Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff
Doodad wrote:http://www.franciscan-archive.org/columbus/opera/excerpts.html
The link has a more original version of the crap posted by Chlamor. You may wish to look it over before you buy too much of his usual misinformation.
http://www.franciscan-archive.org/columbus/opera/excerpts.html
The link has a more original version of the crap posted by Chlamor. You may wish to look it over before you buy too much of his usual misinformation.
Joe Hillshoist wrote:Doodad wrote:http://www.franciscan-archive.org/columbus/opera/excerpts.html
The link has a more original version of the crap posted by Chlamor. You may wish to look it over before you buy too much of his usual misinformation.
What bits disinfo?
The paraphrasing of the stuff in your link or the rest?
AlicetheKurious wrote:http://www.franciscan-archive.org/columbus/opera/excerpts.html
The link has a more original version of the crap posted by Chlamor. You may wish to look it over before you buy too much of his usual misinformation.
You make a lousy troll, Doodad (not that I'm complaining).
You're too freaking lazy.
Seventhsonjr wrote:Wow, Howard Zinn is WRONG? The Fransiscans are RIGHT?
Chlamor citing Zinn is CRAP?
Jeez -
As a historical researcher the only legitimate source is the original documents of Columbus. Is it not possible that BOTH are wrong to some degree?
I'd have to read the original documents. But I would tend to trust Zinn more than the Francisans who may have edited out the hasty bits to protect the church or their order.
Fact is that warfare seems to be part of human nature.
But the lies about Native tribes in the "Americas" are manifold. And I know that their defense of their homes was often btural in response to the brutality they suffered.
But the fact remains that their was a genocidal annihilation and enslavement of millions, or tens of millions, by the Europeans.
Beginning (more or less) with Columbus's expeditions. (Sure the Vikings were here earlier and brutal too, but they got their asses kicked and left for the most part).There is strong evidence too of peaceful trade with the "Americas" prior to Columbus.
Ignorance of this history (due mostly to the Hollywoodization of it and the total neglect of it mostly otherwise) is criminally fostered in "Amercian" education.
Nevertheless, Columbus set the stage for European immigration to the "New World" - and so the events of that time are significant for all of us to remember when looking at our present as well as our pass.
La Genocidia Continua, however.
Holocfaust uis such a loaded word that I figure it might be better to stop using it altogether, though. In Israel most serious scholars use the term "Shoah" which I think is better. Holocaust implies an "offering to God" --- and Genocide surely should not be equated with any such thing in my opinion.
Sepka wrote:I'm curious. Of the people who think it was wrong to kill the indians and steal their land, how many feel so strongly that they're willing to give back their share of the loot, and go back to Europe?
KeenInsight wrote:Contradictory, don't you think? I myself am of Euro-Norwegian AND, to my surprise, Native American descent. Now, I have in no way participated in violence, genocide, bigotry, or racism against other peoples or cultures. So why would I "go back to Europe"? Sharing "loot" has nothing to do with it. It is simply important to have awareness.
As far as this topic goes, in general, certainly any holocaust or genocide should be studied to understand how easily people fall for ignorant hate towards others, past and present. I myself never found Columbus to be the "first explorer" hero of the Americas. Personally, I think Norwegians or Vikings were at least in the St. Lawrence Gulf or Maine area before any well known explorer like Columbus (an entirely different topic, I know).
I'm curious. Of the people who think it was wrong to kill the indians and steal their land, how many feel so strongly that they're willing to give back their share of the loot, and go back to Europe?
JIMENA
Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa
JIMENA’s mission is to advocate and educate about the history and plight of the Jews indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa.
In 1948, nearly 900,000 Jews - indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa - lived in what are now known as the "Arab States." ~ Today, 99% of these indigenous Jewish communities no longer exist. ~ Arab governments forced us to leave, confiscated our personal and communal property and stripped us of our citizenships.
Maurice/Moussa Wahba knew when it was time to leave his beloved homeland. It was 1939: “I saw the writing on the wall” he told me many times, the memory ever present in his mind. And how with his father’s blessing he accepted his older brother Jacques/Yacoub’s invitation to join his import-export business in Japan. In the same breath he always repeated, lest anyone forget, that the Wahbas were “real” Egyptians, rooted in Egypt for thousands of years, predating Islam.
Leaving Egypt was not on the mind of most Egyptian Jews in 1939. But dad was an intuitive, and always ahead of his time. He saw what was happening ---he saw how Hitler was being portrayed as a hero with bookstores featuring “Mein Kampf” in Arabic. He felt the change coming fast, the Jew was lumped in with resentment towards “foreigners” as a new nationalism took hold. Koranic distrust and diatribes against Jews were resurrected and concretized in Egypt.
The rest of the family, was exiled in l956. They fled their hometowns and cities of Mansoura, Cairo and Alexandria, penniless. They were forced to sign papers promising “never to return (to Egypt).” This humiliation my father did not have to directly experience. We were already settled in Japan and waiting (it took 20 years) to immigrate to the United States.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests