Toronto 'suicide bomber' dies in donut shop

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:50 pm

Dunno what to make of this yet. Yonge and Bloor is  the major subway hub. If this wasn't an elaborate suicide, but a premature suicide bomber, I wonder if that was the intended target. Though a bomber couldn't pick a more iconic target than Tim Hortons. One's just opened in Kandahar, I believe, since Canada's stepped it up in Afghanistan. Man blows self up at Toronto Tim Hortons A man died Sunday after an explosion in the washroom of a Tim Hortons doughnut shop in downtown Toronto, police said. They did not immediately confirm reports, by radio station AM-640, that a man had entered the washroom shortly before the blast with explosives strapped to his body. ... The blast happened at the shop east of Yonge Street and north of Bloor, one of the busiest intersections in the city, at around 1 p.m. local time. Traffic was tied up in the area and Yonge Street was closed in both directions. Fire department spokesman Daryl Fuglerud said the man had burns to his body. <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060402.wblast0420/BNStory/National/home">globeandmail</a> <img src="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060402.wblast0420/BNStory/National/home" style="border:0;"/>

by **hmm** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:59 pm

based on the information in the article.. the danger in a bomb is not so much the explosives but the detonator which is more volatile, the professional way to do things (from published accounts) is to not connect the detonator too the explosives until just before use. even the suicide bomber doesnt want to die for nothing. This is why the bathroom is interesting because i cant think of another more private place in a public space, so ideal for preparing the detonator. The article states the bomber had burns to his body,this also suggests it might be that only the detonator exploded. If this had been a successful suicide bomb one would expect there to be little left of the bomber or his target? the article has little mention of damage to the building and there were no other victims. I would be looking at the surrounding area for the bombers intended target. If this was a suicide bomber.

by **nashvillebrook** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:24 pm

it's not been a common thing here. there's an 'it-can't-happen-here' factor. will be interesting to follow. reminds me though, of the Judi Bari (earthfirst) thing. it almost sounds like the person was isolating himself. or maybe he stepped in the restroom to arm it (or disarm it) discreetly and set himself on fire.

by **Gouda** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:46 am

<a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/02/canada.blast.reut/index.html">edition.cnn.com/2006/WORL...index.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Man dies in coffee shop 'wall of flames' Monday, April 3, 2006 Posted: 1313 GMT (2113 HKT) Firefighters investigate an explosion at a Tim Horton's doughnut shop Sunday in Toronto, Ontario. TORONTO, Ontario (Reuters) -- A man was killed in a "wall of flames" in a downtown Toronto coffee shop on Sunday, after a device exploded inside a washroom, according to police and eyewitnesses. Eyewitness Jenny Phillips said she heard bangs -- like pops from a firecracker -- and a scream "that will haunt me forever" as she left the washroom area in the Tim Hortons shop, an iconic Canadian coffee and doughnut chain recently spun off from parent company Wendy's International Inc.  She smelled burned powder, and saw there was a "wall of flames" inside the men's washroom before staff herded some two dozen customers outside. "I thought the roof was caving in. People were screaming," she told Reuters. (Watch for witness accounts of the blast -- 1:10) Toronto police chief Bill Blair told reporters that a device in the washroom had caused a flash fire, and the unidentified male victim had suffered severe burns.  "It appears that there has been a very hot and intense fire in the enclosed area within the washroom," Blair said. "We are still very preliminary in our investigation to determine the cause of this fire, and we are still determining whether or not this was a purposeful act or an accident." Police closed off a busy block close to one of Toronto's main shopping districts for a large part of the day as they investigated the cause of the fire. They used a robot to trigger a controlled explosion after finding a suspicious package near the coffee shop, but that package was harmless. "It appears there was a device, but we don't know whether the person brought it in with him, or it he was an innocent party, or if he was a suicide, we just don't know," Staff Sergeant Don Cole said of the device inside the restaurant. "It's not something that just blew up by itself, it was some device." Police also evacuated a second Tim Hortons further away from Toronto's downtown core after a suspicious package was reported, but Cole said that seemed to be merely a precaution.<hr></blockquote>

by JD » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:48 am

Very interesting. <a href="http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1143976356783&call_pageid=968350130169&col=969483202845">www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs...9483202845</a> "There's been nothing to suggest any type of terrorist activity," he said. "Absolutely." "He's not a strap-on Al Qaeda bomber guy," Cole said. "It sounds to me like a guy who either wanted to do a torch job or commit suicide. And it sounds kinda like a real explosion from the reports, no? Read the account below: <a href="http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=36671">www.wgrz.com/news/news_ar...ryid=36671</a> "Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair described the incident as “a fire in the washroom”, not a bombing. " <a href="http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1144101012593&call_pageid=968350130169&col=969483202845">www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs...9483202845</a> "Police have said the fire was not the work of a terrorist, nor was it ever thought to be such an act." "Although police believe they know the name of the dead man, no formal identification has been made." I find the lack of identification of the "bomber" curious. Also the downplaying of the incident; the immediate assessment that it wasn't a terrorist incident. Amazing how much authorities know prior to doing investigations, eh? Are they basing this assessment on racial profiling, ie do they "know" he isn't a "terrorist" because he isn't Arabic? Might this be a false-flag incident that's gone wrong? A Canadian Meiring or Lavon incident? The observations above are interesting. Any more word on this story in TO, Jeff?

by JD » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:07 pm

NOTE: “We're still working on the identity of the deceased, and I can't say if we'll be releasing that information even if it is established." Interesting, I can’t imagine a legitimate reason to withhold the identity. $$$$$$$ <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060405.wxtims05/BNStory/National/home">www.theglobeandmail.com/s...ional/home</a> Coffee-shop death a suicide, police say JEFFREY HAWKINS From Wednesday's Globe and Mail TORONTO — Police say the man who died in an explosion and flash fire at a downtown Tim Hortons restaurant that caused police to shut a part of the busy Yonge and Bloor area committed suicide. Based on the evidence gathered at the scene from the coffee shop -- one of the busiest in Toronto -- and several eyewitness reports, investigators concluded that the incident Sunday afternoon was not accidental. "Through various aspects of the investigation we have now determined that the injuries leading to the man's death were self-inflicted," Detective Sergeant Myron Demkiw said yesterday. "We're still working on the identity of the deceased, and I can't say if we'll be releasing that information even if it is established." The flash fire ignited inside the men's washroom of the restaurant on Yonge Street, just north of Bloor Street, sending startled patrons and employees out onto the street as smoke and flames shot out from under the washroom door and part of the ceiling collapsed. Police have said they believe gasoline in a canister ignited in the washroom. An autopsy Monday on the man's severely burned body concluded that he died of smoke inhalation. The only other information that has been released about him is that he was not an employee of the coffee shop. Det. Sgt. Demkiw said the investigation is continuing but would not comment on the forensic evidence that has been recovered from a white sedan towed from a parkade behind the Hudson's Bay Co., about two blocks from the Tim Hortons shop.

by JD » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:56 pm

We’ll probably hear very little else about this. It smells to me. If you get any local Toronto news or scuttlebutt on this please let us know Jeff. So he may have been foreign as his family “is believed to be out of the country” Does committing suicide by immoliating yourself with gasoline cause an explosion loud enough to wake up people sleeping in nearby apartments? I guess it is “possible” but I think unlikely. I remember seeing video of someone immoliating themselves as a protest and they just caught fire and burned. That was outside, this was inside and enclosed area. A donut shop washroom is a very odd place to select to immoliate yourself. At least the police didn’t have very far to go to respond. A few constables were probably wolfing down a few while this all transpired. Or maybe he just immoliated himself in dispair over the long Tim Horton's lineup. I can't get over how busy those flippin' places are. They must be putting something addictive in the coffee. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Tim Horton's explosion ruled a suicide Police say the explosion that killed a man inside the bathroom of a downtown Tim Horton's was a suicide. The man walked into the coffee shop around 1 o'clock Sunday afternoon armed with a small gas container. Inside the bathroom, he reportedly poured gas over his body and lit himself on fire. Police believe they know who the man is but are not releasing his identity as they have had difficulty notifying his next of kin. His immediate family is believed to be out of the country. Ontario's Deputy Chief Coroner said dental records or DNA analysis will be required to formally identify the man because he was burned extensively. <a href="http://www.680news.com/news/local/article.jsp?content=20060405_053630_2884">www.680news.com/news/loca...53630_2884</a>

by **anotherdrew** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:09 pm

an FBI agent planted that bomb, Judi even know's the main suspected agents name because a 'white hat' agent told her about the guy. I've heard her talk at length about the setup. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anotherdrew>anotherdrew</A> at: 4/6/06 8:10 pm

by JD » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:17 am

About that case. Just looked up a couple of links, haven't found out enough to determine anything. In any event, probably no link at all to the Donut Immoliation incident.

by **Sepka** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:07 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Does committing suicide by immoliating yourself with gasoline cause an explosion loud enough to wake up people sleeping in nearby apartments? I guess it is “possible” but I think unlikely.<hr></blockquote> In an enclosed space, it's quite possible. If the vapours permeate the air and explode, that's no different than a natural gas explosion. At the correct concentrations, gasoline vapours will explode with amazing violence. On the other paw, if the explosion were that loud, I'd expect substantial structural damage to the building as well. -Sepka the Space Weasel

by JD » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:51 am

Yeah, possible. But not likely. I watched the TV Show Mythbusters had a heck of a time getting any combustibles to explode in an enclosed space representing a toilet. Their experience with gasoline: "The water in the toilet is replaced with gasoline; again the cigarette yields nothing. The match does produce a flash and a fire, but nothing that will launch a person off of the toilet. " They got a good bang when they replaced gasoline with black powder though! <a href="http://www.mythbustersfanclub.com/html/exploding_toilet.html">www.mythbustersfanclub.co...oilet.html</a> My personal experience of doing jackass things as a teenager with too much time and access to gasoline and gunpowder is that gas burns and flashes and is DEADLY but a big explosion is unlikely. "Possible" but gosh unlikely.

by **Sepka** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:29 am

MythBusters seems by and large to be staffed by incompetents. I lost all confidence in that show when they explained that the coloured paint daub on the tip of a tracer round is phosphorus, and that it ignites by friction with the air. Seriously. It takes only a few minutes research to get that sort of thing right, but they don't spend even that amount of time on prep-work, it seems. Simply replacing the water with gasoline seems typically slipshod MythBusters work. Filling a toilet bowl with gasoline and expecting an explosion has several problems. More is not always better. For pump gasoline the explosive limit lies roughly between 1.5% and 7.5%. At lower concentrations not much will happen, and at slightly greater concentrations you'll get a fire. At very high concentrations, the gasoline vapour will actually smother the fire. When you fill the bowl with pure gasoline, you're going to saturate the air in the bowl way past the explosive limit rather rapidly. I'd expect a fire to occur that would hover around the top of the bowl, where the vapour concentration is low enough to allow it to burn. If I wanted an explosion, I'd try just a small amount (a teaspoon or so) on top of the water, then let it evaporate for ten or fifteen minutes before lighting it. That's way more likely to blow the bowl apart. The Space Weasel's youth was mis-spent. I can imagine someone pouring gas over himself and lighting it producing an explosion. I can't imagine that the blast would be loud enough to wake the neighbors without causing substantial damage to the building, though. A gasoline explosion front propagates at subsonic rates. For there to be an appreciable bang, there has to be a very large volume of air being displaced. If that happens in a sealed room like a restroom which has no windows, I'd really expect the walls or roof to be blown out. The Tim Horton's shop should have been badly damaged, if not more or less demolished. For there to have been a loud explosion, with no structural damage, tells me that the sound came from a small explosion with a supersonic blast front, such as one gets from a gun or a detonator. That fits well with the woman who heard firecracker-like popping. It's not unreasonable to assume that gasoline or some flammable fluid was involved, especially considering the "wall of flame", but that's probably not what woke the enighbors. -Sepka the Space Weasel Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sepka>Sepka</A> at: 4/7/06 4:01 am

by **FourthBase** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:01 am

Mythbusters is associated with the Skeptic/Randi crowd, FYI.

by JD » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:07 pm

Yeah, exactly what I've been saying. I'm glad you agree Possible, but not likely in the circumstances. Or are you saying the gasoline explosion hypothesis of the police is reasonable and acceptable? In my opinion it'd be very difficult/unlikely to get the conditions right to have a big gasoline-based explosion in the circumstances outlined by the media. As I said before, gasoline is highly volatile. As an example of gasoline based explosions, hypobaric bombs are gasoline based. Combustion in an internal combustion engine is a gasoline based explosion too. The trick is to get a decent sized volume at the correct fuel/air ratio. As you point out without a ratio in the correct range no combustion happens. In my opinion this event is not likely (but still possible as I've always said) while the guy was immolating himself. The only conclusive way to know for this situation would be to try to replicate the event in a replica of a Tim's bathroom, and see if you can get an explosion. As per using the link to the Mythbusters, don't bust my balls over it. At least I’m laying out some data points rather than only arm-waving and asserting. Bathroom, gasoline, testing difficulty and likelihood of explosion resulting from this combination. Not a bad point to consider in understanding the feasibility of the matter? Remember I'm talking about POSSIBILITIES here. So if these guys are trying to make an explosion and can't do it, does that not support my contention that the circumstances for an explosion to occur are unlikely to have arisen in this case? If you are contending that you could create the situation of a gasoline explosion I say that’s great for you! Your youth was truly misspent. As per the Mythbusters connection to the "skeptics"; does this mean that whatever they say or do is wrong by association? That is a difficult position to support in my opinion. I'm not gonna get into this any further wrt explosion probability - I've said the same thing all along and don't have time to say it again. I'm also not going to defend the "Mythbusters" as I frankly am not interested doing so and know bugger all about who they are associated with and unless someone can show me some intriguing tidbits about any anomalous association (ie love letters between Jamie and the Amazing Randy <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> ) I'm just not gonna get into it. Crap – I just “rolled up the rim” and got Please Play Again. Here’s a conspiracy for you – Tim’s has cut down the chances of winning big time from previous campaigns.

by JD » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:37 pm

Update: They've now found the family. And the family doesn't want the name released. Prior to finding the family, the police said they may never release the name, and "knew" that this wasn't an act of terror as soon as the incident occurred. I still find it odd they could assess that immediatly and prior to any investigation (just like I find it odd that some terror incidents are "figured out" so damned quickly!) Interesting, I'd think that in a public suicide involving an explosion it is in the public interest to divulge the identity, right? I know in "private" suicides that the identities are kept quiet and this is just fine, but this incident was anything but private. Note how the language is now "flash fire". No explosions being referenced anymore. I think we'll hear nothing else on the matter now, which is a shame. My antenna still lean towards the possibility of a false flag terror incident gone wrong. Without proper disclosure of events and the guy who died it is impossible to take any further. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Police identify man killed in Tim Horton's fire April 06, 2006 - 4:38 pm By: Anne Winstanley Toronto Police say they have now identified a man who died in a flash fire a downtown Tim Horton's on the weekend. But, at the request of the family, his name will not be released. Investigators have ruled the death was a suicide. The man walked into the coffee shop around 1 p.m. Sunday afternoon with a small gas container and went into the bathroom where he poured gas over his body and lit himself on fire. <a href="http://www.680news.com/news/local/article.jsp?content=20060406_163855_5256">www.680news.com/news/loca...63855_5256</a>

Toronto 'suicide bomber' dies in donut shop

Toronto 'suicide bomber' dies in donut shop

Re: i doubt it was the intended target

at the least, a habituation experience for the west

Re: at the least, a habituation experience for the west

"not a strap-on Al Qaeda bomber guy"

Identity May Not Be Released

Tim's Update

please don't tell me you think Judi Bari blew herself up...

Don't Know

Re: Don't Know

"Possible" But Not Likely

Re: "Possible" But Not Likely

Re: "Possible" But Not Likely

Glad You Agree

ID'd But Will Not Be Released

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