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tapitsbo » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:42 pm wrote:But like someone said earlier threads have been started to find precise definitions and gotten nowhere. Some things are more related than others and once we get too precise we've abandoned many of the best features or "potential" of language.
Although they may have been shrill about it, I think many of the posters in this thread were making a point that terminology relates to what aspects of history are focused on or made "king". I definitely don't see anyone disputing the reality of the nazi genocide here. Even though some of what other posters said could have been worded better, it's obvious to me that nobody on this board is taking a "white nationalist" or "holocaust denialist" position.
Searcher08 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:30 pm wrote:There was a Nazi Holocaust...
Let's set up some 'entities' - in CAPS for clarity.
These are NOT meant as rigid distinctions or categories
HISTORICAL NAZIS
These people created an industrialised killing system for Jews, Gays, Disabled, Roma etc Millions were killed via three main methods: extermination camps, slave labour and Einsatzgruppen execution squads.
The numbers vary from 1 to 6 million
HISTORICAL ZIONISTS
These people were contacted with regard to a 'hostage' deal - buy Jews freedom and ship anywhere except Palestine. This was rejected knowing they would be exterminated.
Source: Neturei Karta website
Extensive collaboration of Wall Street (WASP and HISTORICAL ZIONIST) with Nazi regime before and during WW2 established by Anthony Sutton.
HISTORICAL CONCERNED JEWS
An NK Rabbi desperately tried to broker a deal later in WW2, but this was rejected by the HISTORICAL ZIONISTS
PRESENT DAY NAZIS
Will use strategies including Conspiracy Theory to enroll people in Nazi / Far Right causes.
Example: Zundel wrote books inventing the Nazis in Antarctica theme with the aim of getting Holocaust revisionism onto mainstream media.
Will use an approach of 'Nazi Holocaust' was just war / what people do to minimise effect / impact of Nazi Holocaust.
Will deliberately conflate Zionist with Jewish
PRESENT DAY HASBARA / ZIONISTS
Seek to shut down debate / discussion about factual data (Six Million number must not be questioned)
Questioning facts taken as evidence of being an associate of Neo-Nazis
Seek to establish Nazi Holocaust as exceptional and unique and complain about when
attempts are made to show commonality (Evidence Abe Foxman video of him in Ukraine)
Regard any questioning of their assumptions as itself Anti-Semitic
Speak of secret PRESENT DAY NAZIS using code words for Jews
See anyone connected to Anti-Semitic figures or talking about what they regard as Anti-Semitic tropes as being themselves Anti-Semites
Will treat all anti-Zionist statements as Anti-Semitic
PRESENT DAY CONCERNED-lIBERTARIANS
React violently to being told what are grey zones and areas that they cannot / should not go into.
Able to do their own research and make own mind up, not brow-beaten by HASBARA
Vehemently reject the HASBARA "Asking Questions" = "Anti-Semite" universal equivalence
Reject thought police, whether Zionist or Anti-Zionist
Aligned with Norman Finklestein on rejecting the "Nazi Holocaust as an industry"
See HASBARA use of 'PRESENT DAY NAZIS use code words for Jews" as designed to stifle debate and act as thought police
PRESENT DAY CONCERNED DATA BASED FOLKS
Exhaustive research of Holocaust facts done by Nizkor.
Forensic, point by point fact based debunking of the key PRESENT DAY NAZI documents like the Leuchter Report
Generally ignored by HASBARA / ZIONISTS and also by PRESENT DAY NAZIS (who refuse to debate / correspond with)
jakell » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:38 pm wrote:@ Searcher... If you typed all that out from your head in real time, I'm in awe. If you pasted it, it's still pretty good stuff.
@ Slimmouse... I like to take a functional approach to definitions ie if they work for us then that's great, if they are problematic then let's massage them a bit. I recently debated some incredibly anal bloke who treated dictionary defintions like mathematical formulae ie to be hunted down mercilessly and then adhered to forever after, no discussion. Also the shorter and terser the better.
solace » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:06 pm wrote:Searcher08 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:30 pm wrote:There was a Nazi Holocaust...
Let's set up some 'entities' - in CAPS for clarity.
These are NOT meant as rigid distinctions or categories
HISTORICAL NAZIS
These people created an industrialised killing system for Jews, Gays, Disabled, Roma etc Millions were killed via three main methods: extermination camps, slave labour and Einsatzgruppen execution squads.
The numbers vary from 1 to 6 million
HISTORICAL ZIONISTS
These people were contacted with regard to a 'hostage' deal - buy Jews freedom and ship anywhere except Palestine. This was rejected knowing they would be exterminated.
Source: Neturei Karta website
Extensive collaboration of Wall Street (WASP and HISTORICAL ZIONIST) with Nazi regime before and during WW2 established by Anthony Sutton.
HISTORICAL CONCERNED JEWS
An NK Rabbi desperately tried to broker a deal later in WW2, but this was rejected by the HISTORICAL ZIONISTS
PRESENT DAY NAZIS
Will use strategies including Conspiracy Theory to enroll people in Nazi / Far Right causes.
Example: Zundel wrote books inventing the Nazis in Antarctica theme with the aim of getting Holocaust revisionism onto mainstream media.
Will use an approach of 'Nazi Holocaust' was just war / what people do to minimise effect / impact of Nazi Holocaust.
Will deliberately conflate Zionist with Jewish
PRESENT DAY HASBARA / ZIONISTS
Seek to shut down debate / discussion about factual data (Six Million number must not be questioned)
Questioning facts taken as evidence of being an associate of Neo-Nazis
Seek to establish Nazi Holocaust as exceptional and unique and complain about when
attempts are made to show commonality (Evidence Abe Foxman video of him in Ukraine)
Regard any questioning of their assumptions as itself Anti-Semitic
Speak of secret PRESENT DAY NAZIS using code words for Jews
See anyone connected to Anti-Semitic figures or talking about what they regard as Anti-Semitic tropes as being themselves Anti-Semites
Will treat all anti-Zionist statements as Anti-Semitic
PRESENT DAY CONCERNED-lIBERTARIANS
React violently to being told what are grey zones and areas that they cannot / should not go into.
Able to do their own research and make own mind up, not brow-beaten by HASBARA
Vehemently reject the HASBARA "Asking Questions" = "Anti-Semite" universal equivalence
Reject thought police, whether Zionist or Anti-Zionist
Aligned with Norman Finklestein on rejecting the "Nazi Holocaust as an industry"
See HASBARA use of 'PRESENT DAY NAZIS use code words for Jews" as designed to stifle debate and act as thought police
PRESENT DAY CONCERNED DATA BASED FOLKS
Exhaustive research of Holocaust facts done by Nizkor.
Forensic, point by point fact based debunking of the key PRESENT DAY NAZI documents like the Leuchter Report
Generally ignored by HASBARA / ZIONISTS and also by PRESENT DAY NAZIS (who refuse to debate / correspond with)
Angels and demons. My oh my.And look at who the demons are: Nazis and a certain class of bad Jews. And I don't suppose you have one clue why many Jews would find this anti-semitic as fuck except to think they were trying to silence your "concerned," enlightenment and brilliance.
solace » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:00 pm wrote:"Yes- a bogus formulation to me. The neat categories proffered carry an insidious form of spin. This is propaganda, not social science."
"Spin," seems tame. Agenda is more like it and it's a smelly one. This guy's a slippery one but the reliance at least twice recently on the Neturei Karta bullshit is pretty much the dead giveaway. Good thing he's got some "Jewish friends, aka alibi Jews," for camouflage.
Yes- Neturei Karts is a tiny, marginal culty group that opposes Zionism on dogmatic theological grounds, and is often appropriated by the racists as proof somehow that they're not...racist. They are indeed mostly used as "alibi Jews" in my experience...
The “Illuminati Protocols”
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is one of the “classics” of anti-semitic literature. It supposedly written from the point of view of Jews planning to take over the world. Created by the Tsarist secret police and spread about by pogromschiki (paid agitators who were fuckin paid to start pogroms in the last days of Tsarist Russia) you might think that anyone who takes such a work seriously is dodgy at best. Hitler took it as fact and the Nazi regime frequently referred to it, in fact there was even a trial in Switzerland in 1935 with Nazi lawyers involved to determine whether or not it was real. It is a plagiarism based on a mixture of various fictional and satirical works, none of whose authors knew what purpose their writing would be put to. The book “Warrant for Genocide” by Norman Cohn goes into detail about the origins and history of this laughable fairy story which was used to justify the genocide of Europe’s Jews and was used to justify the Second World War itself, as the Nazis claimed that Jews were controlling the Allied governments.
So it is slightly unusual for someone who claims not to be an anti-semite to make such extensive use of this forgery in his writing. In his early work such as the Robots’ Rebellion Icke quotes extensively from the Protocols and other anti-semitic texts. He gets around accusations of anti-semitism (sort of) by claiming that the Protocols are actually the “Illuminati Protocols” and that they were blamed on the Jews by the people who really control the world.
However, this claim does not really stand up to scrutiny. A search for “illuminati protocols” on Icke’s website reveals this page in the first couple of results.‘The Rothschilds were Sabbatean-Frankists. This Satanic movement gave birth to the Illuminati, Communism and the NWO. It controls the world today. But ironically, while many Illuminati pretend to be Jews, they actually wish to destroy Jews who earlier had excommunicated and vilified them. Thus, there is an unrecognized schism in the Jewish people, where heretics have exterminated the mainstream and taken control of the remnant through Zionism. Yet, due to the anti-Semitism the Illuminati Jews cause and organize, Jews mistakenly cling to their leadership.
The Nazi hierarchy was probably of Frankist origin. We’ll look at this evidence later. But first we’ll examine what Rabbi Plaut, who was President of the Canadian Jewish Congress, said about their holocaust plan.’
The Sabbatarians were Hungarians, probably the majority working class peasants, who adopted Judaism as their religion in the 1700s and 1800s. Many, if not most of them were accepted as Jews by the Jewish community. The majority of them were murdered in the holocaust.
There was a “false messiah” called Sabbetai Zvi who lived a few hundred years prior to that which Icke may be thinking of. However, he moved to Turkey and converted to Islam, leaving behind a tiny sect with no relevance at all to anything – his followers mostly became Muslims at the same time as he did and their descendants today may not even be aware of their family history. Certainly any descendants of theirs, being in Turkey, were unlikely to have been anywhere near the holocaust when it was happening.
It is clear that Icke wants to blame the holocaust on a conspiracy to do with the Jews, who he claims he thinks are the “fake” Jews and not the real ones. However whether they are real or fake really makes no difference. It sounds anti-semitic and even if it’s not the people he’s slandering were entirely innocent. If I was being cynical (I am btw) I would say he concocted this entire “fake Jews” idea with the intention of claiming he’s not anti-semitic. On his discussions on the Protocols he talks about “Jewish and non-Jewish conspirators”. Jews and non Jews = everyone. So why not just say “conspirators”?
Dodgy views about the Holocaust
His claims about “rothschilds” being responsible for the Second World War, and thus the holocaust, match very closely what was said at the time by the Nazis about the Rothschilds funding world wars. They even made a film about them!
In any case, the idea of a group of shadowy conspirators behind the war isn’t exactly new. David Icke can talk about “Rothschilds” “lizards”, “zionists” and “illuminati” all he wants, and claim that his writings have nothing to do with Jews. But why don’t you connect the dots?
This is the cartoon he posted on his website about the World Jewish Congress’s call to try and criminalise holocaust denial (a call which btw I disagree with):
Nothing anti-semitic at all about that, is there?
On previous occasions he has defended the holocaust denier Ernst Zundel, author of those seminal, scholarly works “Did Six Million Really Die?” and “The Hitler We Loved and Why”. He even says “Ernst Zundels words proven true – see for yourself!”
I thought Hitler was a Rothschild? I thought he was part of the conspiracy – that obviously had nothing whatsoever to do with Jews, the idea that it is is merely being “programmed” into sheeple with “big gobs”! So why is he talking this way about somebody who clearly worships Hitler and even saying he is “proved right”? His whole thing about the conspiracy not being a Jewish one couldnt possibly be a ploy to convince people he’s not anti-semitic, could it?
In his book “…and the truth shall set you free,” he has talked about copies of Schindler’s List being distributed to schools in order to brainwash school children with an “unchallenged view” of the events of World War II. Of all the countless historically inaccurate films that are produced by Hollywood every year, whether it is U-571 or Braveheart, why pick on this particular film?
My God what would a “challenged view” look like? Oy vey!
“I’ve brought in my grandad’s medals from the War when he liberated the camps”
“That’s great – but for homework tonight, watch this two-hour DVD about how your grandad didn’t liberate anyone, and it was all done with holograms”?
To challenge the dominant consensus which simply presents an “unchallenged view” of the planets orbiting around the sun, perhaps we should show children this website, which demonstrates with scientific and Biblical proof that the earth doesn’t move in the sky because it was put there by God, and all the stars and planets move around it. The guy who produced it isn’t too keen on the Jews either, so Icke shouldn’t have a problem with that. Enough of that NASA propaganda and the so-called Hubble Space Telescope!
Or perhaps when learning about geography, rather than programme them with all that software programming, we should show them the true, unbiased picture and help them to make their own minds up by counteracting all those mainstream, “scientifically acceptable” maps of the world and making them study a copy of “100 Proofs Earth is Not a Globe“. It wouldn’t at all be a complete, pointless waste of our time and theirs, it would be helping them overcome the programming of the system and feel the truth vibrations, maaan.
Dee’s is for Disingenuous
On the link I quoted earlier about David Icke complaining about the World Jewish Congress and it’s stance on holocaust denial, we find something rather interesting. Much of what Icke posts is links to external sites. If you click on this particular external site, you discover something surprising.
Headings around the side of the “Ugly Truth” blog which he has copied and pasted the words from include such beacons of tolerance as “The real face of Judaism and Zionism”. Either he takes a complete lack of care as to which sources he uses in his articles, in which case he’s not much of a “truth seeker” if he is too fecking lazy to look at the websites he’s citing, or he’s actually endorsing those views himself.
The “Ugly Truth” blog where Icke gets his holocaust denial story – found under the heading “illuminati criminals” has this as its logo:
Yeah. Right. It’s all about lizards. How dare you insult his important research! Get a brain, morans! Open your mind!
Now no doubt there will be those who at this point are going, “But you’re just trying to smear him by association!” let me ask you this. If you have somebody who is routinely copying and pasting stories from websites of that nature and giving these people a platform on their website, boosting their search rankings and so on, would you not think there was something rather suspicious about all their claims to simply be exposing the truth?
David Icke doesn’t copy and paste from their websites. He endorses what they say. He claims “the truth is anti-semitic”. He regularly goes on the shows of people like Jeff Rense, the wife-beating nutcase who looks like the bastard love-child of Bjorn from Abba and Josef Fritzl whose radio show is linked to on the front page of fucking Jew Watch, the website which Google had to apologise about a few years ago because it was showing up in their search results. If he’s not a racist then why is he continually giving these people a platform and allowing them to give him one?
Then, of course, there’s his illustrator, the guy who designs the cartoons and images on his site. The Dees Illustration Studio. Have a look around if you can stomach it. Every picture on the site seems to be about Jews, the front page of it shows Marx with a star of David on his coat and other images on the site show Israel depicted as a snake in the Middle East with a star of david on it. This picture is just mad as revisionists like David Irving are depicted as being superheroes pushing over police cars.
I er.
I just don’t know what to say about this picture. Except that I’m quite glad I’ve never tried whatever it was they were taking when they designed it.
Nice guy this, huh?
David Icke’s illustrator has also illustrated a book called “Synagogue Rising” which is about “anti-Christian Judaism” and claims on its back cover that “our fight is with the conspiratorial and not the common Jew”. I wonder whether I could find out whether I’m a “conspiratorial” Jew or just a “common” one. Is there a test you can do on the internet? Hilariously it also tries to answer the question “why some Jews identify themselves as people of the serpent”. Just before the Torah is read and everyone is sitting comfortably, out comes some dude with a box of rattlesnakes for people to “test their faith” with. I suppose it would get everyone grateful to God they were alive at the end of the service.
David Icke’s forums another piece of evidence that belie his claims that he loves humanity and wants everyone to free their mind from the matrix. They are crawling with neo-Nazis, promoters of the Protocols and there is currently a thread in their general forum with openly pro-Hitler material in it. Several posters have signatures about Jews and the Protocols. He even claims that the Royal Family are secretly part of the “Illuminati” and are sacrificing children and drinking their blood!
Projection much?
Icke says that:“Jewish people are simply wonderful when they allow themselves to be who they really are. They have such a contribution to make to the good of the world. But I have rarely met one who really loves themself or does not carry the burden of inherited guilt. My friends, it is all about control. It’s time to let it go. Jewish people (who, like the rest of us, are evolving consciousnesses which happen to be experiencing a Jewish lifetime), will never be free until they step out of the mental and emotional control of this tiny clique, which uses them in the most merciless ways to advance its own sick and diabolical ambitions, in league with an equally sick clique of non-Jews.”
Yet we then get this. And this. Are these “chosen people” the fake Jews or the real ones David?
ETA: Jews create anti-semitism by their own behaviour and “thought-patterns” (And the Truth will Set you Free, p.126):The conditioned thought patterns in the collective Jewish mind have repeatedly created the physical reality of oppression, prejudice, and racism which matches the pattern – the expectation – programmed into their collective psyche. They expect it; they create it. When Jewish people as a whole break free from the mind control of their hierarchy and start to let go of those feelings of fear and expectation of prejudice, they will stop attracting such experiences to them.
Translation: “Those fucking kikes bring it on themselves by whining about being persecuted all the time. If they didn’t behave like this we wouldn’t have to be racist. They expect it. They create it. They ask for it.” The cry of every entitled superior little scumbag throughout the world seeking to justify their bullying of and violence towards those weaker than them, whether it’s racism or women who “ask for it” by walking down the street wearing the wrong clothes.
Yes, if only I would allow myself to be who I really am and join the Nazi hippies and their Fuhrer on a jolly to Peru “where it all began” or to stand around a field in Watford scaring myself silly about chemtrails, vaccines and the symbolism on money, and behave like all the other well-adjusted, healthy Jewish people who agree with him such as Gilad Atzmon and “Brother Nathaniel” the pitiful formerly Jewish Orthodox Priest, linked to on Icke’s mate Jeff Rense’s website, who tries to convince passer-bys in the street that Hitler was right and his former co-religionists was the source of all the world’s ills.
solace » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:00 am wrote:"Yes- a bogus formulation to me. The neat categories proffered carry an insidious form of spin. This is propaganda, not social science."
"Spin," seems tame. Agenda is more like it and it's a smelly one. This guy's a slippery one but the reliance at least twice recently on the Neturei Karta bullshit is pretty much the dead giveaway. Good thing he's got some "Jewish friends, aka alibi Jews," for camouflage.
Yes- a bogus formulation to me. The neat categories proffered carry an insidious form of spin. This is propaganda, not social science.
"Spin," seems tame.
Agenda is more like it and it's a smelly one.
This guy's a slippery one but the reliance at least twice recently on the Neturei Karta bullshit is pretty much the dead giveaway.
Good thing he's got some "Jewish friends, aka alibi Jews," for camouflage.
American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:05 am wrote:solace » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:00 pm wrote:"Yes- a bogus formulation to me. The neat categories proffered carry an insidious form of spin. This is propaganda, not social science."
"Spin," seems tame. Agenda is more like it and it's a smelly one. This guy's a slippery one but the reliance at least twice recently on the Neturei Karta bullshit is pretty much the dead giveaway. Good thing he's got some "Jewish friends, aka alibi Jews," for camouflage.
Yes- Neturei Karts is a tiny, marginal culty group that opposes Zionism on dogmatic theological grounds, and is often appropriated by the racists as proof somehow that they're not...racist. They are indeed mostly used as "alibi Jews" in my experience...
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