How To Fight Tyranny.

by **professorpan** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:39 am

DE, you are the shizz! A spider poison antidote. Let them eat the shoes of Murray Rothbard!

by **rothbardian** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:34 am

Comments to mentalg. and Mr.Joe mentalgongfu-- Thanks for the comments. No, I detected no 'meanness' whatsoever. And maybe you're right about a 'disconnect'. Sometimes two parties can only go so far in understanding each other...at least until there has been time to let each other's worldview sink in fully. I think you're not understanding me...and you may be thinking the same. You made statement: "Wal-mart security arrests Roth, sans the middleman, only Roth has no right to trial and will likely be tortured unless he can convince them Joe is full of crap." I did cover this subject a little bit, previously. I would argue that you are not understanding how dramatically the dynamics change in the absence of a coercive centralized government-- First of all, the whole community, all of Walmart's customers and all of Walmart's associated businesses, would be watching this play out. I don't know if you're thinking this through but...any business that (as you describe it) kidnapped and tortured one of it's customers or any agent representing one of the multitude of businesses that it relies on to conduct it's own business...will have just committed fiscal suicide. Which business or potential customer is going to do business with an outfit that presumes to use deadly force against those with whom it has a dispute? Other competing businesses would immediately step in with a promise/guarantee to never use force and to submit all disputes to reputable arbitration. Their reputation consequently, would begin to soar...along with their business volume. There is no such accountability with government bureaucracy. Firstly, I have no choice but to do business with them. Secondly, I am treated discourteously every single time I go, for example, to the Department of Motor Vehicles building. There is no recourse. The same goes for the (now) federalized airports. The petty bureaucrats at the metal detector look down their noses as though we community members are cattle. Again, no recourse. Try complaining sometime. I'm sure insurance companies (who have a financial interest in preventing gun battles from breaking out in the streets), credit card companies and other such organizations, would be giving out formal ratings and scores for all these things. The other thing you may be overlooking is-- in the absence of coercive authoritarian government, people are not going to be sitting in their homes like little sheep, waiting for goons from Walmart to come pick them up. Freedom tends to 'take' fairly quickly. Any 'goons' or other criminal types, could no longer count on the citizenry to be disarmed and defenseless. Nor could they count on the citizenry to be reluctant to use deadly force because of ridiculous and immorally prohibitive self-defense restrictions that exist currently. In the absence of government that scenario disappears very quickly. If goons were literally coming with guns...they'd need to be prepared for return fire. They'd also need to be prepared for a preemptive strike. In other words, a fiscally devastating mini-'civil war'. Don't you think Walmart could think a few moves ahead like that? I think they could. That's why I'm saying it is extremely unlikely this 'deadly force' scenario would be perpetrated by a profit-based operation-- it's hard enough to turn a profit under peaceful circumstances. --------------------------------------------------- Mr. Joe Hillshoist-- When it comes to charitable giving. I stick to the principle of not letting "the right hand know what the left hand is doing". So I'll keep my activities of that nature under wraps, if you don't mind. This is an anonymous board anyway, so if I said I was donating a million dollars a year...it could be a tall tale. I looked at the website you linked...but it seemed to have an extremely heavy political and liberalish bent. Personally, I would probably be more drawn to an organization that tucked away the ideology elements OR an organization that reflected more of my personal outlook. As far as your "A1" comments-- I had already made huge arguments about the benefits of giving my business to Third Worlders, if you want to address any of those specifically. You thought I was (non-maliciously) condescending in my remarks about "goats and chickens". I see the exact reverse-- these people don't want to live in the middle ages any more than I do. I have seen so much presumption of superiority in lib culture anyway...I just see some of this as "Oh let's give these nice Third Worlders a goat. That's all they'd appreciate anyway". Yuck. I provided a link earlier in this thread that demonstrated how Somalians have been making a beeline, not for goats and chickens...but rather for email, laptops and cell phone service. Even though (I think) I know where you're coming from (a socialist/liberalish point of view) it still amazes when I read comments like yours, where you disparage the 'market place' ("...not interested in the global market place..."). The market place is a good thing. It's where I buy my food, clothing and shelter. I don't know about the situation you describe, where people are being killed. That is tragic. However, I do know this-- Not every single time there is a dispute between a 'big business' and a 'little guy', is the little guy automatically right and just. I intuitively recognize huge inconsistencies and contradictions in 'progressive' philosophy, when I see massive numbers of human beings having been shoved like canned sardines, into an urban setting...so that each little bunny rabbit can have five square miles to itself. That's wrong. And then elsewhere inexplicably, all of a sudden, there are other humans who because they have been categorized as 'tribal people' or as 'nature dwelling' (or whatever) they get to have a thousand square miles to themselves, no matter how much it might crowd others and no matter how much resource this cuts off for others. Yes, we need resources for living. It is not evil to...need resources, in my view. By the definitions of typical liberal thinking, six billion humans create so much overcrowding that people are about to topple off the planet ...but if your 'tribe' has received a politically correct sacrosanct 'hands-off' designation, principally from the PTB (powers-that-be) in academia (liberals all)...then you are entitled to a heaven-on-earth 10,000 square mile paradise. That's not right. One more comment about forest lands. Here in America, the government-owned portions are an absolute disaster. Because bureaucrats are too lazy and inept, they don't take care to properly thin out the forests. So every year there are these massive, human-killing, property-destroying million acre fires. Also, it is considered politically incorrect to allow lumber companies to come in and do this thinning (by harvesting some of the trees) because...heaven forbid if there were to be a 'free market' solution to what has become an annual national tragedy.

by **rothbardian** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:54 am

AlanStrangis-- I think I know what you're saying when you refer to the Fed. If I understand you correctly, then I am in agreement-- the Fed is nothing but a bunch of private bankers who, back in the early 1900's successfully inserted themselves into the government, and now have governmental authority. They have been printing up counterfeit money (whether physically or just electronically) for 95 years, and they're about to destroy the U.S. currency. (I'm just stating my opinion here. Don't have time to build a case.) That's why I have argued (earlier in this thread) that if the PTB had to pay their own way to world domination...they'd run out of money in a month.

by **rothbardian** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:13 am

DreamsEnd-- I didn't quite follow your comments about the color 'blue'. I have no problem with it. It's a lovely color, as far as I'm concerned. Your one comment however, says it all-- "The CIA has been funding the warlords." The government is funding the warlords, yet you think the government is the solution. That's a contradiction. You are arguing that we need government in Somalia to get rid of the warlords. But Somalia HAD a government (back in the early 90's)...and that didn't stop the emergence of the warlords. IN FACT, it was the government that caused the warlord scenario, to begin with-- corrupt Somalian government officials colluded with oil companies to grant massive operations in Somalia. The community revolted. The government fell apart. Now...you want to repeat the same exact mistake: 1) Create a government power monopoly. 2) The power monopoly then creates a huge opportunity for injustice from the PTB. 3) And the Somalian people are then once again subjugated--- Because 'government' creates central control mechanisms, the PTB can come in there and hand out a few Cadillacs and umpteen thousands of dollars in payoffs to the appropriate Somalian politicians, and then shove a 'funny money' IMF loan down the throats of the Somalian people (and start collecting those crushing interest payments) OR have their oil companies come back in to run roughshod over the Somalian community. Meanwhile, private individual Somalians have been building infrastructure at lightening speed (strictly on a profit basis) despite the warlords, despite the CIA, and despite 'government' efforts to create violence. And not only have these individuals been braving the dangers of warlords and CIA creeps...they've been doing so in the complete absence of any 'protective' Somalian government. If the Somalian community is supposedly 'helpless' without government bureaucrats (most of whom are lazy, inept and disdainful in my and your experience --if I may be so bold) then how have they made all of their progress in the total absence of a domestic government? And if they have been able to plug the Somalian community into the 'high tech' world of email, laptops, and cell phone service, with no government aid or subsidies...what could they do, to additionally build their community, if we got rid of all government aid to the warlords and all obnoxiously obstructing government bureaucrats? Can you imagine how well a federal "Department of Cell Phone and Email Service" would have done under the same circumstances as these amazing, rugged Somalian entrepreneurs? Try to visualize some overweight DMV bureaucrats out there in the desert, huffing and puffing as they're laying down some landlines, with bullets whizzing by. Really...try to visualize that. Good luck. Meanwhile, neighboring countries with established governments and no roving warlords...are taking years to get cell phone and email service to it's citizens. And what will the Somalians do if (heaven forbid) a Taliban regime comes to power (and forbids female doctors, cheering at soccer games...i.e. all freedoms)? I guess they could at least be thankful they have a 'government' even if they...have no freedom? Wouldn't it be nice if the U.S. government folded tomorrow..and all the collusion that has gone on between it and the drug industry and the health care industry disappeared? They could no longer get away with charging $100 for a pill and $5000 for five stitches. Extending health care and medications to the world's poor would be a thousand times easier. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rothbardian>rothbardian</A> at: 6/20/06 3:18 am

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:17 am

Roth Roth you do what you want with your money, you can post here or not, say you gave money when you didn't, didn't when you I don't care. You mentioned a whole lot of stuff that to me is propaganda, I had a B next to those comments. I posted the link so you or anyone else can go and make up their own mind. That is not my business. You don't have to justify to me or anyone else on this earth what you do, cept maybe yourself. Personally I think you are a hypocrite and a fascist, but hey its a free world. And even if it isn't I intend to live as tho it were. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>these people don't want to live in the middle ages any more than I do. I have seen so much presumption of superiority in lib culture anyway...I just see some of this as "Oh let's give these nice Third Worlders a goat. That's all they'd appreciate anyway". Yuck.<hr></blockquote> That website is run and maintained by the very third worlders you are talking about. Obviously they have access to the technology we take for granted. Those people are in charge of their destiny and that website is their excursuion into the mindspace of mareketspace that this electronic network we are using provides. That is how they wish to deal with the world. They may have gas and oil on their traditional, and legally recognised land. Land they have occupied since the before nation states were invented. Its not for sale. You need those resources - tough shit. You can't have them. No price is enough. If you want those people to agree to that sale you will have to destroy their culture. But the sound of it you are into that concept. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> intuitively recognize huge inconsistencies and contradictions in 'progressive' philosophy, when I see massive numbers of human beings having been shoved like canned sardines, into an urban setting...so that each little bunny rabbit can have five square miles to itself. That's wrong.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And then elsewhere inexplicably, all of a sudden, there are other humans who because they have been categorized as 'tribal people' or as 'nature dwelling' (or whatever) they get to have a thousand square miles to themselves, no matter how much it might crowd others and no matter how much resource this cuts off for others. Yes, we need resources for living. It is not evil to...need resources, in my view.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>By the definitions of typical liberal thinking, six billion humans create so much overcrowding that people are about to topple off the planet ...but if your 'tribe' has received a politically correct sacrosanct 'hands-off' designation, principally from the PTB (powers-that-be) in academia (liberals all)...then you are entitled to a heaven-on-earth 10,000 square mile paradise. That's not right.<hr></blockquote> You sound offensive patronising and verging on espousing Communism. Or theft. That land is theirs, by religious right. their God (the only God, that created everything, We all He/She/It/They by different names) gave it to them in the context of the tribal forest based Paganism they live through. What part of "keep out - this is our property" don't you understand? These people categorise themselves as tribal. Obviously you find that offensive. Most White rascist corporate capital worshiping male monotheists do. (I dunno if you are in that category or not, but if the shoeprint fits...) They feel they are the only ones with the right to define reality, and the idea of "primative savages": A Having the gall to do it for themselves; B Daring to look hard at their perfect mammon whorshipping culture and reject it for the evil vampire it is. is just beyond the pale. How dare they. I seriously doubt you could go to that paradise and actually survive, Roth, without destroying it to make way for your need for conveinience. Again you are a propagandist "The market place is a good thing. It's where I buy my food, clothing and shelter." The market place was once a physical place where people traded. Other human interactions took place on a level that was not mediated by the expression of power in society - money. They took place everywhere - the market place, a space where money, not the inalienable human right to exist, dominated human interaction was kept seperate, it was recognised that ultimately market place activity was there domain of Privelege, private law. Now the road is part of the market place, a tollway run by private interests, instead of a universal attempt by society acting together to enable infrastructure. If you haven't got cash you cannot travel on the road. Once upon a time you could always walk down the road if you couldn't fill your car with petrol. Not these days. The marketplace is destroying the concept of public shared space. Not cos its a bad thing in itself, but simply because of the slavish whorship it inspires in people who claim it is the only valid arbiter of human existance. If you lived in my country you would be one of those idiots that advocate the privatisation of the (Volunteer based) Rural Fire Service (NSW). Thats another post in itself, like the Higanon, you know nothing about that either, so I am really looking forward to your comments. I know thats an assumption but based on the evidence I have seen so far... Perhaps I am being harsh. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Here in America, the government-owned portions are an absolute disaster. Because bureaucrats are too lazy and inept, they don't take care to properly thin out the forests. So every year there are these massive, human-killing, property-destroying million acre fires. <hr></blockquote> I know exactly what you are talking about, tho would differ on some aspects of your interpretation. I have seen first hand the utter devestation that private lumber interests can wreak when they feel so inclined. There are places my children (if I have them) will never see because of their greed and ineptitude and desire for control. Finally back to the Mindinao mountains. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't know about the situation you describe, where people are being killed. That is tragic. However, I do know this-- Not every single time there is a dispute between a 'big business' and a 'little guy', is the little guy automatically right and just.<hr></blockquote> I know cos of word of mouth. I don't expect you to know. Here's the deal. Someone walks into the forest, and chooses a nice juicy tree to chop down. Then they are surrounded by Higanon, who have been following them since they entered, of course. Its their forest, they know when strangers enter. They are threatened with traditional weapons, sometimes modern ones, the intruders are disarmed and removed, minus their equipment. if they kill people they will undoubtedly be added to mindinao's list of terrorist groups. And their leader hates people being killed, no matter who they are. Unfortunately the logging interest are not so respectful of life. So all higanon are targets. I guess this is fair enough. After all <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And then elsewhere inexplicably, all of a sudden, there are other humans who because they have been categorized as 'tribal people' or as 'nature dwelling' (or whatever) they get to have a thousand square miles to themselves, no matter how much it might crowd others and no matter how much resource this cuts off for others. Yes, we need resources for living. It is not evil to...need resources, in my view.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>By the definitions of typical liberal thinking, six billion humans create so much overcrowding that people are about to topple off the planet ...but if your 'tribe' has received a politically correct sacrosanct 'hands-off' designation, principally from the PTB (powers-that-be) in academia (liberals all)...then you are entitled to a heaven-on-earth 10,000 square mile paradise. That's not right.<hr></blockquote> They own that land, its inalienable, say what you want, it doesn't change that. Your reference to yet another western colonialist entity (western academia) and the idea that they somehow had anything to do with this people's self determination, is another corporate excuse, and an attempt to delegitimise them. Of course these excuses only play out in communications media and usually only for the purpose of providing an excuse for the theft and associated bloodshed. Thats why one of the most fundamental ways to fight tyranny is to fight the usurption of basic human sovreignty by some mythological cthonic entity. The marketplace. And to point out its pathetic fascist propaganda wherever possible.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:20 am

I have a few things in common with him, including the ability to fuck up regularly and spectacularly. But I hate dogs. So i guess I was a bit touchy.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:48 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Wouldn't it be nice if the U.S. government folded tomorrow..and all the collusion that has gone on between it and the drug industry and the health care industry disappeared? They could no longer get away with charging $100 for a pill and $5000 for five stitches. Extending health care and medications to the world's poor would be a thousand times easier. <hr></blockquote> Yeah right, the US governemnt... Thats why those items cost so much... Please explain.

by **Dreams End** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:30 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If the Somalian community is supposedly 'helpless' without government bureaucrats (most of whom are lazy, inept and disdainful in my and your experience --if I may be so bold) then how have they made all of their progress in the total absence of a domestic government?<hr></blockquote> What progress are you talking about, exactly?

by **rothbardian** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:48 pm

Joe Hillshoist-- I'm fascist? Fascism requires a huge, bristling, evil, authoritarian/totalitarian government, armed to the teeth with guns, cannons and dungeons. I'm against all of that. I don't know where you get that I find "tribal people" to be "offensive". I do not. But just because a given culture exists, does not mean that culture is perfect...or divinely ordained, does it? I would have to imagine you yourself, have plenty of criticisms for plenty of subcultures around the world. In any case, I don't propose that anyone run roughshod over any 'tribal' people or any other people, for that matter. That doesn't change the fact that...it is possible that a culture over time has strayed into the path of other people's rights. For example, if there were a town of 5,000 people which had developed over the years, next to a 10,000 square mile 'reserve' for 400 'tribal' people...there might come a time when the townspeople begin to need access to the resources (water, firewood) of this reserve. How to resolve that situation? All I can say is that if I was one of those tribal people, I would feel guilty about imposing needless hardship on the townfolk because of my unrealistic 'stake-claiming' of all those square miles that I only partially utilize anyway. --- Also, you ask me to explain my view of how government has immorally priced medical care out of reach. This has been going on since the beginning-- If you pay attention to the news, you will keep hearing stories about how the military bureaucracy, for example, paid $700 for a toilet seat...or $900 for a hammer. This is happening because when the companies who do business with the government (which is a bit like a great big, dumb beast) are providing these goods or services ...they can get away with ratcheting up the prices. Over and over again, the government agents in question, go along with the rip-off after being paid off with a nice golf vacation to Hawaii on the company jet (or something like that). The corrupted government agent doesn't care because...it's not his money that is paying the bills- it's the taxpayers' money. Over time, corrupt politicians have colluded with corrupt health care industry captains to skyrocket the prices. A few years ago, I spent about three hours in an emergency clinic -took a few Xrays, received a bit of pain medication, took up space on one of their cots, had a nurse and doctor briefly look me over....and got a bill for $9000. If you removed government from the equation with all it's artificial and corrupt protectionism, and the health care community was subject to a world of freedom, and all the obnoxious red tape were removed, and other clinics were free to set up shop and compete openly...there'd be a clinic down the street offering all the same services I received, for $250. Now there's a compassionate plan to help poor people. But I guess I'm still just a fascist/communist/hypocrite? ----------------------------------- DreamsEnd-- <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4020259.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4020259.stm</a> You get the usual pro-government propaganda in this MSM article, but what shines through is a remarkable story of Somalian entrepreneurs who have erected an entire facet of the Somalian nation's infrastructure..all while under fire from warlords, CIA and other government efforts to destabilize. As I said--What could these same private individuals additionally accomplish (in stark contrast to hallmark bureaucratic inefficiency, laziness and slowness), in bringing needed goods and services to Somalia...if we got rid of funding for the warlords..and got rid of all obnoxiously obstructing government agents (the CIA, any other U.S. government, and all future, dim-witted Somalian bureaucrats with their miles of useless government red tape)?

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:19 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>But just because a given culture exists, does not mean that culture is perfect...or divinely ordained, does it?<hr></blockquote> Every indigenous culture on the planet (and a few non indigenous ones) claim to have divine ordination, and perhaps they are even correct. I don't know. However those indigenous cultures base their religion on the land and understanding that it is responsible for their survival. You claim a town may infringe on the rights of nearby forest dwellers, but if you were a forest dweller you would feel guilty about not giving them access. Why? They cannot manage their own situation and territory so they encroach into yours? I don't feel guity for other people's fuck ups and neither should you. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm fascist? Fascism requires a huge, bristling, evil, authoritarian/totalitarian government, armed to the teeth with guns, cannons and dungeons. I'm against all of that.<hr></blockquote> It requires no such thing. All it requires is a coersive attitude toward others. Once you determine that your rights take precedence over others, and invade their territory you have acted on fascism. However this often needs the support of an intellectual justification, esp in the "modern" world. In this case the justification is that "we" "need" those resources. The implication is that primative savages have no right to withold those resources from "us". They have every right. I don't think you understand this. (Perhaps you do, in which case you are overtly fascist. We all have fascist tendencies, perhaps the trick is to become aware of them.) To claim they donot have that right is similar in my mind to Communism, where an external arbiter decides the process of resource distribution. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In any case, I don't propose that anyone run roughshod over any 'tribal' people or any other people, for that matter. That doesn't change the fact that...it is possible that a culture over time has strayed into the path of other people's rights.<hr></blockquote> No. Not in this case. Unless othjer people's rights include the concept of manifest destiny, the right of technological power to run roughshod over others for their own economic gain. It may well be possible, but in this case the shoe is well and truly on the other foot. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>For example, if there were a town of 5,000 people which had developed over the years, next to a 10,000 square mile 'reserve' for 400 'tribal' people...there might come a time when the townspeople begin to need access to the resources (water, firewood) of this reserve. How to resolve that situation?<hr></blockquote> Let the townspeople starve. Tough shit. They have consumed their own resources without regard for maintaining a sustainable future and now need to consume the resources of a neighbouring group to maintain their lack of management. If they wish they can invade their neighbours in the aim of thieving the necessary resources, and perhaps, from their own perspective that is the correct thing to do. The can try to open a market between them, in the hope of trading something they have for the other groups resources. They can appeal to the better nature of the people on the "reserve" next door. Those people next door had better be careful they don't let their generosity subsidise the townspeople's greed and waste to their own detriment tho. The "reserve" you are talking about is probably based in the US, and I am not up on the details of those situations. However those reserves are the result of the blatant murder and dispossession of the previous owners of the land now called the US. They are also surrounded by a culture that is so used to sucking the rest of the world dry for its own resaource needs that it still thinks it has divine right to do so. Mussolini was the one likened fascism to corporatism. As for your example on the medical prices. In my country there is Government subsidised health care. in the US there isn't. Now I am sure that the access to medical treatment in the US is fairer, more open to everyone and cheaper than here. Cos over there private groups provide medical treatment to the market with less governemnt interference than here. And the service must be best and cheapest in Somalia where government has been absent for years. Since the be a slave agreement, I mean free trade agreement my governement has signed with the US the cost of prescription medication has increased while its quality has decreased. That is your free market unfettered by government in action, we get less for more. I preferred the days when if you wanted to part of the market in my land you did it on the terms we had decided here. If you didn't like that piss off. That enabled us some control on what went on in our home. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If you removed government from the equation with all it's artificial and corrupt protectionism, and the health care community was subject to a world of freedom, and all the obnoxious red tape were removed, and other clinics were free to set up shop and compete openly...there'd be a clinic down the street offering all the same services I received, for $250. Now there's a compassionate plan to help poor people.<hr></blockquote> Yeah thats exactly whats happened here - NOT There is no profit in providing services to people outside centralised cities. the cost is not worth the reward. The dismantling of that protectionism has left the poorest communities with the least recourse in the worst position. That is the practical result of all your pie in the sky hypothetical corporate utopian propaganda. That might work fine for a culture that eats its young, as P - Funk so accurately put it, but please keep your poison at home, don't export it here. A worldwide global marketplace that corporate interests are so hungry for is one where standards are constanbtly lowered. Since 1066 the only thing that has protected people in Common Law countries is increasing their access to and participation in government. Thats real socialism. But I guess we can't have that cos often ordinary people don't hold shares and have nothing to gain by resource privatisation.] There is a bloke in venezuaela who gets continually reelected, and has the population come out in his support whenever corporate interests try to oust him. How do you feel about Chavez? Do you have any idea why he is so popular?

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:34 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>there'd be a clinic down the street offering all the same services I received, for $250. Now there's a compassionate plan to help poor people.<hr></blockquote> Cool I could go open one now. Not that I know anything about medecine, but desperate scared poor people will give me 100 bucks to do that $5000 procedure. There is no governement regulation to stop me, or ensure I am properly trained. And who knows I might get lucky, there is the placebo effect after all... I actually get where you are coming from, and maybe I am being harsh, but... Government is a necessary evil, I am an anarchist from way back, and as time goes on I see the error of some of my earlier thought. For example the volunteer fire brigade thing I mentioned earlier. Under a user pays system we would return to the horror of 1700's England where competeing fire brigades basically extorted people into protection rackets. It is the logical outcome. However with the government being involved we have a situation that for all its flaws is more workable than without their involvement. I have seen private contractors on the firefront, and they knock off at knock off time. There have been times when such a mercenry attitude has increased to the danger that everyone else on the fire front is exposed to. Because we are volunteers we go out and do the job till its finished, regardless of the cost benefit analysis or any other financial considerations. It often costs us wages and has cost some people their jobs. Like the medical issue raised before sometimes peoples lives and livlihoods cost more to protect than is viable by market standards. Such a mercenry attitude to others does not fit my worldview. I realsie "no man is an island... "

by **Dreams End** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:45 am

Think John Galt moved to Somalia?

by **Gouda** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:40 am

No way, and wasn't it that Murray Rothbard himself rounded out his days at UNLV on a state-subsidized golf course? This guy, however -- Italian libertarian, tax-evader, entrepreneur -- did move to Somalia in 1984: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>First at the scene of the shooting, this guy: Giancarlo Marocchino, an Italian citizen and 50-something trucking magnate from Genoa who had made his home in Mogadishu since 1984 when he went into exile after being indicted for tax evasion. He married a Somali woman from the clan that now controls north Mogadishu, and settled in. If Giancarlo were to set foot in Italy today he would be arrested, but in north Mogadishu he became a good friend to, and important source of intelligence for, the Italian military. The U.S. military, on the other hand, once, briefly, had him thrown out of Somalia. U.S. intelligence was sure that Giancarlo was getting rich selling guns to the warlords. At one point an American intelligence officer suspected that weapons confiscated by the Italian military were sold to Giancarlo who then reconditioned them and sold them back on the streets.<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://www.netnomad.com/ilaria.html">www.netnomad.com/ilaria.html</a> What shooting? Marocchino figures heavily in the Segrena-like hit on Italian journalist Ilaria Alpi and her camerman Miran Hrovatin - journalists working for Italy’s RAI3 who were killed in Mogadishu, Somalia on 20 March 1994. <a href="http://www.ifex.org/en/content/view/full/9887?PHPSESSID=">www.ifex.org/en/content/v...PHPSESSID=</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Alpi and Hrovatin, RAI special envoys in Somalia, were killed on 20 March 1994 by a group of seven Somalian militiamen, while riding in a car in Mogadishu. A book titled "The execution", published in January 1999 and written by Alpi's parents, Giorgio and Luciana, Member of Parliament Mariangela Gritta Grainer, a member of the parliamentary commission of inquiry examining the Italian mission in Somalia, and Maurizio Torrealta, an RAI journalist, theorises that the two journalists were allegedly killed because they had inquired about an international arms and toxic waste traffic ring which implicated high-level political, military and economic spheres in both countries. The Italian Secret Services (SISMI) were notably implicated in this ring… The Alpi family's lawyer, named Calvi, notably drew the judge's attention to the disappearance of the journalist's notes, camera and videocassettes, which she had recorded while in Somalia.<hr></blockquote> Anyway, quite a web (warlords, private interests, SISMI et al.) and there are even players which tie into the Prince Vittorio Emanuele group arrests. But that for another thread... Now, without coercive government and inept, lazy, stinking, crappy bureaucrats (don't like 'em either, but it is really hard to bring myself to string along more than one nasty adjective) guys like Marocchino would be useless nothings.

by **Gouda** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:08 pm

Perhaps this is why Roth never mentions the World Bank in the detested company of IMF and the Fed etc....the WB supports, to an extent, what he is saying about private enterprise in Somalia: <a href="http://rru.worldbank.org/Documents/PapersLinks/280-nenova-harford.pdf">rru.worldbank.org/Documen...arford.pdf</a> "Anarchy and Invention - How does Somalia's Private Sector Cope without Government?" <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Conclusion The achievements of the Somali private sector form a surprisingly long list. Where the private sector has failed—the list is long here too— there is a clear role for government interventions. But most such interventions appear to be failing. Government schools are of lower quality than private schools. Subsidized power is being supplied not to the rural areas that need it but to urban areas, hurting a well-functioning private industry. Road tolls are not spent on roads. Judges seem more interested in grabbing power than in developing laws and courts. A more productive role for government would be to build on the strengths of the private sector. Given Somali reliance on clan and reputation, any measures allowing these mechanisms to function more broadly would be welcome; credit and land registries would be a good start. And since Somali businesses rely heavily on institutions outside the economy, international and domestic policies supporting such connections would help. For governments and aid agencies, the capability of some business sectors to cope under the most difficult conditions should give hope and guidance in other reconstruction efforts. It may take less encouragement than is commonly thought for stripped-down systems of finance, electricity, and telecommunications to grow.<hr></blockquote> Somehow I just don't trust the World Bank - "less encouragement" indeed. They are, however, not quite as radical as Roth, even a little more nuanced, since they do see some need for government, albeit not at the expense of a potentially thriving private sector (which of course, when up and running, gets integrated into the global marketplace, whereby regular people are once again bought out and exploited...) In fact they conclude that "A more productive role for government would be to build on the strengths of the private sector." Hey, that's basically what we've got in the USA! I am still not sure why Roth is against the US government since it has or is further privatizing everything, deregulating, opening up new global markets, and is essentially indistinguishable from any corporate enterprise. If only the World Bank could have this luck, say, in Kosovo, where privatization (of Serbian assets) is *curses* stalled by old Serbian laws and bureaucratic wrangling. But there is this fabulous, free cafe/restaurant/prostitution/contraband/drugs-and-arms sector thriving in Kosovo... Back to Somalia: UNICEF, UNHCR and UNDP report endemic poverty, illiteracy, & malnutrition despite the mixed blessings of 10 years of unregulated private enterprise. Heck...at least they've got internet and cell phones, which are human rights. I am not saying the former government of Siyad Barre was a good thing, I am saying that you can't possibly say that one system is better than the other when talking about Somalia. Perhaps there are better ways (on edit: of course there are better ways!) requiring a little of this and a little of that. While I would admit some positive aspects of libertarianism and free enterprise (mainly in the realms of art, music, education) Roth will never admit that some form of impartial, accountable governmental regulation, oversight and restraint can be beneficial, if honest, in a large, complex society. Venezualans ain't complaining (well, maybe the poor, poor capitalist elite are.) As far as Somalia is concerned, I would not presume to interfere or advise their best course - I just know what no one needs: capitalist exploitation or totalitarian government. I hope the Somalis can work it out and live in peace without the outside influence/interference of both foreign governments/agencies AND global capital interests - and without the scourge of bad governments and warlordism. More power to them if such quasi-anarchy is working for them. But it isn't, really. Plus, there are too many hands in the jar, too many cats in Somalia's sandbox for us to truly see this heavily tainted and scarred "country" as a clear test case for this or that ideology. So, sorry, the Somalia example (which has never experienced a good government and cannot rely entirely on the free market or private enterprise) is not convincing me that anarcho-capitalism is a place where I'd want to entrust my children. Next? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 6/21/06 12:19 pm

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:27 am

Next indeed.

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