Please note

[professorpan]

Sunny,<br><br>My apologies -- I in <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>no way</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> was speaking about you personally. I'm sorry if it came across that way. The "you" meant anyone on the board.<br><br>Mea culpa! I'm usually more careful with my language. <p></p><i></i>

[marykmusic]

What's the difference between a "Holocaust denier" and someone who wants to point out that, like much of history-as-written-by-the-winners, the whole story is not being told? --MaryK <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

Holocaust deniers...you know....deny the Holocaust. <p></p><i></i>

[sunny]

professorpan, apology accepted. You cannot know how painful that was! You may not believe this, but your words (misconstrued as they were) were the first time I ever felt wrongfully accused. Now I know a <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>little</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> of how jews might feel being told they are the cause of all the worlds ills.I know, not exactly comparable,but a little sharpening of our powers of empathy can never hurt! For that, I am grateful. <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What's the difference between a "Holocaust denier" and someone who wants to point out that, like much of history-as-written-by-the-winners, the whole story is not being told? --MaryK<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>That's how they usually start -- "the whole story is not being told." Which is an utter crock, and is factually unsupportable, as the Holocaust is one of the most well-documented atrocities in modern history. <br><br>"The whole story is not being told" is the opening move. Then they start with the real goods -- the gas chambers were a myth. The Nazis didn't have a policy of extermination. And so forth, ad nauseum.<br><br>I've seen it happen again and again. And I don't fault Jeff for not wanting his message board tainted with the crap that starts accumulating when that topic is broached.<br><br>Like I've said several times, if someone feels a burning need to discuss Holocaust revisionism or denial, there are thousands of places to do it. <p></p><i></i>

[Avalon]

Professor Pan is right. There is no "right" to "free" speech on any Internet bulletin board. This is a common misunderstanding of an ambiguous term, and even confuses a lot of well-meaning and otherwise knowledgeable people. The problem most often comes up when there are unspoken rules rather than clearly stated ones.<br><br>Participation on Jeff's discussion board and blog, like most boards and blogs, is subject to whatever constraints that Jeff chooses to impose. He, in turn, is also responsible to EZBoard and Blogspot, and must make sure that board postings do not violate the TOS (terms of service) they require. If Jeff says "Jump!," if your response is anything other than "How high?" you'd better say it real nicely, and better be willing to accept the consequences. "Free" doesn't mean you don't have to pay, in this context.<br><br>While there are indeed many bulletin boards where anything goes (please feel free to take advantage of them!), almost all places where there is public discourse there are exceptions to the notion of free speech. You can't shout FIRE in a crowded theatre, you cannot libel or slander, you don't have freedom to sexually harass someone or incite violence, you aren't free to impose your commercial speech (spam) in some ways.<br><br>Wisdom in any community situation, here or face to face, requires that you pick your fights carefully. You need to weigh your own needs with the thought of what is best for your community. Sometimes a "Look, there are a lot of good reasons for why we just shouldn't go there" is the greater wisdom. Those who don't value Jeff's reasons can always go set up their own bulletin boards.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Floyd Smoots]

To ALL & SUNDRY:<br>SO LET IT BE SAID, SO LET IT BE DONE!!!!<br>ppboy, a.k.a., professorpan, put it best of all, to wit:<br><br>"You still seem unable to understand your rights on this board -- you have none. You have no free speech here."<br><br>Ergo, as a firm believer in the "late, lamented" First Amendment to the Constitution of these now, alas, "Untied States", I will now state Firmly, and For the Record........<br><br>Wait....just a minute......I'm chanelling Jesus, here, and I think He's telling me to "Keep it Clean, Alexander", so, now, Here It Is:<br><br>Jeffrey Wells, you are a grovelling coward. Your choir, whom I will leave unnamed for now, and you; may now feel, Not Quite Free, but MERELY CHEAP, to say anything that the All-Knowing, All-Powerful, God-Of-The-Fifty-Godforsaken-Dollars-A-Month-Blogmeister allows you to say!!!<br><br>The rest of you readers, lurkers, member-posters, should just simply RUN!!! NOW!!! THERE IS NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH HERE!!!!! WHAT????? POSSIBLY, I HAVE NOW BEEN "BANNED"??? GO FIGURE!!!!<br><br>But, here's the worst part. I probably won't be banned for this post. How sad is that??? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :\ --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>

[Rigorous Intuition]

Floyd, live free. But take it somewhere else.<br><br>As far as I can tell, you've been all noise here and no signal. So I'm rising to your challenge and saying, Go with God. <p></p><i></i>

[Avalon]

For those who were sleeping during civics class, here's a review of the First Amendment to the Constitution:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>AMENDMENT I <br>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Got that?<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Congress</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> is not supposed to make laws that prohibit your freedom of speech.<br><br>I don't see any clauses starting with "Jeff shall make no requests in his own forum that participants can open their mouths and let nonsense flow out like honey."<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

Yeah, nice job, Mr. Smoots.<br><br>I notice you never replied to my refutation of your slander against me ("dark side," anti-Christian). That's typical of how pompous, judgmental nitwits act -- fling a bunch of baseless accusations and refuse to back them up. Your lack of principles is apparent from your ducking and running.<br><br>As far as calling Jeff a groveling coward, I think you should look over your Good Book and recall what it says about "He that is without sin..."<br><br>Good riddance. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Edited to fix Bible quote.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=professorpan>professorpan</A> at: 3/13/06 1:24 pm<br></i>

[Col Quisp]

Glad to see you're cleaning house, Jeff. I'll second PP's remark: "Good riddance." <br><br>Here's hoping the level of discourse will return to its original vigor.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

PP wrote-<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That's how they usually start -- "the whole story is not being told."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Whoa. Careful!<br>Does anyone else see that this is exactly the desired effect on discussion boards by info suppressors and agents provocateur?<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>-Crank up the heat to obscure the light.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>The heat is intentionally thrown on the topic of Jews and Nazis to <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>chill any discussion of how the US corporations built the Nazi war machine and then their Corporate Invisible Army took in Nazi war criminals as assets.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>This tactic of making people hypersensitive to 'code words' was used by the reich-wingers when they started the meme that the left was "politically correct" and oppressive as thought police. 'Discussing racism is what causes problems, not actual racism.'<br><br>Goal: Chill discussion of class warfare and racism and sow confusion and demoralization, typical cointelpro methods.<br><br>Chip Berlet specializes in this tactic. <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

Hugh,<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The heat is intentionally thrown on the topic of Jews and Nazis to chill any discussion of how the US corporations built the Nazi war machine and then their Corporate Invisible Army took in Nazi war criminals as assets.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I haven't seen any evidence of that happening on this board. It's quite easy to delineate between Holocaust "revisionist" arguments and discussion of U.S. financing and harboring of Nazis. <br><br>That's not to say the deniers won't take up any issue in order to insinuate their ideology. But it's easy to spot them, as they always push the same points:<br><br>1. The Holocaust, as it is popularly understood, is a fraud or a hoax.<br><br>2. There is a conspiracy among Jews to push the fraud and attack those who call attention to it.<br><br>Their arguments and methodologies vary, but those two points are the crux of their agenda.<br><br>I think many good-intentioned people are unaware of the history of the denial movement, and would benefit (as I did) from studying both the denial sites and the sites that monitor the deniers. <br><br>The Wikipedia entry is a good place to start, as it has links to the major denial sites and the sites of organizations engaged in exposing/refuting them:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>

[sunny]

thanks for that, professor. I also think it is important to delineate these two lines of inquiry. <br><br>On early US sponsorship of fugitive Nazis, go here:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20and%20Notes/Articles%20and%20Notes.html">www.maebrussell.com/Artic...Notes.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>(several good articles on Nazism in America. See also excerpts from George Seldes <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Facts and Fascism</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sunny@rigorousintuition>sunny</A> at: 3/13/06 3:33 pm<br></i>

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

ProfPan-<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>I haven't seen any evidence of that happening on this board. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This board was very vigilant againt 'code words' last fall when posters showed up pushing Zundel and white pride. Very acrimonious accusations ate up bandwith and repelled participation.<br>So I'm not convinced that all holocaust denial voices are even genuine since it is such a useful tool of division through inflammation of suspicion against code words.<br><br>That's why I say whoa to "That's how they usually start..." even though <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>you are correct that this happens.<br></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>Of course holocaust denial is a genuine phenomenon and frequently blatant and thus easy to identify.<br><br>And thanks for the wiki link. The more light the better, right?<br><br>But I'm warning against feeding cointelpro agent provocateur tactics and reinforcing the <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>discrediting of the concept "hidden history" </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->by always linking it to holocaust denial. <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 3/13/06 3:52 pm<br></i>