rigorousintuition.ca

This was my original post, appended below- surely you know of the various ideologies since you mentioned Keith Preston's brand of National Anarchism all of your own accord and indicated your support of it, recommended people to his site. Most people, of course, know little or nothing about any of this at all.

Are you in fundamental agreement with the perspective I express here?

American Dream » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:10 am wrote:National Anarchism is rightly considered crypto-fascist and crypto-racist. It exists within a larger milieu which includes Third Positionism/Terza Posizione , National Bolshevism, Autonomous Nationalism/Autonome Nationalisten, Nouvelle Droite, Ecofascism, Strasserite Nazism, etc.

These sort of trends are broadly fascist and fueled by racism and xenophobia. They represent one strategy of several used by the far right to package and market itself, given its general lack of credibility and support since Fascism's defeat in World War Two.

It should be obvious that propagating these sorts of currents is not acceptable at Rigorous Intuition. Given that Rigorous Intuition is an anti-fascist board, keeping clear on these issues is essential.

American Dream » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:12 pm wrote:This was my original post, appended below- surely you know of the various ideologies since you mentioned Keith Preston's brand of National Anarchism all of your own accord and indicated your support of it, recommended people to his site. Most people, of course, know little or nothing about any of this at all.

Are you in fundamental agreement with the perspective I express here?

American Dream » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:10 am wrote:National Anarchism is rightly considered crypto-fascist and crypto-racist. It exists within a larger milieu which includes Third Positionism/Terza Posizione , National Bolshevism, Autonomous Nationalism/Autonome Nationalisten, Nouvelle Droite, Ecofascism, Strasserite Nazism, etc.

These sort of trends are broadly fascist and fueled by racism and xenophobia. They represent one strategy of several used by the far right to package and market itself, given its general lack of credibility and support since Fascism's defeat in World War Two.

It should be obvious that propagating these sorts of currents is not acceptable at Rigorous Intuition. Given that Rigorous Intuition is an anti-fascist board, keeping clear on these issues is essential.

Nope. Go back to your original post on him in the 'judeophobia' thread (page 3), I neither brought him up nor indicated any support of NA.

I'm pretty sure you said you didn't want a debate, and I surely don't. I'm sick of hearing about NA, it's negligable

jakell » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:21 pm wrote:

American Dream » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:12 pm wrote:This was my original post, appended below- surely you know of the various ideologies since you mentioned Keith Preston's brand of National Anarchism all of your own accord and indicated your support of it, recommended people to his site. Most people, of course, know little or nothing about any of this at all.

Are you in fundamental agreement with the perspective I express here?

American Dream » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:10 am wrote:National Anarchism is rightly considered crypto-fascist and crypto-racist. It exists within a larger milieu which includes Third Positionism/Terza Posizione , National Bolshevism, Autonomous Nationalism/Autonome Nationalisten, Nouvelle Droite, Ecofascism, Strasserite Nazism, etc.

These sort of trends are broadly fascist and fueled by racism and xenophobia. They represent one strategy of several used by the far right to package and market itself, given its general lack of credibility and support since Fascism's defeat in World War Two.

It should be obvious that propagating these sorts of currents is not acceptable at Rigorous Intuition. Given that Rigorous Intuition is an anti-fascist board, keeping clear on these issues is essential.

Nope. Go back to your original post on him the 'judeophobia' thread (page 3), I neither brought him up nor indicated any support of NA.

I'm pretty sure you said you didn't want a debate, and I surely don't. I'm sick of hearing about NA, it's negligable

The central question is whether you are in fundamental agreement with my original post, or not.

If not, why not?

American Dream » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:18 pm wrote:Jakell, I'm not looking for a huge debate with you- I doubt it would result in either of us changing our minds- but I am wondering about your thoughts on my original post here regarding National Anarchism and other Third Positionist type stuff. I have no use for such things and see them in a very, very negative light.

How about you?

That's fortunate, for there will be no 'big debate'.
I originally described my relationship to NA as 'not my cup of tea'

This may have been confusing to foreigners who don't understand how seriously we English take that beverage (or about English understatement), so maybe some expansion is required. I would not wish to live in a community as homogenous as that I have seen described by some NA's, however, if they stick to the anarchist principles of voluntarism and non-interference then I can't find much to complain about in a practical sense.

The above is my personal relationship. The following is a more general statement of mine from earlier in this thread:

jakell » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:03 pm wrote:
The trouble with all the voluminous and shrill stuff about NA that's been posted on here is that it treats it like a really solid position, and I haven't really seen that in my travels, in fact I've only talked with one person who claims this position, it's quite vague and seems to mainly indicate a meeting point between right-leaning anarchists and possibly right wingers who claim to be anarchists, and TBH, I haven't seen such a meeting point that has any substance.

The only substance seems to be reinforced by so-called 'anti-fascists' who are using this unwieldy contraption to bolster their own 'anti' status. (this DIY 'hero' archetype is something I'm going to try and explore at a later date)

As regards 'Third Positionism', I barely know what it is and haven't seen it pushed in WN/WS circles, so it's probably another phantom like the above. I'm not interested in phantoms

I hope this has put the NA issue to rest because I'm very weary of hearing about it ad nauseum.

It's very hard to tell from everything you've written whether you are in fundamental agreement with my original post, or not.

Are you?

Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?

American Dream » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:35 pm wrote:It's very hard to tell from everything you've written whether you are in fundamental agreement with my original post, or not.

Are you?

Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?

I am not in agreement with it - I do not even think it qualifies as a statement that can be agreed with or not, as does not even parse.
YOU have not stated YOUR position on this subject clearly.
I invited you to upthread and you still have not.

American Dream, please state YOUR actual position on National Anarchism.
I have made mine perfectly clear. I think it's a load of rubbish for reasons I've already outlined.

I would appreciate you respecting that there is more than you and jakell in this thread and I am still waiting for an answer.

I will take a lack of response from you on this as meaning you have no wish to give a clear unambiguous statement of where YOU stand on the OP, only the 'Citizen Smith' Boilerplate you quoted.

Searcher08 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:59 pm wrote:

American Dream » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:35 pm wrote:It's very hard to tell from everything you've written whether you are in fundamental agreement with my original post, or not.

Are you?

Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?

I am not in agreement with it - I do not even think it qualifies as a statement that can be agreed with or not, as does not even parse.
YOU have not stated YOUR position on this subject clearly.
I invited you to upthread and you still have not.

American Dream, please state YOUR actual position on National Anarchism.
I have made mine perfectly clear. I think it's a load of rubbish for reasons I've already outlined.

I would appreciate you respecting that there is more than you and jakell in this thread and I am still waiting for an answer.

I will take a lack of response from you on this as meaning you have no wish to give a clear unambiguous statement of where YOU stand on the OP, only the 'Citizen Smith' Boilerplate you quoted.

I would consider what you're doing a distraction but I seem to have reached the end of the line with jakell anyway.

If you ask me some clear questions that indicate what more you want to know, I will strive to answer in a paragraph or two. Cutting and pasting select portions from your previous comments is perfectly acceptable to me.

That said, I don't think you should assume that I understand why you think it's a load of rubbish, as I've already told you that I found your postings less than fully comprehensible.

Does this mean we can put the overblown subject of NA to bed for the time being?

NA, Keith Preston and Attack the System have had more plugs on here in the last few weeks than in my whole time trawling WN sites over the last four years. I'm sure that is the opposite effect to what was was intended.

Even poor Searcher's been there to see what the fuss was about.

jakell » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:20 pm wrote:Does this mean we can put the overblown subject of NA to bed for the time being?

NA, Keith Preston and Attack the System have had more plugs on here in the last few weeks than in my whole time trawling WN sites over the last four years. I'm sure that is the opposite effect to what was was intended.

Even poor Searcher's been there.

Since you continue to be vague and elusive, that seems to be the order of the day. However, I doubt that you're unable to give a clearer response.

jakell » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:20 pm wrote: NA, Keith Preston and Attack the System have had more plugs on here in the last few weeks than in my whole time trawling WN sites over the last four years. I'm sure that is the opposite effect to what was was intended.

You weren't very concerned about this when you were plugging him here, were you?

Anyway, your post- which hit off alarms because I had already read this article- inspired me to greatly increase my knowledge of anti-fascist perspectives, which has been to the common good, in many, many ways.

Though it's doubtful you and I agree much about who is and isn't an anti-fascist, I'd say it's on the whole, very positive.

Searcher08 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:59 pm wrote: I will take a lack of response from you on this as meaning you have no wish to give a clear unambiguous statement of where YOU stand on the OP, only the 'Citizen Smith' Boilerplate you quoted.

Now there's an obscure UK reference. I wonder how many got that one.

I just wrote a really long detailed set of questions in response to your OP, AD

It took about an hour
After posting I got this appear in my Firefox address bar
http://rss2search.com/nohost.php?url=ri ... =8&t=37786
and
502 Bad Gateway
in my browser window

and lost all the post.
I'll do a quick ADI

Agree
I think NA could lead to things I do not want to see and those include homogeneous states.
There are aspects of too much decentralisation that can lead to collapse of the whole (societal 'cancer') in summary, NA is just rubbish or more specifically - non-viable.

Disagree
You crit didnt do it for me.
Your binary 'agree with me or not' didnt float my boat as I think NA AND your argument against it are both really weak.
The tone was getting a bit Cardassian for me.

Irrelevant
Dont we have bigger fish to fry than this?
My network problems aint no one elses but losing a long post is dispiriting

Exits Thread Stage Left, flinging flans.

Peace

Searcher08 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:27 pm wrote: Agree
I think NA could lead to things I do not want to see and those include homogeneous states.
There are aspects of too much decentralisation that can lead to collapse of the whole (societal 'cancer') in summary, NA is just rubbish or more specifically - non-viable.

Disagree
You crit didnt do it for me.
Your binary 'agree with me or not' didnt float my boat as I think NA AND your argument against it are both really weak.
The tone was getting a bit Cardassian for me.

Irrelevant
Dont we have bigger fish to fry than this?

I noticed you didn't mention Racism, Fascism, etc. in relation to National Anarchism- which is to me like talking about bacon but not mentioning the pig.

As to your understanding of my alleged binary 'agree with me or not' perspective- you did not understand.

While I did write this for the board as a whole, it was specifically intended for jakell, as a thumbnail statement of position, to which he could have said "I agree with this, but I don't agree with that", "Yes but also..." etc. Of course, he failed miserably on that count.

As to "bigger fish to fry"- yes, and sustaining this as a clearly anti-fascist board is very important, too. Also, as I indicated previously, this has been an important process in upping the anti-fascist understanding quotient. Which is all to the good, as far as I am concerned.

American Dream » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:45 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:27 pm wrote: Agree
I think NA could lead to things I do not want to see and those include homogeneous states.
There are aspects of too much decentralisation that can lead to collapse of the whole (societal 'cancer') in summary, NA is just rubbish or more specifically - non-viable.

Disagree
You crit didnt do it for me.
Your binary 'agree with me or not' didnt float my boat as I think NA AND your argument against it are both really weak.
The tone was getting a bit Cardassian for me.

Irrelevant
Dont we have bigger fish to fry than this?

Point 1
I noticed you didn't mention Racism, Fascism, etc. in relation to National Anarchism- which is to me like talking about bacon but not mentioning the pig.

Point 2
As to your understanding of my alleged binary 'agree with me or not' perspective- you did not understand.

Point 3
While I did write this for the board as a whole, it was specifically intended for jakell, as a thumbnail statement of position, to which he could have said "I agree with this, but I don't agree with that", "Yes but also..." etc. Of course, he failed miserably on that count.

Point 4
As to "bigger fish to fry"- yes, and sustaining this as a clearly anti-fascist board is very important, too. Also, as I indicated previously, this has been an important process in upping the anti-fascist understanding quotient. Which is all to the good, as far as I am concerned.

Point 1 - I'm not sure what this means. I have Googled it. You also used the expression with me
"That's like talking about hamburger without mentioning the cow" and a Google on that brings me to pages of... Oprah Winfrey being sued by Texan cattlemen.
I could speak for hours about bacon and not mention pigs.
One is food science, the other is biology or all sorts of views - like anatomy vs physiology

I consider NA structurally non-viable and lacking systemic cohesion. I want to re-emphasize I was very clear that it could LEAD TO potentially elite-entrenching Apartheid 2.0 scenarios.

Point 2
I separate the meaning from intention - the meaning of your communication for me is my response. It is over a my end, the meaning is made in my head. The intention is at your end.
I find a very useful approach is that if your intention sent doesnt equal my meaning received - that is an invitation to vary your communication until it does. Kind of a dance metaphor - if you want to lead me , you will need to be dancing in harmony first. Otherwise it ends up just dragging the person across the floor, if you get my drift.

Point 3
Phrasing him as 'failing miserably' when he was under threat of suspension. That's not entirely fair, AD I asked him about my (somewhat withering) assessment of NA and he agreed with a lot of it.

Point 4 and 5
A first time visit to a new club or group can be a little daunting for most people.
When you say this is an 'anti-fascist board', each member of RI will have a different understanding of that. I have wondered if have you see those words is how they might be used in your day to day activist / left wing work, where I imagine they mean you ONLY ally with people who are specifically approving a set of policies. I don't see RI like that at all
I see it as being... REALLY personal - like my own vow... I S08, while I am on R.I. will NEVER put up with any other member being put down or badly treated for being Irish, a woman, a gay, a Brit, a non-white, a Jew, a decent entrepreneur, a caring healer, a writer or performer of conscious or for being a holist.
For me there is also asking, am I making the environment welcoming from the first 'customer touch-point' and a fun place to be. I think that has been neglected here for some time and aspire to see a friendlier environment.

Searcher08 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:32 pm wrote:
Point 1 - I'm not sure what this means. I have Googled it. You also used the expression with me
"That's like talking about hamburger without mentioning the cow" and a Google on that brings me to pages of... Oprah Winfrey being sued by Texan cattlemen.
I could speak for hours about bacon and not mention pigs.
One is food science, the other is biology or all sorts of views - like anatomy vs physiology

I consider NA structurally non-viable and lacking systemic cohesion. I want to re-emphasize I was very clear that it could LEAD TO potentially elite-entrenching Apartheid 2.0 scenarios.

Right, but you didn't quite say that, and I'm pointing out that- in my view- National Anarchism is integrally connected to racism and fascism. It derives from those principles and is intentionally designed to strengthen race and power hierarchies, at minimum. That's a most fundamental point.

Point 2
I separate the meaning from intention - the meaning of your communication for me is my response. It is over a my end, the meaning is made in my head. The intention is at your end.
I find a very useful approach is that if your intention sent doesnt equal my meaning received - that is an invitation to vary your communication until it does. Kind of a dance metaphor - if you want to lead me , you will need to be dancing in harmony first. Otherwise it ends up just dragging the person across the floor, if you get my drift.

I don't buy this in this case- there was nothing in what I wrote that should lead you to assume this. I'm more of the school that "when you assume, you make an ass of you and me".

Point 3
Phrasing him as 'failing miserably' when he was under threat of suspension. That's not entirely fair, AD I asked him about my (somewhat withering) assessment of NA and he agreed with a lot of it.

Of course I understand that he could be afraid of suspension. That doesn't change the fact of how evasive he has been about these things, and for how long. I'm certainly not going to pretend this isn't so.

Point 4 and 5
A first time visit to a new club or group can be a little daunting for most people.
When you say this is an 'anti-fascist board', each member of RI will have a different understanding of that. I have wondered if have you see those words is how they might be used in your day to day activist / left wing work, where I imagine they mean you ONLY ally with people who are specifically approving a set of policies. I don't see RI like that at all
I see it as being... REALLY personal - like my own vow... I S08, while I am on R.I. will NEVER put up with any other member being put down or badly treated for being Irish, a woman, a gay, a Brit, a non-white, a Jew, a decent entrepreneur, a caring healer, a writer or performer of conscious or for being a holist.
For me there is also asking, am I making the environment welcoming from the first 'customer touch-point' and a fun place to be. I think that has been neglected here for some time and aspire to see a friendlier environment.

I think the guidelines are fairly clear and I don't actually think jakell is any sort of dummy. Treating people in a biased way is of course a problem. A pet peeve of mine is how heavily gendered the style of communication can be here, for example. That said, sustaining a board that is not propagating white supremacist and/or neo-fascist causes is incredibly important.