guruilla » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:35 pm wrote:A few things here: first off, is it ipso facto unthinkable that the code for CP used on 4Chan might also pop up in Podesta/Alefantis circles, especially considering we don't know the origin of the code?
Oh god no. I can think a lot of things. I think about the best things. But it hasn't been demonstrated to have occurred, as it has yet to be demonstrated that "cheese pizza" is used as slang for CP outside of 4chan at all. And your hypothetical assumes from the outset that Podesta/Alefantis are pedophiles - I mean, why else would you allow that they might be using pedo-code? Carts and horses, and the order thereof.
And it was interesting, if slightly discursive. I will stipulate that crude codes are used by criminals who desire their wiretap transcripts to be non-incriminating.
Also, even if the code-word first showed up on 4chan, 4Chan is not an island, not some impenetrable zone that's immune to seeding, nor does it exist in a bubble with no interest in/awareness of pedophilia-activities. On the contrary, there's an overlap there, both benign and malign (4chan/Anon hackers looking to bust open pedo-rings, and Brockian shillbots looking to hijack and harness 4chan energy & memes).
My friend, I have been to 4chan before. Lots of anons are into child porn, lots of anons are very young themselves, hence... anon. Sure.
Secondly, is this pizza-code bit the source of the theory or is it only what sparked the investigation? Because the two things are different. I already addressed this before, what caused collective attention to be directed toward CPP shouldn't really be relevant when it comes to assessing the veracity of any evidence that was found because of that.
Houses built on sand, and all that. If the "investigation" had teeth, I wouldn't care about the genesis. I wouldn't care that the first piece of "diligent investigation"" was likely meaningless. Look, you said:
- "I am not stating that these data-points prove anything, individually or even collectively. I am stating that they are highly suggestive and that any case for #Pizzagate as a "scam," "demonstrably false," a hoax, smear campaign, or "psyop" requires at least as much evidence to support it as what's listed here"
Fine. So we look at the evidence piece by piece and examine each piece's veracity or plausibility. Presumably, that is the challenge here. So. I started at the top of the voat summary, and, I think, pretty much crossed the first paragraph or so off as unreliable (to me), because I haven't yet seen evidence that supports it - just supposition. And no teeth to gain my forgiveness of that lack.
Lastly, are we all missing something here by continuously addressing the question of the actual source of #Pizzagate as an either/or question: either it's real pedo-crimes coming to light via the diligent investigations of independent outsiders, or it's a manufactured narrative created pretty much whole cloth by insiders for political ends. Of my original two votes, one was for "An Orchestrated Exposé to Destabilize Power Structures." I changed my vote because no one else was ticking that box so it seemed like a lost cause. Now I see it has two votes, so that's progress.
Yes, you are missing several options I can think of in your either/or formulation, e.g., could pizzagate have been created by a bunch of /pol/ anons semi-satirically feeding off each other, and Pepe, and kek, and allowing chan-centric touchstones (cheese pizza) to create their initial suspicions of the Podesta emails as referring to child trafficking, and then just speculatively running with it? The cool thing about this option is that it doesn't require a conspiracy, either of pizza eaters or narrative manufacturers. It simply requires the quality of becoming viral.
This can actually be tested, I would think. If there exist /pol/ threads discussing the pedo-coding of Podesta's emails before the 30th of October, it might be meaningful.
My point is this: I see #Pizzagate as pointing to real crimes being brought to light involving real perps and real victims. But, I also do not think it has come about randomly through a combination of the sloppiness of the black hats with the determination & diligence of the white hats. I think it's been at least partially foreseen/allowed to happen, and partially directed towards longer-term goals, maybe a combination of damage control/opportunism, cold calculation/ruthless manipulation, and sheer desperation bordering on panic, depending what level of the hierarchy we're peering in on.
Believe me, I know you see it that way, but it's conjecture. But there are, within pizzagate, actual ideas that are not speculation. We know there is elite pedophilia. We know of the Clinton/Epstein relationship. Real stuff.
-ing.