Steven E. Jones' theology: syncretism, subsumption,

[thoughtographer]

cultural vampirism, or what?<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext%20and%20figures.htm">Behold My Hands: Evidence for Christ's Visit in Ancient America</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>I'm not a bigot when it comes to Mormons; rather, I'm quite fascinated by their history and the influence they exert on world history at large. If it's important for a community like this to place so much weight on the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>alleged</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> "occult" beliefs of the so-called "elites", then it makes perfect sense to explore similar ideologies held by people who claim to be voices of opposition.<br><br>Clearly, <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://nowscape.com/fusion/cold-fusion_Steven_E_Jones_9-11_links.htm">this isn't a new discussion</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts and concerns about Jones vis-a-vis his interests and academic pursuits outside of his involvement in the "9-11 Truth" movement. I'll push this along with more references and thoughts if it seems like it will be worth it, but for now, I'll leave it at this. Any thoughts are appreciated. I'm sorry this is so scattered. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=thoughtographer>thoughtographer</A> at: 4/23/06 9:23 pm<br></i>

[Dreams End]

Lots of parapolitics around Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism. Freemason, visited by....someone or a vision. I imagine there's still some high weirdness in the higher circies. I don't have much info...just encouraging the digging. <p></p><i></i>

[tigre63]

Did Jesus visit the Mayans or did the Mayans visit Jesus? I havn't read any of Jone's theories so I can't say for sure, but in this article he describes Shamanism without acknowledging it, let alone just saying it. No wonder when organized religions main purpose with missionaries is to suppress Shamanism, and (correct me if I am wrong) LDS has more missionaries than any other church(I remember that from reading Under the Banner of Heaven).<br><br>I would be interested to know if Jones ever adresses Shamanism.I am going to do a little searching, but i won't be too optimistic. Also if other indeginous peoples have similar depictions, Aborigines, Inuits, Native Americans etc.<br><br>This guy is all about the LDS agenda in my opinion.<br><br>Yes, its cultural vampirism, again in my opinion.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

A good place to begin in terms of reading a critical history of the LDS Church is Jon Krakauer's <i>Under The Banner Of Heaven</i>. <br><br>On the political influence of some Mormons and their doings in the rise of the casino business in Nevada, check the index of <i>The Money And The Power</i>, by Roger Morris, and Sally Denton. <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I'd love to continue a broader discussion here about Mormon parapolitics at some point in the future, but I'm spread a little too thin to even outline my opinions and interests regarding that subject at the moment. I haven't read <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">Under The Banner of Heaven</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> yet, but that's basically because I already knew a lot of the material it covers from knowing Mormons in the past and reading primary sources. I'll definitely check out <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">The Money and the Power</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->, since I've always been "interested" in Las Vegas and its incredible influence on people.<br><br>Jones' beliefs do seem typical of modern Mormon millennialism, and I guess that was my primary motivation for starting this thread. It's hard to get a feel for the consensus opinions of Mormons, but I wonder how many Mormons subscribe to Jones' theories regarding the WTC attacks. The modern LDS church tends to encourage controversy, since it's free publicity for them and they have carefully prepared countermeasures for most concerns expressed by curious potential newcomers, and it's that sort of behavior that worries me. Don't get me wrong; I'm not out to persecute anyone's beliefs, and in fact have a lot of respect for a lot of the communitarian aspects of the early Mormon church. It's such a taboo these days to even consider someone's religious beliefs when evaluating their credibility, but in a case like this I tend to think it's important, because the work of people like Jones has the power to disrupt and fragment a research community that's been on unstable ground from the beginning. I guess my question is: is this line of thinking fair and reasonable? <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

[stickdog99]

I guess it depends on the color of his secret underware, now doesn't it? <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I guess it depends on the color of his secret underware, now doesn't it?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Nope.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Church priesthood leaders made it very clear that garments must never be altered and always worn as originally revealed by the Prophet Joseph Smith:<br><br> "Each individual should be provided with the endowment clothing they need. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The garments must be clean and white</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, and of the approved pattern; they must not be altered or mutilated, and are to be worn as intended, down to the wrist and ankles, and around the neck. These requirements are imperative; admission to the Temple will be refused to those who do not comply therewith."<br> - President Joseph F. Smith, "Instructions Concerning Temple Ordinance Work," President of the Salt Lake Temple 1898-1911<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

[mother]

Our 80-some year-old Encyclopedia Brittanica said that Joseph Smith was a freemason and that the LDS ceremonies were based on or the same as those performed in the lodge. <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Our 80-some year-old Encyclopedia Brittanica said that Joseph Smith was a freemason and that the LDS ceremonies were based on or the same as those performed in the lodge.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Yeah, that's an established fact at this point, though Smith claimed to be "restoring" the "true masonry" that allegedly existed before the modern masonic systems. There are a few exposees that show the entire endowment ceremony and other incidents of masonic symbolism and allegory within Mormon ceremony and attire; tracing their sources to specific masonic monitors and texts, and so on.<br><br>But -- that's pretty interesting about a 1920s Brittanica laying that out. I wonder how many (and which) editions that's in. It would be interesting to compare that with the politics of the times. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=thoughtographer>thoughtographer</A> at: 4/25/06 9:56 pm<br></i>

[mother]

I cannot date the encyclopedia; it was probably older than that, part of our family's library was destroyed in a fire. Since I still have many books circa 1860's I'm assuming this was pretty old...they had beautiful covers, and were wonderful for high school papers. I didn't realise the matter of Smith being a freemason was even being debated, but there is so much confusion of facts by<br> clever rascals; gotta choose your battles or go nuts. <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>cannot date the encyclopedia; it was probably older than that, part of our family's library was destroyed in a fire. Since I still have many books circa 1860's I'm assuming this was pretty old...they had beautiful covers, and were wonderful for high school papers. I didn't realise the matter of Smith being a freemason was even being debated, but there is so much confusion of facts by<br>clever rascals; gotta choose your battles or go nuts.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Okay, I was just going by your "80-some year-old" estimate. The Smith family's masonic affiliations weren't so much debated as they were obfuscated by, as you said -- clever rascals. The question of who those rascals really were (and are), and the underlying political motivations is a primary interest of mine. A post 1826 edition Britannica surely would have reflected the remnants of the U.S. anti-masonic fiasco that was fomented by the "Morgan Affair" in New York, which famously yields direct links to Smith -- with his relatively close proximity to Morgan in Batavia while he was living in Palmyra, and later, a much more direct connection by way of Lucinda (Pendleton, Morgan, Harris) Smith, one of Joseph Smith Jr's plural wives. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

A bit old and speculative, but still interesting:<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0507/S00222.htm">Suzan Mazur: Diebold & The Mormon Mason Handshake</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

[dude h homeslice ix]

the whole lamanites-as-indians thing is the single biggest dump truck load of horseshit the lds has to offer. nice try, but no way.<br><br>the missionaries showed me a video supporting this once, and it was bunko-mc-stunko. talk about cultural vampirism.<br><br>the los lunas decalogue stone i beleive to be a forgery propagated by mormons. <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>the whole lamanites-as-indians thing is the single biggest dump truck load of horseshit the lds has to offer. nice try, but no way.<br><br>the missionaries showed me a video supporting this once, and it was bunko-mc-stunko. talk about cultural vampirism.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I'm with you. I'd be interested in seeing that video. Could you give a brief synopsis? I'm also interested in vague impressions, notes about production values/quality and so on.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>the los lunas decalogue stone i beleive to be a forgery propagated by mormons.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Could be, though it really could have been anyone, the location is right, and the fact that the person who showed the stone to Hibben in the first place was never identified. They haven't been identified, right? <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

[dude h homeslice ix]

ive seen it myself, got pics and everything. this was also the first time i had ever seen "real indian petroglyphs" as well, and even my amateur ass could tell the petroglyphs were much older and more worn looking than the stone. <p></p><i></i>