysis of a few carefully used words. It only took a small sleight of pen back in 1946 to hide our power, and it won't take more than a few words to take that power back. But a proper overview is necessary for most of you who are unfamiliar with the issue at hand. So let me provide you with some history and then we'll see what went wrong and how to correct it.

HISTORY OF FEDERAL GRAND JURY POWER

I want to draw your attention to a law review article, CREIGHTON LAW REVIEW, Vol. 33, No. 4 1999-2000, 821, IF IT'S NOT A RUNAWAY, IT'S NOT A REAL GRAND JURY by Roger Roots, J.D.

"In addition to its traditional role of screening criminal cases for prosecution, common law grand juries had the power to exclude prosecutors from their presence at any time and to investigate public officials without governmental influence. These fundamental powers allowed grand juries to serve a vital function of oversight upon the government. The function of a grand jury to ferret out government corruption was the primary purpose of the grand jury system in ages past."

The 5th Amendment:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury."

An article appearing in [url]American Juror[/url], the newsletter of the American Jury Institute and the Fully Informed Jury Association, citing the famed American jurist, Joseph Story, explained :

"An indictment is a written accusation of an offence preferred to, and presented, upon oath, as true, by a grand jury, at the suit of the government. An indictment is framed by the officers of the government, and laid before the grand jury. Presentments, on the other hand, are the result of a jury’s independent action:

'A presentment, properly speaking, is an accusation, made by a grand jury of its own mere motion, of an offence upon its own observation and knowledge, or upon evidence before it, and without any bill of indictment laid before it at the suit of the government. Upon a presentment, the proper officer of the court must frame an indictment, before the party accused can be put to answer it.' "


Back to the Creighton Law Review:

"A 'runaway' grand jury, loosely defined as a grand jury which resists the accusatory choices of a government prosecutor, has been virtually eliminated by modern criminal procedure. Today's "runaway" grand jury is in fact the common law grand jury of the past. Prior to the emergence of governmental prosecution as the standard model of American criminal justice, all grand juries were in fact "runaways," according to the definition of modern times; they operated as completely independent, self-directing bodies of inquisitors, with power to pursue unlawful conduct to its very source, including the government itself."

So, it's clear that the Constitution intended to give the grand jury power to instigate criminal charges, and this was especially true when it came to government oversight. But something strange happened on the way to the present. That power was eroded by a lie enacted by the legislative branch. The 5th Amendment to the Constitution still contains the same words quoted above, but if you sit on a grand jury and return a "presentment" today, the prosecutor must sign it or it probably won't be allowed to stand by the judge and the criminal charges you have brought to the court's attention will be swept away. And the reason for this can be found in a legislative lie of epic proportions.

Mr. Roots weighs in again:

"In 1946, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure were adopted, codifying what had previously been a vastly divergent set of common law procedural rules and regional customs.[86] In general, an effort was made to conform the rules to the contemporary state of federal criminal practice.[87] In the area of federal grand jury practice, however, a remarkable exception was allowed. The drafters of Rules 6 and 7, which loosely govern federal grand juries, denied future generations of what had been the well-recognized powers of common law grand juries: powers of unrestrained investigation and of independent declaration of findings. The committee that drafted the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure provided no outlet for any document other than a prosecutor-signed indictment. In so doing, the drafters at least tacitly, if not affirmatively, opted to ignore explicit constitutional language."[88]"

Rule 7 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure (FRCP):

"An offense which may be punished by death shall be prosecuted by indictment. An offense which may be punished by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year or at hard labor shall be prosecuted by indictment..."

No mention of "presentments" can be found in Rule 7. But they are mentioned in Note 4 of the Advisory Committee Notes on the Rules:

"4. Presentment is not included as an additional type of formal accusation, since presentments as a method of instituting prosecutions are obsolete, at least as concerns the Federal courts."

The American Juror published the following commentary with regards to Note 4:

"[W]hile the writers of the federal rules made provisions for indictments, they made none for presentments. This was no oversight. According to Professor Lester B. Orfield, a member of the Advisory Committee on Rules of Criminal Procedure, the drafters of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure Rule 6 decided the term presentment should not be used, even though it appears in the Constitution. Orfield states [22 F.R.D. 343, 346]:

'There was an annotation by the Reporter on the term presentment as used in the Fifth Amendment. It was his conclusion that the term should not be used in the new rules of criminal procedure. Retention might encourage the use of the run-away grand jury as the grand jury could act from their own knowledge or observation and not only from charges made by the United States attorney. It has become the practice for the United States Attorney to attend grand jury hearings, hence the use of presentments have been abandoned.' "


That's a fascinating statement: "Retention might encourage...the grand jury [to] act from their own knowledge or observation." God forbid, right America? The nerve of these people. They have the nerve to put on the record that they intended to usurp our Constitutional power, power that was intended by the founding fathers, in their incredible wisdom, to provide us with oversight over tyrannical government.

And so they needed a spin term to cast aspersions on that power. The term they chose was, "runaway grand jury", which is nothing more than a Constitutionally mandated grand jury, aware of their power, and legally exercising that power to hold the federal beast in check, as in "checks and balances".

The lie couldn't be inserted into the Constitution, so they put it in a statute and then repeated it. And scholars went on to repeat it, and today, as it stands, the grand jury has effectively been lied into the role of submissive puppet of the US Attorney.

The American Juror publication included a very relevant commentary:

"Of course, no statute or rule can alter the provisions of the Constitution, since it is the supreme law of the land. But that didn’t prevent the federal courts from publishing a body of case law affirming the fallacy that presentments were abolished. A particularly egregious example:

'A rule that would permit anyone to communicate with a grand jury without the supervision or screening of the prosecutor or the court would compromise, if not utterly subvert, both of the historic functions of the grand jury, for it would facilitate the pursuit of vendettas and the gratification of private malice. A rule that would open the grand jury to the public without judicial or prosecutorial intervention is an invitation to anyone interested in trying to persuade a majority of the grand jury, by hook or by crook, to conduct investigations that a prosecutor has determined to be inappropriate or unavailing.'
[7]

What is the result? Investigating seditious acts of government officials can be deemed inappropriate or unavailing by the prosecutor, or the judge can dismiss the grand jurors pursuing such investigations. Consequently, corrupt government officials have few natural enemies and go about their seditious business unimpeded.

By the way, they made a rule to take care of runaways too, in 1946: Rule 6(g):

'At any time for cause shown the court may excuse a juror either temporarily or
permanently, and in the latter event the court may impanel another person in place of the juror excused.' Now judges can throw anyone off a grand jury, or even disimpanel a grand jury entirely, merely for exercising its discretion."


Now let me add my two cents to this argument:

Most of the discussion about Note 4 to Rule 7 of the FRCP takes for granted that the common law use of "presentments" (as codified in the 5th Amendment) was made "illegal" in 1946 by this act. Nothing could be more false. Note 4 does not contain language that makes the use of presentments "illegal", although it had chosen its words carefully to make it appear as if that is what the legislative branch intended. But let's look at Note 4 again:

"4. Presentment is not included as an additional type of formal accusation, since presentments as a method of instituting prosecutions are obsolete, at least as concerns the Federal courts."

The key word is, "obsolete". Obsolete means "outmoded", or "not in use anymore", but it does not mean "abolished" or "illegal". And therein lies the big lie. The legislature knew it could not directly overrule the Constitution, especially with something so clearly worded as the 5th Amendment, which grants a power to the people which has a long and noble purpose in criminal jurisprudence. But the federal beast legislative branch sought more power to protect themselves from the oversight of "we the people", and in its vampire like thirst for more governmental control, it inserted this insidious Note 4 in the hope that scholars and judges would play along with their ruse, or in the alternative, their ruse would appear to be legally viable.

Let's look at some authoritative legal resources which discuss Note 4:

Susan Brenner, THE VOICE OF THE COMMUNITY: A CASE FOR GRAND JURY INDEPENDENCE:

"Finally, federal grand juries' subservience to prosecutors was exacerbated when the federal system eliminated the use of presentments, which allowed a grand jury to bring charges on its own initiative. (N35) Now, federal grand jurors cannot return charges in the form of an indictment without a prosecutor's consent. (N36) Elimination of the presentment demonstrates the historical trend towards elimination of proactive features in the grand jury system."

Did Brenner fall for the lie or did she cleverly further it when she said, "[T]he federal system eliminated the use of presentments"? The federal system did no such thing. Note 4 said the use of presentments was "obsolete". First of all, Note 4 is not a law in itself. It is a Note to a law, and the law as written, does not have anything to say about presentments. You see the leap Brenner has made? The Constitution provides for "presentments", then the FRCP are enacted and the Rules therein do not mention presentments, nor due they ban presentments, and if they did, such a ban would be unconstitutional, since an administrative enactment regarding procedure can not overrule the Constitution.

Regardless, it's irrelevant, since the FRCP does not mention "presentments". Note 4 simply states that "presentments" allowed for in the 5th Amendment of the Constitution have become "obsolete", or outmoded, which is not to say that they were "eliminated". Shame on you Susan Brenner. You know damn well that the Constitution can only be changed by an official Amendment to it. Nothing can be "eliminated" from the Constitution by an administrative note.

The use of presentments had become obsolete because the grand jurors were not aware of their power. So the use of "presentments" became more and more rare, and then in 1946 the legislative branch seized upon the moment to make this power disappear by waving its magic wand over the Constitution.

Mr. Root got it wrong in the Creighton Law Review as well:

"Before the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure — which made independently-acting grand juries illegal for all practical purposes — grand juries were understood to have broad powers to operate at direct odds with both judges and prosecutors..."

The FRCP did not make it "illegal for all practical purposes". That's patently false. I don't know if Mr. Root, and/or Susan Brenner, were acting as the magician's assistant, but I can't imagine how these educated scholars could be so incredibly ignorant of basic Constitutional law. Give me a damn break.

But if enough people repeat the lie, the lie appears to be the truth.

But we have it on good authority, the Supreme Court, that the lie has no legal effect.

Justice Powell, in United States v. Calandra, 414 U.S. 338, 343 (1974), stated:

"The institution of the grand jury is deeply rooted in Anglo-American history. [n3] In England, the grand jury [p343] served for centuries both as a body of accusers sworn to discover and present for trial persons suspected of criminal wrongdoing and as a protector of citizens against arbitrary and oppressive governmental action. In this country, the Founders thought the grand jury so essential to basic liberties that they provided in the Fifth Amendment that federal prosecution for serious crimes can only be instituted by "a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury." Cf. Costello v. United States, 350 U.S. 359, 361-362 (1956). The grand jury's historic functions survive to this day. Its responsibilities continue to include both the determination whether there is probable cause to believe a crime has been committed and the protection of citizens against unfounded criminal prosecutions. Branzburg v. Hayes, 408 U.S. 665, 686-687 (1972)."

The Note 4 lie is smashed on the SCOTUS altar, "The grand jury's historic functions survive to this day." Take that Note 4!

The wonderful irony of the situation concerns the ultimate neocon Justice, one known as Antonin Scalia, who effectively codified the unique independent power of the Fourth Branch into the hands of all citizens sitting as federal grand jurors. In discussing that power and unique independence granted to the grand jury, the United States Supreme Court, in United States v. Williams, 504 U.S. 36 at 48 (1992), Justice Scalia, delivering the opinion of the court, laid down the law of the land:

"'[R]ooted in long centuries of Anglo-American history," Hannah v. Larche, 363 U.S. 420, 490 (1960) (Frankfurter, J., concurring in result), the grand jury is mentioned in the Bill of Rights, but not in the body of the Constitution. It has not been textually assigned, therefore, to any of the branches described in the first three Articles. It "`is a constitutional fixture in its own right.'" United States v. Chanen, 549 F.2d 1306, 1312 (CA9 1977) (quoting Nixon v. Sirica, 159 U.S. App. D.C. 58, 70, n. 54, 487 F.2d 700, 712, n. 54 (1973)), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 825 (1977). ' "

I submit to you that this passage sets the stage for a revolutionary knew context necessary and Constitutionally mandated to "we the people", THE FOURTH BRANCH of the Government of the United States. Besides, the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches, I submit that there is a fourth branch, THE GRAND JURY, and "we the people" when sitting as grand jurors, are, as Scalia quoted in US v. Williams, " a constitutional fixture in its own right". Yes, damn it. That is exactly what the grand jury is, and what it was always intended to be.

Scalia also stated, that "the grand jury is an institution separate from the courts, over whose functioning the courts do not preside..."
Id.

And finally, to seal the deal, Scalia hammered the point home:

"In fact, the whole theory of its function is that it belongs to no branch of the institutional Government, serving as a kind of buffer or referee between the Government and the people. See Stirone v. United States, 361 U.S. 212, 218 (1960); Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43, 61 (1906); G. Edwards, The Grand Jury 28-32 (1906). Although the grand jury normally operates, of course, in the courthouse and under judicial auspices, its institutional relationship with the Judicial Branch has traditionally been, so to speak, at arm's length. Judges' direct involvement in the functioning of the grand jury has generally been confined to the constitutive one of calling the grand jurors together and administering their oaths of office. See United States v. Calandra, 414 U.S. 338, 343 (1974); Fed.Rule Crim.Proc. 6(a). [504 U.S. 36, 48] "

This miraculous quote says it all, "...the whole theory of its function is that it belongs to no branch of the institutional Government, serving as a kind of buffer or referee between the Government and the people." The Constitution of the United States, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, gives rise to a FOURTH BRANCH of Government, THE GRAND JURY. We the people have been charged with oversight of the government in our roles as grand jurors.

And at this critical time in American history, we must, for the protection of our constitutional republic, take back our power and start acting as powerful as the other branches of government.

The law is on our side. So please spread this knowledge as far and wide as you can. We the people have the right and power under the 5th Amendment of the Constitution to charge this government with crimes by returning presentments regardless of whether the US Attorneys or the federal judges agree with us. As the Supreme Court has so brilliantly stated, we are the "buffer between the Government and the people."

Take the reins America. Pass it on. The Fourth Branch is alive and kickin'.


by Citizen Spook

PLEASE REPOST and LINK

citizenspook@hotmail.com

http://citizenspook.blogspot.com/2005/0 ... ourth.html


*

so, yeah, there's a there there, and it's well worth looking into. i think.

how the MSM portrays the freeman movement (as they've been gaining ground) may just be a way of covering the issues in kook.

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:38 pm

^^Sure, but "The Strawman Illusion" --- that's not MSM. The emails I'm getting from fucking rappers and promoters, those aren't MSM. And not once has the phrase "Grand Jury" come up in any of that material. I think the meme has a life entirely of it's own and I don't think it's on any solid legal ground.

I would like to be wrong, but I also suspect it would be easier to find a single proof of concept if I was.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby madeupname452 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:01 pm

The origins of the strawman scam can be traced back to when the state decided that it would be useful to declare everyone dead.Here is an article lifted from
http://captainranty.blogspot.com/2010/12/are-you-still-dead.html
Are you still dead?
I think that once you understand that you are dead, and what that means legally, and crucially, what you can do to turn this to your advantage, you are on the road to controlling them, instead of them controlling you.

Unam Sanctam (issued in 1302) was indeed a terrifying papal bull and it started everything. Understand that, and the scales will fall from your eyes. You are a slave. Of that there is no doubt. This papal bull explains why.

Owning us body and soul was not enough for them though. They also needed a way of extracting our money. They are spectacularly good at this. We, on the other hand, are spectacularly bad at saying no in a way that they hear the word, and the reason for us saying it.

I have read the Cestui Que Vie Act (1666) which was given Royal Assent by Charles II, but I was unaware that there was an earlier version enacted in 1540 by Henry VIII. It all makes more sense when I realised that the church was involved and that the Act concerns souls "lost beyond the See", not "souls lost beyond the sea". The misinterpretation is understandable when you know that the CQV Act was written entirely in French despite the fact that we had switched to english 300 years earlier. It was written just after the Great Plague of 1665 and during the Great Fire of London in 1666. Given the prevailing circumstances, this legislation was rammed through the system in record time. Indecently hasty, some would say. We should realise why this was done so rapidly in a foreign language. It was a con. It was a scam that affected us all, for millenia. It is not an archaic piece of parchment locked away in a dusty cellar in Westminster. It lives today. It is used today. Think of the UK as a computer and CQV as its operating system. We were never supposed to understand its importance in our lives. We are supposed to continue in ignorance, forever.

It would be better (for you) if I stepped aside and handed over to Mary Croft. Mary is a leading light in the Freeman/Sovereign movement and helped thousands of us to comprehend the nature and scale of the deception from a commercial viewpoint. Spend some time at her site and you will learn much. Mary has a way of explaining things simply. Do click your way over there and read the whole thing.No doubt it will bring questions but I would urge you to ask Mary, not me. I am a worm in comparison. Her knowledge is prodigious.

Here are a couple of paragraphs but they do not do the article justice. It flows beautifully and deserves to be read whole, with a pot of tea or coffee somewhere nearby.

Look:

"Since common law courts no longer exist, we know that the case never has anything to do with “facts” or live men and women and so, anyone who testifies (talks about the facts of the case) is doomed. ALL courts operate in trust law, based upon ecclesiastical canon law–– ritualism, superstition, satanism, etc.––which manifests as insidious, commercial law and we are in court to take the hit, if they can get us to do so. They use every trick in the book––intimidation, fear, threat, ridicule, rage, and even recesses, in order to change the jurisdiction, when they know they are losing, in order to make us admit that we are the name of the trust. When we do so, we are deemed to be the trustee––the one liable for administering the trust. Ergo, until now, it has been a waste of our time, energy, and emotion to go to a place where it is almost certain that we will be stuck with the liability.

We all know from our indoctrination, programming, and schooling that judges are impartial and have sworn an oath to this effect. This means he must not favour either plaintiff or defendant. But, our experience reveals that he does, indeed, favour the plaintiff, indicating a glaring conflict of interest––that the prosecutor, judge, and clerk all work for the state––the owner of the CQV trust. So, as the case is NOT about “justice”, it must be about the administration of a trust. They all represent the trust owned by the state and, if we are beneficiary, the only two positions left are Trustee and Executor. So, if you detect the judge’s partiality, although I doubt the case will get this far, you might just want to let them know that you know this."

The courts treat us with derision because we simply do not know that we are dead. They cannot deal with us as humans. They even call us "imbeciles" and "monsters" in their law dictionaries. The trick, (and Mary explains it), is to deal with the judge on his/her terms. Otherwise we are speaking Mandarin badly, with a Nigerian accent that sounds like Serbo-Croat, and all they hear, unsurprisingly, is noise. Learn the lingo and you will not be parting with your money, or in some cases, your liberty. Learn about Trusts from Mary, and you will discover how to switch the liability from you, to the judge. Once you have succeeded in placing the onus back on the judge the next two words you are likely to hear are "Case dismissed!".
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:10 pm

^^OK -- which case was dismissed? I'm just look for real world examples. Even just one.

Citing stuff that happened before the United States existed makes this seem like an exercise in history instead of an actual path to making changes.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby madeupname452 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:15 pm

the strawman/freeman issue is one thing but the issue of Lawful Rebellion is a whole other can of worms. In brief ,Queen Elizabeth has broken her coronation oath to the the people of the United Kingdom .The 'prerogative power' is given to the monarch by the PEOPLE, under the Bill of Rights of 1689 and Magna Carta. The monarch agrees to protect our laws and customs under the Coronation Oath and the Constitution. Failure do so is TREASON against the people.
http://captainranty.blogspot.com/2010/10/council-tax-and-lawful-rebellion.html
Chapter 61 of Magna Carta covers the subject’s right to appeal to a committee of 25 Barons for redress against a tyrant. After several hundred thousand individuals sent postcards to The Queen in 1999 urging her not to agree to the Nice Treaty, 65 Peers selected a quorum of 25 of their number to form such a committee. They were satisfied that the conditions required to justify the use of the procedure specified in Ch. 61 of Magna Carta 1215 were established.

Four of their number served the petition on Her Majesty on 7th February 2001 insisting that she should:

* withhold the Royal Assent from any Parliamentary Bill which attempts to ratify the Treaty of Nice unless and until the people of the UK have given clear and specific approval;
* uphold and preserve the rights, freedoms and customs of your loyal subjects as set out in Magna Carta and the Declaration of Right, which you, our Sovereign, swore before the nation to uphold and preserve in your Coronation Oath of June 1953

These things she has conspicuously failed to do. The service of the Barons Petition was reported in the Daily Telegraph on the 7th February 2001. As a consequence of her failure to comply, all loyal subjects are required to “ together with the community of the whole realm, distrain and distress us in all possible ways, namely, by seizing our castles, lands, possessions, and in any other way they can, until redress has been obtained as they deem fit,...”.

Magna Carta was, of course, a peace treaty not a statute. Breaches of a treaty give the aggrieved party the right of redress. That means us, the people.



http://captainranty.blogspot.com/2010/05/amazing-mrs-elizabeth-beckett.html
As far as the American Constitution is concerned, Jefferson and co made a Masonic Constitution, but they did not wipe out the existing British Constitution on which the colonies had lived for two hundred years. This is the basis of your law and customs

The English Constitution includes:

1). Magna Carta, (which the Supreme Court used for the release of the people in Guantanamo Bay)

2). The Petition of Right 1627

3). The Bill of Rights of 1689

4). The 1700 Act of Settlement

These legal statutes were made by the people from whom the colonies are descended, only rubber stamped by British Parliament, (governing the colonies at the time) until independence. It is the basis of your Law and your Constitution. The United States Constitution is subject to the British Constitution.

The only elements of the US Constitution that differ from the British Constitution is the royal prerogative and Christianity. The prerogative can exceptionally be used by the President, but is not part of the law as it is with us in the UK. However, the people of the USA cannot rely on the 'prerogative', all they can do is find the relevant phrases that can fight orders. These can be found in the Bill of Rights 1689 and chapter 29 of Magna Carta.
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby madeupname452 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:21 pm

^^OK -- which case was dismissed? I'm just look for real world examples. Even just one.

Citing stuff that happened before the United States existed makes this seem like an exercise in history instead of an actual path to making changes.


I have read cases of people challenging parking fines,council tax and income tax , but this is all I have found for you on a quick search
http://www.lawfulrebellion.org/2010/04/14/non-payment-of-council-tax/
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Re: The Strawman Illusion

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:24 pm

This kind of legal skullduggery just seems hugely naive. Why do you insist on playing by their rules? That entire game is designed to be 100% leveraged against you, and you're poring through obscure legalese from centuries ago -- for what? To find a magical cheat code? I am just baffled by this entire movement.

If anyone could demonstrate results, I would be a lot less baffled. Until then, this is just a weird hobby and a remarkably sad example of wishful thinking at work.

Like I said, I grew up around militia guys in the 80s, and they all tried this same shit here in the US and got the same results: huge fines and often jail time. If they'd just skipped all the reading, all the declarations in court, all the complicated arguments, they would have gotten the exact same results: huge fines and often jail time.

I think our efforts are much better focused on the classic strategy of Not Getting Caught.

Edit: Also, considering you're on here furnishing links and articles to advocate this, I find it hugely troubling that you're just now doing a quick web search to locate actual success stories. Is this really the first time that question has come up in your studies?
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