a little reminder... on differences...

[JackRiddler]

It's a double bind, Jack — for everyone who imagines that electoral participation in the system (that binds us!) bears any sort of solution at all.

Chinese finger traps have nothing on American "democracy."

Do not impose your schemata on my thinking. If I have ever described "electoral participation in the system" as a solution, then mea culpa, but it's bound to be untrue. I refuse to make elections into the center of my thinking and I take issue with the idea that non-participation is a solution. The real role of the elections is to legitimate a system that is constantly moving to the right, and that moves more quickly that way when the Republicans come in. If people feel like voting to slow that down, good for them. They're not wasting any more time than you are by encouraging them to do nothing and thus be entirely dismissed. Democratic victories serve as confirmation that Americans can be fooled into thinking change will come this way. Republican victories are a confirmation that Americans are hopelessly stupid and endorse a violent, ignorant approach to the world. I don't pretend that the former is much better, or that there's any path to real change without a disruptive, non-violent radicalism from below.

.

[JackRiddler]

I'm going to ignore the implication that the left should be seeking alliances with white supremacists, from whom we've been artificially divided by the nasty controllers. It's dumbfuck enough to fall on its own.

But I've had enough of the excuses for majority dumbfuckery.

Majorities of voting Americans chose Nixon and chose Reagan, chose the first Bush. Something near to that chose the second Bush. I don't want to hear the nonsense about how they were victims. They fucking asked for that. Knowing they'd be fucked by the system no matter what, their preference was to make sure the others and outsiders would be fucked worse. They wanted divide and conquer.

And if they should choose against Obama, it's not going to signify (either to the power elite or the majority themselves) that they have rejected corporatist deception. It's going to signify that they rejected "socialism" and "Keynesian" economics. As ridiculous as that is on its face. If you're going to be pure about the idiocy of elections, then ignore them altogether. Soon as you've declared yourself as an activist for non-voting, you've picked one of the greater evils.

[Simulist]

It's a double bind, Jack — for everyone who imagines that electoral participation in the system (that binds us!) bears any sort of solution at all.

Chinese finger traps have nothing on American "democracy."

Do not impose your schemata on my thinking.

I didn't.

If I have ever described "electoral participation in the system" as a solution, then mea culpa, but it's bound to be untrue. I refuse to make elections into the center of my thinking and I take issue with the idea that non-participation is a solution.

Pretty sure that non-participation isn't a "solution" either, but I am pretty sure that participation is merely an illusory ensnarement or an act of ritual, and little more. Or perhaps a baited little hook of false hope that things aren't quite as bad as we're tempted to imagine that they are.

(They are that bad.)

The real role of the elections is to legitimate a system that is constantly moving to the right, and that moves more quickly that way when the Republicans come in.

Precisely — except that it is not altogether clear to me that "elections" necessarily have anything to do with the desired outcome of the 1% (and therefore the real outcome).

If people feel like voting to slow that down, good for them.

"Good for them"? Maybe, but no more so than "good for" anyone who harbors dubious hopes.

They're not wasting any more time than you are by encouraging them to do nothing and thus be entirely dismissed.

Do not impose your schemata on my thinking. I'm not "encouraging them to do nothing" — if they want, they should consider voting twice; after all, if dead people and corporations can appear to get away with it, then why shouldn't the living give it a try? You know, just for the lulz. But I'm not going to pat them on the back, and say "Good for you" for doing it — because I'm not at all sure acting on dubious hopes is "good" at all. Likely it is merely the illusion of good.

Democratic victories serve as confirmation that Americans can be fooled into thinking change will come this way. Republican victories are a confirmation that Americans are hopelessly stupid and endorse a violent, ignorant approach to the world. I don't pretend that the former is much better, or that there's any path to real change without a disruptive, non-violent radicalism from below.

And this, I probably agree with pretty completely.

[eyeno]

jackriddler wrote:
I'm going to ignore the implication that the left should be seeking alliances with white supremacists, from whom we've been artificially divided by the nasty controllers. It's dumbfuck enough to fall on its own.

That is you applying your schemata to my thinking. It wasn't my implication. My implication is that anytime the big machine focuses on an "other", and suggests you hate it, no matter what color that other is, it is only a hate trigger.

[Searcher08]

You say 'ski-matta'
I say 'sche-madda'
etc etc


Please carry on

[Hammer of Los]

...

Unite people.

Don't divide them.

Division is conflict and war and suffering.

Seek to end conflict and war and suffering.

That is all.

...

[JackRiddler]

jackriddler wrote:
I'm going to ignore the implication that the left should be seeking alliances with white supremacists, from whom we've been artificially divided by the nasty controllers. It's dumbfuck enough to fall on its own.

That is you applying your schemata to my thinking. It wasn't my implication. My implication is that anytime the big machine focuses on an "other", and suggests you hate it, no matter what color that other is, it is only a hate trigger.

I don't need "the machine" to focus me. Fuck the racists you want to make friends with. When they give up their racism, then we can bridge our divide - maybe there won't even be one then. No compromise is possible on this point, white boy.

.

[compared2what?]

who said anything about hating "them" - the call was to RECOGNIZE and face the situation.

But that's just it, Drew. Facing "the situation" isn't imagining that "they fucking hate you"

I don't imagine it. They do hate me. And everything I stand for. Whereas I don't hate them at all. Because I'm a conflict-avoidantpeace-loving, spinelesssuper-tolerant woman of the left. Goshdarnit.

But seriously. The right is much more temperamentally us-vs.them and oppositional than the left is, as well as much more hostile to those they regard as other/outsider/impure. There are actually reams and reams of social-science research that say almost exactly same thing the OP did, albeit in drier and more academic language. Although, you know. Being social-science research, most of it is just common-sense plus statistical tables and footnotes.

Anyway. It's really not a bogus distinction.

[Nordic]

The big question is: Does Lloyd Blankfein hate me?

He's the enemy. Not the guy who owns the big pickup truck down the street.

[eyeno]

I don't need "the machine" to focus me. Fuck the racists you want to make friends with. When they give up their racism, then we can bridge our divide - maybe there won't even be one then. No compromise is possible on this point, white boy.

And your tell. How telling. What a master of peace you are. I'm into compromise, and for my own safety I am sorry that you are not.

Push pull technology. Ok. Exactly what keeps the hate train running. From where does this visceral hate come from, that you have, that would cause you to call me a "white boy"? Do yo know?

What color am I? Do you know? Am I a "white boy" or an "arabic boy" or a "jewish boy" or a "black boy" or a "hindu boy" or a "christian boy" or a "member of the catholic priest hood boy" or a "rabbi boy" or a "amazon native boy" or a "south african boy"? What am I? Other than a person that you know you hate?? Since you don't know what I am do you know why you hate me?

This is enough to eject me out of here. Its been fun but I know a threat when I see one. Later dudes. I don't feel safe here anymore. I don't think I will participate here anymore very likely.

[justdrew]

who said anything about hating "them" - the call was to RECOGNIZE and face the situation.

But that's just it, Drew. Facing "the situation" isn't imagining that "they fucking hate you"

I don't imagine it. They do hate me. And everything I stand for. Whereas I don't hate them at all. Because I'm a conflict-avoidantpeace-loving, spinelesssuper-tolerant woman of the left. Goshdarnit.

But seriously. The right is much more temperamentally us-vs.them and oppositional than the left is, as well as much more hostile to those they regard as other/outsider/impure. There are actually reams and reams of social-science research that say almost exactly same thing the OP did, albeit in drier and more academic language. Although, you know. Being social-science research, most of it is just common-sense plus statistical tables and footnotes.

Anyway. It's really not a bogus distinction.

yes. thank you. I was getting ready to pull out Bob Altmyer's The Authoritarians for the 100th time. There is no doubt the OP is spot on. It's not right/left so much as Authoritarian mentality vs everyone else.

This radical inability to even SEE YOUR ENEMY is kinda pathetic. Joe Kucklehead, if he votes republican, if he likes fox news, is indeed your enemy, and the enemy of every living thing on earth. Whether he knows it or not is wildly irrelevant. If he goes along just to get along with family, then that's tragic, but it doesn't change his choice to become the enemy. Do not hate your enemy, that's counterproductive, but you need to admit who they are when you can clearly discern them.

There isn't even a strategy of accommodation and no one has demonstrated, ever, a way around this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. It's the authoritarians or "us" - choose your side. Refusing to choose is still a choice.

[Nordic]

yes. thank you. I was getting ready to pull out Bob Altmyer's The Authoritarians for the 100th time. There is no doubt the OP is spot on. It's not right/left so much as Authoritarian mentality vs everyone else.

This radical inability to even SEE YOUR ENEMY is kinda pathetic. Joe Kucklehead, if he votes republican, if he likes fox news, is indeed your enemy, and the enemy of every living thing on earth. Whether he knows it or not is wildly irrelevant. If he goes along just to get along with family, then that's tragic, but it doesn't change his choice to become the enemy. Do not hate your enemy, that's counterproductive, but you need to admit who they are when you can clearly discern them.

There isn't even a strategy of accommodation and no one has demonstrated, ever, a way around this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. It's the authoritarians or "us" - choose your side. Refusing to choose is still a choice.

Okay, I don't get it. I think we all realize that "they hate us", so what's the point? I think it's only the professional "leftists" like Obama who pretend that's not true. You know that whole "let's compromise because those people must have a point" nonsense.

But those professional leftists don't count, because they're frauds and liars and con artists.

I really don't see any point to the OP except to have a good, hard Five Minute Hate ourselves.

And anyone trying to manipulate me into hating someone else is not my friend.

[Laodicean]

[justdrew]

yes. thank you. I was getting ready to pull out Bob Altmyer's The Authoritarians for the 100th time. There is no doubt the OP is spot on. It's not right/left so much as Authoritarian mentality vs everyone else.

This radical inability to even SEE YOUR ENEMY is kinda pathetic. Joe Kucklehead, if he votes republican, if he likes fox news, is indeed your enemy, and the enemy of every living thing on earth. Whether he knows it or not is wildly irrelevant. If he goes along just to get along with family, then that's tragic, but it doesn't change his choice to become the enemy. Do not hate your enemy, that's counterproductive, but you need to admit who they are when you can clearly discern them.

There isn't even a strategy of accommodation and no one has demonstrated, ever, a way around this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. It's the authoritarians or "us" - choose your side. Refusing to choose is still a choice.

Okay, I don't get it. I think we all realize that "they hate us", so what's the point? I think it's only the professional "leftists" like Obama who pretend that's not true. You know that whole "let's compromise because those people must have a point" nonsense.

But those people don't count, because they're frauds and liars and con artists.

I really don't see any point to the OP except to have a good, hard Five Minute Hate ourselves.

And anyone trying to manipulate me into hating someone else is not my friend.

the OP is a direct reaction to people who say such things as "let's compromise because those people must have a point" - stating the unfortunate truth is not the same as "manipulating"

History is strewn with the bodies of people who fought against the authoritarian mindset, as I said, this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. I for one would very much like to see it not happen again this time, because baring total collapse, failure this time is going to be it, technological supremacy will prevent any future resistance.

don't hate, but let's not forget, failure will have possibly final consequences

[eyeno]

the OP is a direct reaction to people who say such things as "let's compromise because those people must have a point" - stating the unfortunate truth is not the same as "manipulating"

History is strewn with the bodies of people who fought against the authoritarian mindset, as I said, this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. I for one would very much like to see it not happen again this time, because baring total collapse, failure this time is going to be it, technological supremacy will prevent any future resistance.

don't hate, but let's not forget, failure will have possibly final consequences

Differential reading skills are crucial huh? I get it. Hoping for compromise is fools gold around here. Its been great, and adios. Stupid for an animal to hope it can avert catastrophe for Gods and animals alike but you know what? Its already too late for that. This place is so toxic that nobody is likely to survive intact over the next thousands of years. Hate won. Kudos to hate huh...Fucked up the game for everybody, including hate. Game, set, and match is not a win when the game board is so fucked up that nobody survives it in the long run. This has happened time and time again over the ages but this time the environment is so toxic that NOBODY is likely to win the long game, not even the Gods.

later..................