New book in Israel says the October war (1973) was LIHOP

[Homeless Halo]

You can't get rid of gangsters when the people who are in charge of getting rid of them are them.<br><br>There is only one solution to this problem, and none of us will like it. <p></p><i></i>

[Sweejak]

"Why are you against the increase in the price of oil? That is what they want?"-- Shah of Iran. <br><br> "Ask Henry Kissinger - he is the one who wants a higher price."' --Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani<br> <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You can't get rid of gangsters when the people who are in charge of getting rid of them are them.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->yep.<br><br><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">WHat's the<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> solution</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> you had in mind HH ??? :-) as long as it is not too final ?</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> <br>Truth is, its becoming absurd. Since the corruption of the place succeeded so well, it remains for the US to further come in, and remove the very same people they were using here to keep their interests. This is actually the same American pattern all over (first instate Saddam and then move in to remove the tyrant). We are waiting for US law enforcement now to clean the stables. Anything is better than the thugs they nursed here. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Homeless Halo]

run for office. take a friend with you.<br><br>encourage others to do likewise. Build your own conspiracy inside of theirs.<br><br>Encourage others to do likewise.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

cute. I can't see how I, and my non existent friends to the conspiracy can drive out the US military/CIA/AIPAC out of Israel (now, add Nato, as they have "invited" Israel to send a rep recently, a huge "breakthrough" for our little country). <br>But that's nice, i'll add your support to the vote of confidence by my collection of fish. Silent support, but very much there.<br>Since ALL the opposition forces in ISrael have been co opted by this or that American (or European) money...i don't see any other way to go about it. Perhaps I'll form the first non sponsored poor party, supported by Iranian money ? (they too are probably funded somehow by the USA).<br>See, you'd have to start reading Fannon and all these old guys who wrote about how impossible it is for colonised society to regain independence. We are talking now about some form of Hybrid-bastadized cotinuuom, less corrupt than other and a bit more tolerant to differeAnce (A..). But it always takes the will of the powerful master to give away some power to the little ones. Revolution is another mistake (as ZIonism shows). I cannot get into all that literature but the area has been covered by "Post colonial studies" pretty extensively.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Homeless Halo]

many things are distasteful. the only options are those that involve dissidence. as this would likely lead to imprisonment and death, I suggest an alternative. <br><br>Collaboration. I see this as the only survivalist methodology of regaining control. That or suicide.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

:-))<br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[eric144]

"WHat's the solution you had in mind HH ??? :-) "<br><br>In my opinion, there isn't one. Every red blooded Arab wants to literally blow Israel off the face of the earth. <br><br>My (outrageous) solution would be to move all Israeli Jews to the United States. They would be safe(ish) for the first time in many generations. It would only cost a fraction of the oil profits, <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

oh, eric, this is BS. Not all the Arabs want Israel blown off. I doubt that very much, despite the attempts to sway public opinion in that direction. I have seen much less racism and hatred among Arabs (to Jews) than elsewhere. There is a legitimate national dispute over sovereignity in the lands of Israel/Palestine and also some religious dispute with regards to the holy places, but overall the history of the Jews and the Arabs/Moslems is not at all bad. (compared to enlightened Europe).<br>Moving the Jews to the USA...well, i think if you actually raised this option (namely, giving out free greencards, many would follow - me me me first ;-)) but many other would not. <br>Especially if the offer came, it would look too suspicious.:-0)<br>But this would not be the main hurdle. It would be non Israeli Jews who would object,<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> because they are using Israel as an "insurance policy" (which is the root of the problems</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> here) (namely - mercenaries, idiots, gene pool bank, guinea pigs and generally pets or not really equal Jews, the kind that can "take" the shit). Of course, Europeans can blame no one for this situation, but their own racism. <br>Personally, I trust my Arab "enemies" MUCH more than Evangelical "lovers of Israel"...i am willing to move to Northern california (I have several spots I can point to, that I REALLY like) as long as the USA accepted same quota of Palestinian immigrants to live nearby if they so chose. We can't live without them.<br>As I wrote somewhere else, the USA might be able to absord a fair amount of non EUropeans and "assimilate" us successfully into being air heads. But if we chose Canada, for instance, they wouldn't agree0 although there's plenty of land there...and we can become a "first nation" as well, with casinos and tax free cigarettes. Hell, I like this idea. how about Vancouver Island (its bigger than ISrael/Palestine in territory, and only has 250,000 inhabitants, good weather too) ? This could be the disneyland island for "war games playgrounds (not real real just fun)" and best Humous on earth. <br>If you look deeper into your dark European heart perhaps you will realize that in some ways you don't really care about those "less than humanoid MidEasterns" be them Arabs OR Jews, let alone the less vocal victims of Europe - the Black peoples of Africa. Imagine we just wanted to come to London and have your lifestyle ? <br> <p></p><i></i>

[eric144]

"oh, eric, this is BS. Not all the Arabs want Israel blown off. I doubt that very much, despite the attempts to sway public opinion in that direction."<br><br>Well, the ones I talked to at university certainly did. They were generally from very wealthy families too. They wanted Saddam to smash Israel during the Gulf war. They mainly came from the Gulf states, but also from Iraq, Libya etc. You might be comforted to know that Iranians hated the Americans even more than Jews.<br><br><br>"the history of the Jews and the Arabs/Moslems is not at all bad."<br><br>Until 1948, then it got as bad as it possibly could.<br><br>"because they are using Israel as an "insurance policy"<br><br>That is the other side of the equation here. Who are the real prison wardens ?<br><br><br>"Personally, I trust my Arab "enemies" MUCH more than Evangelical "lovers of Israel"..."<br><br>very sensible too !!<br><br><br>"We can't live without them."<br><br>why is that?<br><br><br>"If you look deeper into your dark European heart perhaps you will realize that in some ways you don't really care about those "less than humanoid MidEasterns" be them Arabs OR Jews"<br><br>Aren't most Jews white ? I've never met anyone in my life who told me they were Jewish, perhaps I've never met one at all . <br><br>"Imagine we just wanted to come to London and have your lifestyle ? "<br><br>I really don't think any of you sub humans would enjoy my lifestle which involves me having a total income of about $20 a week to spend on food and everything else.<br><br><br>have a nice day in the sunshine.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eric144>eric144</A> at: 10/23/05 7:56 am<br></i>

[eric144]

" let alone the less vocal victims of Europe - the Black peoples of Africa. "<br><br>I think you have to get it into your thick head that people on these boards are landless peasants. My ancestors were the victims of the British Empire in Ireland and Scotland not the benificiaries. <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

AS a mideastern woman, being told "thick head" is not ego smashing, we bend and bow and move on giggling. <br>Its just that you seem personally agitated at the conflict in the Middle East, and I still didn't figure that out, you seemed angry, personally for some reason.<br>Are Jews white ? some are some aren't. That's beside the point, being an Israeli, I am not European, this is the Middle East here. I am fifth generations here and eat Homous mostly.<br>I know people were angry during the gulf war and wanted Iraq to win, at some point I felt the same, and this has to do more with opposing the scam (US-ISraeli-Brittish what not) of this war. I think you might be misreading even some of the Arab response, as most are fully aware of the distinction between "jewish" and "IDF" and even "Jewish" and "Zionist" and even "idiot gullible Zionist" and "bad ZIonist". They live here, if they do, and have also been under European rule and are now under US pressure. I still say, I don't think they hate Jews. I don't even think they hate ISraelis, i think they hate the same people/events that many like me, and you too, hate. <br>HOwever, I don't even witness racial hatred among the most oppressed Palestinians in the territories. <br>One can fight a war and still not resort to racism, or religious "crusades". life is complex here and elsewhere. <br>I have learnt a lot from Palestinians, in terms of forgiving even the follies of my people. They have seen more that we did, in terms of really BAD governments (in their respective countries, and the effects of long colonialist corruptions).<br>Certainly, I don't think Arabs in general think Jews are lizards. <br>WHich is step higher than what I saw in the white world.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[eric144]

"They live here, if they do, and have also been under European rule and are now under US pressure. I still say, I don't think they hate Jews."<br><br>I don't live in Israel, but wasn't it Jews that stole the land from Palestinians, that put them in concentration camps and still won't let them return ? Didn't Jewish terrorists fight with and murder British soldiers to achieve their goal ?<br><br>"WHich is step higher than what I saw in the white world."<br><br>So, you aren't white yourself then ? What was it you saw ?<br> <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

It is Jews who stole the land from PAlestinians. I think it is also the Brittish Empire that stole the lands of all the people in the region until it was ousted forcibly, and I think it was Europeans who ousted Jews and stole their homes and didn't let them go back there (till now, I suppose). ANd so forth. <br>AS I said I don't think we see the facts differently except I don't like your tones. You see, we all agree the Americans and Canadians (most of whom were from Brittain and the regions) stole the land from Indians and slaughtered them. This does not mean that I will regards each and everyone of them as a racist killer and land grabber, and there are people from all places who would rather see a better world. I don't see any Brittish person as directly responsible for the total devastation of the Middle East through exploitative colonial rule. And so forth (I even try not to see every German as Nazi), and as I said, I am quite certain that most Arabs, certainly the Palestinians I know in person, do not hold me, or the likes of me, responsible, in fact we have a lot in common against the same power structures here. Not all the JEws here are happy go lucky SHarons, there are more than a million under poverty line, discrimination is abound against Arabs, Jews of Sepharadic origins, Ultra Orthodox Jews etc. There is a faily thin layer of rich who gain from the situation, the wars, the hatred and the US presence here. And you might be surprised, or not, these groups are in cahutes accross enemy lines, whether they are Jewish or Palestinian or Iranians. We just dance to their drums and bleed. the only chance for this to change is for us, the screwed up muck, to unite as well, along those lines, namely, create partnerships Arab-Jewish and what not, to create solidarity against the same kind of people and ideologies. We have all grown old by now to know that governments have now acquired a life of their own, and in fact they are mostly ruled by rich people who are into money making VIA nation states. So, it leaves us with the more pressing question, whether any of us, the "people", can do anything about it. <br>What I meant to say is that talking to you, seems like you assume that Wolwowitz and I share the same lifestyle. Well, I think he is dangerous for me the same as to Palestinians or Iraqis or Americans that oppose him. <br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I only tried to show you, that it feels bad, if I hold YOU vicariously responsible for all the crimes of Europe, the UK and what not. We are just people, I am as landless peasant as you are.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> You just noticed how bad it feels (for you) to be lumped up with your enemies (the Brits) in fact, by an ignorant foreigner who couldn't care less about the intricacies and realities of your actual life. <br>I am not sure this is what you are doing, but it feels this way. When you think about solutions to the situatoin, consider the fact that among those you "register" as the Jews who stole the lands there, is ME. I don't have a land, the SIraeli government confiscated my land (which my great grandfather bought from Turks more than 150 years ago), because I am not "someone who mattered".<br> <br> <p></p><i></i>

[eric144]

"If you look deeper into your dark European heart perhaps you will realize that in some ways you don't really care about those "less than humanoid MidEasterns""<br><br>That was a little extreme.<br><br>", it leaves us with the more pressing question, whether any of us, the "people", can do anything about it. "<br><br>I very much doubt it.<br><br>" don't have a land, the SIraeli government confiscated my land (which my great grandfather bought from Turks more than 150 years ago)"<br><br>That is a major exception to the general rule and if settlement had continued like that, there may have been few problems.<br><br>I was only trying to portray the Jews as seen from the Arab side. I do understand that the majority of the problems in the world south of Gibralter are / were a result of European colonialism. <br><br>What do you think would happen if the Americans stopped suppling weapons to Israel and took back the ones you have now ? <p></p><i></i>