What constitutes Misogyny?

[wintler2]

I was trying to point out that c_w's implicit assumption that any father's rights activity would probably be tainted by manipulation by abusers, rather than being an autochthonous reaction to injustice by fathers who have suffered that injustice, was unsound and objectionable. I chose to illustrate this with an analogous statement which I believed c_w would find equally objectionable, the suggestion that rape victims should only be recognised with a caveat about the presence of liars in their midst.
...

Perhaps i misinterpreted you re spin, but i can't see your statement as analogous to [how you describe] c_w's. And i still think your admit-no-fault advocacy "doth protest too much" to be constructive.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Bullshit. You're just looking for an excuse to justify female privelege.

No I'm not. It might appear to be privilege when one group is given a consideration they weren't previously shown, but its not a privilege its a recognition that there was previously a privilege that disadvantaged that group. When I was a kid things were very different to now.

I'm not feeling a lot of benefit, and I'm guessing your wrongly persecuted friends weren't either.

No but the system functioned and in two cases a dair result was achieved. The third is still unfolding.

Much as a longsuffering tolerance might seem admirable, the ultimate virtue is in removing injustice not just saying "thankyou sir, may I have another".

Its not an injustice till an injust outcome comes along. The outcomes I have seen have actually been just. It m,ay have been a "fight" to achieve that justice - to me thats what being male is about in many ways, well its a part of it. (Tho its not unique to men.) Its a hassle but its not an injustice unless you let it happen.

We should just suck it up and stop the whinging cos when it comes down to it we still have plenty of power and advantage. Its stupid to assume otherwise.

It's stupid to make absurd assertions without a basis in fact, but you're doing that.

No I'm not. Have a look around ffs.

And its childish to think its actually unfair to us cos really it isn't.

I'll just have to be childish, then. You know, 'cos I think injustice is unfair and that's the sort of juvenile thought civilised people don't have.

What injustice? These situations resolved fairly imo, tho at the time the guys felt unfairly harassed. They didn't feel that way about the outcomes.

* I hadn't really thought about it till this comment but that seeming disadvantage that isn't really one at all is possibly what C2W refers to when she talks about what every female in our culture has to grow up with.

So you aren't, in fact, conceeding any unfair advantage for women in any part of the current court system?

Not really no. It just seems that way cos guys don't have it all their own way anymore.

IE The system is fair(er). Once it was claimed to be fair but wasn't. In many cases (rape for example) it isn't. Tho i suspect the rape example applies to victims of either gender.

[Hammer of Los]

I never tire of banging my head against a brick wall and getting called a misogynist, it really lights up my day. If only someone were to call me a child molester I fear I may have to propose marriage.

You do rather make me laugh.

I think you deserve some credit for remaining cool, sticking to the facts, and presenting your arguments clearly.

I don't think you are the village idiot, Stephen, I rather think you are an asset to the board.

Speaking for me personally, I always appreciate informational diversity. Which is to say, I don't always agree with you.

It's nice to agree, but it's also nice to hear other perspectives. All are valid.

If Stephen's ideas are skewed towards a certain perspective, you can be sure that mine and yours are too. It does a human good to bear that in mind.

But Stephen, I would kindly submit that you consider the following words, imagining that you are the speaker, and have that speaker's familiarity and personal experience to back you up;

Statistics for rape, and false accusations of rape are seriously skewed by a legal system which makes it very difficult to get convictions, or as one criminal lawyer stated on a BBC prog. very easy to get the accused off. It does start in the police station, where the unsympathetic treatment is often 'justified' by the fact that if a prosecution is brought the victim will need to be extremely tough to take what the defense throws her way. This leads to an enthusiasm to no crime the crime at the police report stage, saving them a lot of paperwork and investigation time. According to the lawyer mentioned above, a standard technique is to make the victim out to be a liar, which is very easy, by questioning and then inflating any difference between her story and the original report made to the police. Having found a difference, the defense then pounces 'so you lied?'. As traumatised victims rarely recall everything in exact detail all at once, this is easy. These tactics can reappear in child abuse cases held in camera. Its not unknown for judges to find (ie order) that the alleged assaults did not take place despite the testimony of the child and supporting medical evidence.

[Canadian_watcher]

In other words, although the law allowed sex with ones wife regardless of whether she consented or not (technically her consent was judged to have been granted permanently on marriage, but without proper consent) and therefore rape of a wife was deemed not to be a possibility under the law, the use of violence against one's wife was still forbidden. Therefore an actual rape, which I believe usually involves violence beyond the violence inherent in any sexual violation (and certainly would have done before the possibility of drugging, in an early-modern household) could, in fact, be prosecuted, but not, as your source quite rightly says, as rape within marriage, merely as a common assault.

I feel sorry for you, Stephen.

[annie aronburg]

Haha. One thing me and my GF do when we're in good enough moods to fuck with people is go into swanky boutiques, Victoria's Secrets and shit and pretend like I'm "taking my lady on a shopping spree".

Me: (walking up to clerk/salesperson with GF behind me acting obedient) Uh, yeah do you guys have anything that can fit her? (my GF is a "little heavy")

Clerk: (eyes open wide in surprise) Of course we do.

Then she takes us around and shows us a bunch of shit we're not gonna buy in a hundred years anyways. Then we leave and laugh our asses off.

We do the same thing at jewelry stores. We walk in, looking all white trash and I loudly say, "Alright, pick something out and let's get the fuck out of here. I'm sick of shopping" Or we find the most stupid, heinous silver deer with diamonds and emeralds on it and begin to ask questions.

Also swanky restaurants are really fun to have fake fights in about shit that never happened.

Trolling low-wage female workers at "swanky" Vicotria's Secret for entertainment? That's something to brag about? In a thread about misogyny?

[82_28]

Haha. One thing me and my GF do when we're in good enough moods to fuck with people is go into swanky boutiques, Victoria's Secrets and shit and pretend like I'm "taking my lady on a shopping spree".

Me: (walking up to clerk/salesperson with GF behind me acting obedient) Uh, yeah do you guys have anything that can fit her? (my GF is a "little heavy")

Clerk: (eyes open wide in surprise) Of course we do.

Then she takes us around and shows us a bunch of shit we're not gonna buy in a hundred years anyways. Then we leave and laugh our asses off.

We do the same thing at jewelry stores. We walk in, looking all white trash and I loudly say, "Alright, pick something out and let's get the fuck out of here. I'm sick of shopping" Or we find the most stupid, heinous silver deer with diamonds and emeralds on it and begin to ask questions.

Also swanky restaurants are really fun to have fake fights in about shit that never happened.

Trolling low-wage female workers at "swanky" Vicotria's Secret for entertainment? That's something to brag about? In a thread about misogyny?

Haha. What? Yeah, exactly. Whatever you say, annie. It's none of your business how myself or my lady choose to have fun when it comes to myself and her -- I was giving an example of how easy it is to get along in light of "all these differences". What makes you think there wasn't a dude at JCrew as well? Jesus H.

[Jeff]

Whatever you say, annie. It's none of your business how myself or my lady choose to have fun when it comes to myself and her

Truthfully, it's none of our business either, and the urination anecdotes constitute too much information. Particularly in the context of this thread.

[82_28]

Whatever you say, annie. It's none of your business how myself or my lady choose to have fun when it comes to myself and her

Truthfully, it's none of our business either, and the urination anecdotes constitute too much information. Particularly in the context of this thread.

Well, I dunno how I've been able to forge so much animosity around here the last few days, but there we have it.

For the record, I was attempting to inject humor into a thread being "fought" on both sides who are verging or were verging on going at each other's throats. If you look at the context of the time in which I posted that shit, I wouldn't have posted it now. I was trying to joke around, by saying, we can joke around about our genders with each other and not take it so hard. Honestly, who really cares about that urination tale? It had nothing to do with the thread, sure, but it was in context of "comic relief". And it wasn't "urination" and it wasn't trolling low wage workers for cryin' out loud.

If you people want me to leave here, then I will. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with me and I am not making it so. However, most everything I've done in this thread is try and keep things "punchy". I have failed. I guess somebody around here has to.

I am sadly beginning to feel less and less welcome here, like so many before me. Ah well. We shall see, eh?

[norton ash]

I am sadly beginning to feel less and less welcome here, like so many before me. Ah well. We shall see, eh?

Why, because people might take issue with some of the things you say rather than applauding? It's a discussion group.

[Nordic]

Yeah, and it's a thread about misogyny started by women!

If you can't take the heat ......

This is a tough thread in which to be a guy.

I'm surprised I'm still here. Oh well, I'm pretty bored these days.

[Aldebaran]

I feel sorry for you, Stephen.

That's just poor form.

--------------------------------

Seems to me that the lack of gender equality has victims on both sides of the chromosomal fence, and misogyny is, at least in part, the expression of that victimhood from the male side. As to why their ire is directed towards women and not towards men (themselves), whom most of you seem to view as the upholders of this patriarchal oppression (and I wouldn't disagree), its probably for the same reason that women don't go around blaming women for their failure or reluctance to go to the police in issues of rape or domestic violence.

I think its important to remember that gender equality for women has advanced tremendously, and any woman today can work in an office, or stay home to take care of the kids, can be strong and outgoing, or shy and passive, and not have these characteristics or decisions judged against their gender. This a luxury I don't see men afforded. Some of you in this very thread have made statements to the effect of "well a man is supposed to be strong and courageous, and that's just how it is". And regardless of how many of you personally hold that view, I'm sure you'll agree that our society is rampant with these kinds of (mis)conceptions. Problem is not all men are that way. Not all men are powerful or, "men of action", and they are held at fault for their personality because they happened to be born with a penis, not only by men but, often times (perhaps more often), by women as well.

Possibly the strongest example of this is how a man's self worth (his very manhood), and worth in the eyes of his peers (or everybody) is strongly and perhaps inexorably linked to his sexual prowess. Thus, a man who does not or cannot fit into the male gender role, I think, will in many cases become spiteful, or at the very least, disenchanted with (rightly or wrongly) those gatekeepers of his sexuality - women . And even men who are capable of playing the game may resent effectively being held hostage to it. This situation is not helped by the fact that many women play into this intentionally to increase their worth as an object, as an ends to some sort of power and influence.

Obviously this is not the only cause of misogyny, not all misogynists are sexual "failures", and neither am I blaming misogyny on solely women (both genders to some degree perpetuate this fucked up system (or, I should say, people who happen to be of both genders perpetuate it)).

[Canadian_watcher]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with me and I am not making it so. However, most everything I've done in this thread is try and keep things "punchy".

ouch, that hurts. I think that this thread does have to do with you. Sexism/misogyny - these negatively effect all people. I was disappointed at the 'punchy' posts in this case, but it's not like I've lost any respect for you or anything and certainly don't think you're any less welcome around here...

[Canadian_watcher]

I feel sorry for you, Stephen.

That's just poor form.

Seems to me that the lack of gender equality has victims on both sides of the chromosomal fence, and misogyny is, at least in part, the expression of that victimhood from the male side. As to why their ire is directed towards women and not towards men (themselves), whom most of you seem to view as the upholders of this patriarchal oppression (and I wouldn't disagree), its probably for the same reason that women don't go around blaming women for their failure or reluctance to go to the police in issues of rape or domestic violence.

I think its important to remember that gender equality for women has advanced tremendously, and any woman today can work in an office, or stay home to take care of the kids, can be strong and outgoing, or shy and passive, and not have these characteristics or decisions judged against their gender. This a luxury I don't see men afforded. Some of you in this very thread have made statements to the effect of "well a man is supposed to be strong and courageous, and that's just how it is". And regardless of how many of you personally hold that view, I'm sure you'll agree that our society is rampant with these kinds of (mis)conceptions. Problem is not all men are that way. Not all men are powerful or, "men of action", and they are held at fault for their personality because they happened to be born with a penis, not only by men but, often times (perhaps more often), by women as well.

Possibly the strongest example of this is how a man's self worth (his very manhood), and worth in the eyes of his peers (or everybody) is strongly and perhaps inexorably linked to his sexual prowess. Thus, a man who does not or cannot fit into the male gender role, I think, will in many cases become spiteful, or at the very least, disenchanted with (rightly or wrongly) those gatekeepers of his sexuality - women . And even men who are capable of playing the game may resent effectively being held hostage to it. This situation is not helped by the fact that many women play into this intentionally to increase their worth as an object, as an ends to some sort of power and influence.

Obviously this is not the only cause of misogyny, not all misogynists are sexual "failures", and neither am I blaming misogyny on solely women (both genders to some degree perpetuate this fucked up system (or, I should say, people who happen to be of both genders perpetuate it)).

If you wanted to go in theories about how some men hate women because they are sexual failures then you shouldn't have started it by quoting me. The quote you selected is my sincere response to watching Stephen twist himself into a pretzel to justify the law's past offences against women.

[Nordic]

Hey, I've got an idea to liven up this thread.

It is my belief that Madonna pretty much singlehandedly destroyed feminism.

At least from the women's side of things.

[Aldebaran]

If you wanted to go in theories about how some men hate women because they are sexual failures then you shouldn't have started it by quoting me. The quote you selected is my sincere response to watching Stephen twist himself into a pretzel to justify the law's past offences against women.

I did not mean to indicate that my entire post was directed at, or had anything to do with, you. I apologize.