What constitutes Misogyny?

[Canadian_watcher]

I'm a woman, Willow, and also the first to use the term "toxic" in reference to this thread, which seems to me to be suffering from a pox of intolerance.

great, you should be uniquely qualified to point out that 'pox' ... some examples, please.

Questioning feminist orthodoxy is not the same thing as attacking a woman or hating women, or being misogynistic.

sure, but outright denying the history that many many feminist scholars have dedicated their careers to piecing together through primary sources, belittling female writers on this board, and ignoring facts concerning the oppression of women to serve a political purpose that benefits only men might be considered to be.

Once one has figured some things out, like gender disparity...

are you contending that you have gender disparity figured out??? It doesn't seem that way to me, what with you insisting that men should be heard above women on this thread.

In the recent past I would have told you that I think that we live within a system that is inherently abusive and that "men", as a monolithic entity, are not to blame for that. Right now, I'm revising my thinking about all this stuff because I've seen something new.

so you were right about what you previously thought.. but now you don't think it anymore. Now you're right about what you currently think. Maybe next week you'll come back around to something you used to believe, or believe something entirely different. Instead of just telling people "you're wrong because I'm right and I don't believe what you believe," why dont' you take part in the actual discussion?

Anyway, Identity Politics don't do it for me anymore. Too divisive and ineffective. Haven't you ever thought about the contradiction in claiming an identity of difference and then demanding to be included in the circle of "just like everybody else?"

So, in your new understanding of the world there are circles of sameness? Everyone participating must conform or be cast out?

Here's Señor Michael Parenti on the subject:

Yes, let's hear what another white, heterosexual, able-bodied, financially secure, anglo-saxon man thinks about this. Here's something we could look at:

Rather than being accepted at face value, Parenti says that all cultures should be subjected to critical investigation to be judged by “universal human rights standards” and by the criticisms voiced by those who are victimized within the various cultures of the world. Parenti gives extensive attention to those who are regularly victimized by their own cultures, providing examples in chapters entitled “Custom Against Women,” “The Global Rape Culture,” and “Racist Myths.” [13]

[Searcher08]

I'm a woman,

Really? How could I ever know? If so however, then do me the favor of assuming I know about which I speak.

Questioning feminist orthodoxy is not the same thing as attacking a woman or hating women, or being misogynistic.

I'm finding this statement rather patronizing, and revealing of your attention patterns.
Do a search on Morgan's profile and get back to me with a more informed view.

As for the rest, your thinking is your thinking, I'm under no obligation to adhere to it. My experience, my perceptions are my own and worthy of respect in any case. Your approach, so far, is cold and manly.

You appear not to grant those demands to others who those disagree with you. Instead of seeing people with attitudes you dont like, you equate a person's worth with the proximity of their views to your own.

Your approach is cold and ... manly

I dont do the hate speech thing much at all, but I have to call this out, cos it really is just that.

Your approach is cold and ... black
Your approach is cold and ... Jewish

I love the smell of fascism in the morning.



Enantiodromia.

Jung used the term particularly to refer to the unconscious acting against the wishes of the conscious mind. (Aspects of the Masculine, chapter 7, paragraph 294).

Enantiodromia. Literally, "running counter to," referring to the emergence of the unconscious opposite in the course of time. This characteristic phenomenon practically always occurs when an extreme, one-sided tendency dominates conscious life; in time an equally powerful counterposition is built up, which first inhibits the conscious performance and subsequently breaks through the conscious control. ("Definitions," ibid., par. 709)

Enantiodromia is typically experienced in conjunction with symptoms associated with acute neurosis, and often foreshadows a rebirth of the personality.

The grand plan on which the unconscious life of the psyche is constructed is so inaccessible to our understanding that we can never know what evil may not be necessary in order to produce good by enantiodromia, and what good may very possibly lead to evil. ("The Phenomenology of the Spirit in Fairytales", Collected Works 9i, par. 397)

The term has also been applied as a neologism to describe the tendency of a younger generation to manifest the undesirable traits of a previous generation, despite the repudiation of these traits when they were young.[citation needed]

Two scientific ideas which appear similar to enantiodromia are Newton's third law of motion and the Gibbs entropy formula.

[Canadian_watcher]

Searcher, why not address some of the issues behind the statement "cold and manly" in a thread about men's oppression?

[Canadian_watcher]

Gender-sexism threads are the most dangerous. I don't think a 'What Constitutes Anti-Semitism?' OP would produce anything really useful before being locked. So why do we dare even try it with misogyny?

I would assume that talking about incest is also difficult. So let's avoid it altogether. Let's advise victims of incestuous abuse to just keep it quiet, shut up and take it, "Don't Offend Daddy"

[brainpanhandler]

I love the smell of fascism in the morning.

Ha. A new use for the convention of green text.

Cold and manly initially caught my attention as well, as I assume it was intended to. My knee jerk reaction was surprise. In a different context it wouldn't be. Hate speech? Really? Personally I don't identify with the term manly, but I guess you do?

It's your thread Canadian_watcher, but I suggest that a conversation about what Willow means by manly is within the broad bounds of the discussion suggested by the thread title.

[Canadian_watcher]

I love the smell of fascism in the morning.

Ha. A new use for the convention of green text.

Cold and manly initially caught my attention as well, as I assume it was intended to. My knee jerk reaction was surprise. In a different context it wouldn't be. Hate speech? Really? Personally I don't identify with the term manly, but I guess you do?

It's your thread Canadian_watcher, but I suggest that a conversation about what Willow means by manly is within the broad bounds of the discussion suggested by the thread title.

No it isn't, but go ahead and discuss it if you must.

[brainpanhandler]

In this thread I have often tried to calm the waters

Maybe more than you should have.

Many of you are behaving like children.

Yes. That's plain. I could be entirely wrong, but I am guessing you might not recognize the complete significance of that.

[Canadian_watcher]

In this thread I have often tried to calm the waters

Maybe more than you should have.

Many of you are behaving like children.

Yes. That's plain. I could be entirely wrong, but I am guessing you might not recognize the complete significance of that.

Just say what's on your mind, please. Enough of this cryptic bullshit. Say it.

[Canadian_watcher]

I'd say:

Hatred of women as a cultural characteristic -- ie, in a misogynist culture, women are regarded as lesser, degraded, and simply not-quite-right-or-normal beings by most people, both male and female. Though an individual can be a misogynist, of course. If he or she has, like, a very pronounced and pathological hatred of women. Anyway. I don't know if that definition has any social currency or not, it could just represent the connotations I assign to that particular word. But fwiw, in general, I think that:

Misogyny = a cultural attitude and associated belief system.

Whereas I think that:

Sexism = discrimination against women by the culture or an individual that's not necessarily representative of strongly held views if the latter. I mean, it might be. But it might just be situational, too. Like a battle-of-the-sexes-type thing, or whatever.
___________________________

Maybe that's not the kind of answer you were looking for? Because it's not really that big of a thing, I don't think. (I mean the distinction, not one or both of the phenomena.) And they're definitely pretty interchangeable on a colloquial basis.

Nevertheless. To me, misogyny is (more or less) a systemic hostility toward women.

remember this, from page 1?

She's right.

We've not talked about that on this thread for many, many pages. Posters have made some interesting and thought-provoking commentary which has been on point yet for the most part those trains of thought have gotten derailed because someone will seize upon a word, like "MANLY" and want to discuss it rather than the topic at hand. and that's just the most recent example.. this thread has been full of that.

For the love of all that is beautiful open your eyes and see it.

[vanlose kid]

^^

that long ago huh?

and i said above that it was on page 17.

look where we are now.

*

[Canadian_watcher]

@VK.. yes, I saw that and loved you for it. should have given you a thumbs up back then, but here it is now:

[vanlose kid]

^^

the question in the OP is a good one, so



right back at you.

*

[23]

I don't think that the discussion would've went where it did if it stuck to the literal meaning of the word misogyny: the hatred of women. From misos (μῖσος, hatred) and gynē (γυνή, woman)

Most dictionaries state that. A few add some additional flavors like distrust and dislike. They are varying motivators, however. And confusing one with the other doesn't help a focused discourse.

[Canadian_watcher]

Interestingly, there was another thread about this very topic started almost at exactly the same time as this one, at a forum called "Politics Forum"

I've only read the first page, and I see the same patterns repeated there as here. Perhaps it would be enlightening for others here to have a look, since we don't know the people involved in the discussion and it takes the 'personal' out of the equation allowing us to maybe see the way discussions are derailed, and how condescending responses to a serious question are in themselves misogynistic:


Link: http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13649296

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[charlie meadows]

For the love of all that is beautiful open your eyes and see it.