A Toast to Banned and Disappeared Posters

[Wombaticus Rex]

but can you give me a better reason why, 35 years after the frickin' movie hit the screens, that moth-eaten monster is still paraded out regularly on Fox MLB game broadcasts, including the one I happened to catch yesterday?

"The motive is money, Paul. The motive is always money."

Star Wars is not "the frickin' movie" -- it's a franchise. $5 billion at the box office alone.... and ongoing animated series, ongoing comic book series, ongoing video game series, new animated movies, a line of toys from action figures to lightsaber models to lego sets that still makes millions every year, and it's all owned by 20th Century Fox.

No, really: tell me that's not a better explanation.

[Bruce Dazzling]

...Take Chewbacca-chew tobacco for instance: that one went down in flames here but can you give me a better reason why, 35 years after the frickin' movie hit the screens, that moth-eaten monster is still paraded out regularly on Fox MLB game broadcasts, including the one I happened to catch yesterday?

I'm guessing that in this particular instance it can be chalked up to the fact that last week (May 25) was the official 35th anniversary of the release of Star Wars.

Granted, that's nearly as exciting an explanation, but you know...

[crikkett]

he never took any criticism, never adapted his ideas to valid criticism and basically went into full on "with me or against me" mode.

That's not entirely true. When I first joined this place, he adapted his writing style (however slightly) based on my feedback.

The rest of it is true but perhaps most especially this part:

Instead of taking his ideas and fitting them to reaslity and then changing his ideas and dumping what didn't work he'd do the opposite. he'd try to warp reality to fit his ideas. That is unhealthy for a start but its also a great way to get things wrong and to mislead yourself and others.

But cheers anyway Hugh.

Yes, cheers.

Maybe we'll see something new of his in print one day. Wouldn't that be nutty, tuning into a book junket on cspan and hearing his stuff spoken out loud.

[Joe Hillshoist]

^ not very rigorous, Joe. Nobody asked this big hairy guy to make an opening pitch for example:

Or these big hairy guys:


On the other hand, there's this:

Targeting youth - Smokeless tobacco companies often target younger people with their marketing campaigns. This marketing takes advantage of the fact that, while the current young generation grew up with the knowledge that smoking causes cancer and heart attacks they do not yet know the health risks of other forms of tobacco. Tobacco companies cleverly target their advertisements toward inducing younger consumers to start buying their products. For example, in 2001 and 2002, The United States Smokeless Tobacco Company ran advertisements for its Rooster brand in Rolling Stone and Sports Illustrated respectively. Slogans included "Cock-A-Doodle Freakin' Do," "Where's the Chicks," and "Birds of a Feather Party Together."

Statistics - Additionally, teen use of smokeless tobacco has increased, while use of all tobacco products by teens has decreased. This is true especially among white and Hispanic males. In 1970, five times as many 65-and-older males used smokeless tobacco as 18- to 24-year-olds did (12.7% of the population were 65+ male users, 2.2% of the population were 18–24 male users). More specifically, moist snuff use increased for males ages 18–24 from 1% of the population to 6.2% of the population, while 65+ male users decreased from 4% to 2.2%.

A 2009 survey by The U.S. Center for Disease Control revealed that 8.9% of U.S. high school students had used smokeless tobacco (e.g., chewing tobacco, snuff, or dip) on at least 1 day during the 30 days before the survey. Usage was more common among males (15.0%) than females (2.2%) and among whites (11.9%) than blacks (3.3%) or Hispanics (5.1%). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_tobacco

So even though chewing tobacco has been prohibited from major and minor league games and interviews since 1983, teen consumption has risen steadily. How do you think that happened?

I was talking about the mythic place yowies and yetis and the like have in most cultures worldwide and the mythic value star wars has in the western world. And why a character like chewie* might still tickle the imagination after 30 or 120 years.

* Brought to you by dentists working for extra gum in an attempt to boost their flagging sales.

[lupercal]

^ okay, let's say all of the above is true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, it still doesn’t explain why a “wookie” made out of tobacco flakes with no audible lines or plot necessity that I can recall – basically, he’s one sidekick among many, though I haven't seen it lately – turns up in a spyop saturated Reagan-era covert kiddy recruitment vehicle, and thereafter becomes a mascot at major and minor league baseball games, which had been the most important marketing vehicle for smokeless tobacco until they were banned from showing it on TV in 1983, does it? And if you're shocked at the idea of spooks getting involved in the tobacco trade, take a look at this, from the “Tobacco Timeline” at tobacco.org:

1953-12-08: Dr. Alton Ochsner gives a speech in NYC, saying, "the male population of the United States would be decimated if cigarette smoking increases as it has in the past unless some steps are taken to remove the cancer-producing factor from cigarettes." Tobacco stocks drop 1 to 4 points the next day. This speech is considered by some the last straw, which led tobacco executives join together and to seek out John Hill [of Hill & Knowlton].

1953-12-10,11: In response to an urgent telegram from Paul Hahn (ATC), cigarette executives meet in New York City for first time since price-fixing scandal of 1939, and agree to consult with John Hill.

1953-12-14: Plaza Hotel, New York City: Tobacco executives meet to find a way to deal with recent scientific data pointing to the health hazards of cigarettes. The meeting, called by ATC President Paul M. Hahn, results in a decision to invite PR maven John Hill of Hill & Knowlton to a meet the next day.

1953-12-15: Tobacco Execs Plan Counterattack on Smoking Studies. Plaza Hotel, New York City: Tobacco executives meet to find a way to deal with recent scientific data pointing to the health hazards of cigarettes. Participants included John Hill of Hill & Knowlton, his key aides, and the following tobacco company presidents: Paul D. Hahn (ATC), O. Parker McComas (PM), Joseph F. Cullman (B&H), J. Whitney Peterson, U.S. Tobacco Co.

http://archive.tobacco.org/resources/hi ... y20-2.html

That’s Hill and Knowlton of Kuwaiti incubator fame. Starting to get the picture? And if you don’t know what "PR maven" is a euphemism for go here: http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html


hey where’s Luke anyway?

[Joe Hillshoist]

There's an anti smoking camp[aign called Tar Wars FWIW.

http://www.tarwars.org/online/tarwars/home.html

Honestly tho, while it may appear that Chewie is covered in tobacco, orangutans also look like they're covered in tobacco. Admittedly a different strain with a different curing process, but ... any big hairy man is gonna look that way.

And to be totally honest, if big tobacco recruited Lucas and used the name Chewbacca as a form of subliminal advertising that doesn't really seem too outlandish. We all know the role of movies in smoking pr and it goes back to Bernays in the 20s. That on its own isn't too outlandish a claim.

Its when you add that to a fiendish plot to encourage risk taking behaviour in the hopes of increasing recruitment numbers via identification with baseball that you start treading in real woo, i mean hugh, territory. Why not just make Taps or Top Gun? Instead of piss farting around with some obscure plan to encourage risk taking in the hope that said promotion of risk taking somehow makes people want to join the military instead of taking drugs and base jumping?

[Simulist]

Honestly tho, while it may appear that Chewie is covered in tobacco, orangutans also look like they're covered in tobacco. Admittedly a different strain with a different curing process, but ... any big hairy man is gonna look that way.

My second grade teacher looked like she was covered in tobacco; in fact, it was oozing out from within, I think.

(The several other resemblances between Mrs. Jones and Chewbacca were purely coincidental — really! Although she would almost certainly have been a great addition to George Lucas in Love. And this was in the Bay Area... Hmm. )

[82_28]

^ okay, let's say all of the above is true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, it still doesn’t explain why a “wookie” made out of tobacco flakes with no audible lines or plot necessity that I can recall – basically, he’s one sidekick among many, though I haven't seen it lately – turns up in a spyop saturated Reagan-era covert kiddy recruitment vehicle, and thereafter becomes a mascot at major and minor league baseball games, which had been the most important marketing vehicle for smokeless tobacco until they were banned from showing it on TV in 1983, does it? And if you're shocked at the idea of spooks getting involved in the tobacco trade, take a look at this, from the “Tobacco Timeline” at tobacco.org:

1953-12-08: Dr. Alton Ochsner gives a speech in NYC, saying, "the male population of the United States would be decimated if cigarette smoking increases as it has in the past unless some steps are taken to remove the cancer-producing factor from cigarettes." Tobacco stocks drop 1 to 4 points the next day. This speech is considered by some the last straw, which led tobacco executives join together and to seek out John Hill [of Hill & Knowlton].

1953-12-10,11: In response to an urgent telegram from Paul Hahn (ATC), cigarette executives meet in New York City for first time since price-fixing scandal of 1939, and agree to consult with John Hill.

1953-12-14: Plaza Hotel, New York City: Tobacco executives meet to find a way to deal with recent scientific data pointing to the health hazards of cigarettes. The meeting, called by ATC President Paul M. Hahn, results in a decision to invite PR maven John Hill of Hill & Knowlton to a meet the next day.

1953-12-15: Tobacco Execs Plan Counterattack on Smoking Studies. Plaza Hotel, New York City: Tobacco executives meet to find a way to deal with recent scientific data pointing to the health hazards of cigarettes. Participants included John Hill of Hill & Knowlton, his key aides, and the following tobacco company presidents: Paul D. Hahn (ATC), O. Parker McComas (PM), Joseph F. Cullman (B&H), J. Whitney Peterson, U.S. Tobacco Co.

http://archive.tobacco.org/resources/hi ... y20-2.html

That’s Hill and Knowlton of Kuwaiti incubator fame. Starting to get the picture? And if you don’t know what "PR maven" is a euphemism for go here: http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html


hey where’s Luke anyway?

It appears they got the opening pitch right -- as in LEFT. I decided to do an image search of Chewbacca wielding a weapon and sure enough. Chewie's a southpaw.

[JackRiddler]

Here's to lupercal!

[Wombaticus Rex]

Here's to Comrade Trotsky! Za vashe zdorov'ye!

[lupercal]

^ Ha. Thanks and likewise guys, yeah I'm still here, just pondering Joe's objection about risk-taking behavior:

Its when you add that to a fiendish plot to encourage risk taking behaviour in the hopes of increasing recruitment numbers via identification with baseball that you start treading in real woo, i mean hugh, territory. Why not just make Taps or Top Gun? Instead of piss farting around with some obscure plan to encourage risk taking in the hope that said promotion of risk taking somehow makes people want to join the military instead of taking drugs and base jumping?

Basically my answer is, that would be reasonable if it's what Hugh meant, but I don't think it is. Here's the statement I'm guessing you have in mind, from the highly entertaining "Cloverfield" thread of 2008, which reads like a textbook of KWH theory in Platonic dialogue form:

I've been trying to expose that neuroscience proves we are hardwired for compassion as social animals and that all this Warrior Culture militainment is marketed like tobacco, as a cool risky expression of individuality or as group protection, depending on the receptive personality. Subject: Cloverfield

I don't think Hugh is saying the tobacco pitch is part of the recruitment pitch, just that they're made the same way, and in this case, the same film. But that doesn't seem too outlandish either, considering that even Casablanca, possibly the best war propaganda film of all time, is also one of the best cigarette ads:



I don't remember Ilsa lighting up but she did her bit in other roles:



Anyway that's a classic HMW thread, with all the patient explanations anyone could want, including why Hugh doesn't feel compelled to revise his claims in light of criticism:

I stand by what I have documented and what I know and what I believe because I am dedicated to finding out the truth about militarist propaganda and deception. . . . I'm not a "fundamentalist." I'm just focused and on mission. I've researched to find out what is truthful what is deception. And I stick by what I know.

That's a good argument, no? Why should he change his tune if he's not convinced he's wrong? Of course, the best explainer of Hugh is Hugh, and that's another reason I'm hoping we can get him back here. By the way Joe I noticed you and Nordic being very supportive in that thread so what happened?

[Simulist]

This is like an after-game analysis after the game has already been analyzed to death.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Glad to see a discussion of tobacco and the propaganda appeal to youth going on at my wake. That's the right focus. Priorities.
How could that be used to steer boys into risk-aversion, group identity in uniforms, paramilitarism, away from girlz, and on a path to military recruiting? right.

My permanent ban was changed to three weeks at some point. Sorry to disappoint some. Thanks for the affirmation of others.
I'll apologize to those who want to debate...sorry, did that for years and my time needs to go to my publisher and other outlets.
So I'm mostly asserting what I know for those who can get it point blank (pun intended on the anniversary of the CIA assassination of RFK).

I also observe spook media taking countermeasures against things revealed online and this is a way to gather evidence and learn their system's operational parameters. Alarmingly, some of the countermeasures are lethal. So I'm not inclined to see that happen anymore.

I'll let you know when you can buy my book or click on it.
Ciao for the moment.... (pun intended again)

[peartreed]

Observe a dog with a bone.

He has sunk his teeth into it and won’t give it up. It’s his. He owns it now. It has become part of his snarl. Protected. Defended. It is an extension of what he is, what he has become. There can be no separation now. He, alone, has become the bone.

It has become his bone of contention.

At one time, long ago, the bone itself had life. It was a vital part of a living structure. That was the peak of its purpose. It was the message of its meaning.

Yet, even then, its importance was relative to the rest of the vitality around it. Its relevance was measured in its critical relationship to the whole of its life form, and to that form’s role relative to the rest of the universe.

But even when the life left it and the support system collapsed, it held residual fresh meat, fat, sinew, marrow and provided some hearty sustenance. Later, it became devoid of anything nourishing or of value - just dried, dead, barren fragments of its former form. Skeletal, diminished, used and spent. It had long since been rejected, bypassed, replaced and abandoned. It was destined to be dust, to be blown away.

A memory.

Except by the dog.

A dog needs a bone. It gives him purpose, something to chew on, to obsess over. It represents a memory of all he has lost, the possessions that he gave up, the vitality and energy lost, the others he couldn’t hold on to, the ones that passed him by.

Lost and misplaced loyalty is an instinctive quality easily misdirected into a bone.

Those who ridicule his bone, who point out its flaws, it uselessness, are the enemy. They just want his bone, and everything it means to him. They can’t see it.

He has invested his all into it.

It might even be worthless to them.

It might be totally worthless now, of and by itself.

But worth is in the eye of the beholder, or in the jaws of the bone holder.

He can’t give it up.

It’s all he has.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Instantly I'm goaded and attacked ad-hominem as A DOG by username peartreed. Um, mods?

Observe a dog

More...pear-a-social-interaction...(1956)...looks pre-pear-ed for this moment....

"fresh meat, fat, sinew, marrow
dried, dead, barren fragments
Skeletal, diminished,
rejected, bypassed, replaced and abandoned."

Pfeh. Let us LEARN from this post. Just what is being used here to negate me?
Answerl: Implicit Association Theory.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/d ... tists.html
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/d ... hrono.html

http://www.teachgreenpsych.com/cognition.php#implicit

I

mplicit Associations And Connectedness To Nature

Schultz, Shriver, Tabanico, and Khazian (2004) use a modification of the Implicit Associations Test to measure individuals' connection to nature. The task measures participants’ response latency in making “ me-not me” judgments for words associated with the natural environment (e. g., trees) versus words associated with the built environment (e. g., car). Shorter response latency for me-nature pairings is interpreted as reflecting greater implicit association (i. e., connection) between the self and the natural world. Importantly, researchers have not found the IAT to be a good predictor of environmental behaviors.