What constitutes Misogyny?

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compared2what?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by compared2what? »

Plutonia wrote:And I take issue at being characterized anti-feminist, c2w? because I've been so careful not to be oppositional, and because I also consciously positioned myself within the great tradition of the feminist's critique of feminism. What I have said is that I think Identity Politics is divisive, which surely has been demonstrated here. And that I don't think that "mere inclusion" in the institutions of the dominant culture is a workable or attractive solution. Where I come from that's called assimilation.
I apologize. You are sometimes unduly oppositional as I perceive it (as, for example, in your response to John Colapinto's "John/Joan" story, which I didn't understand as either an indictment of feminism or as a universal invalidation of the entire concept that common cultural views on gender influence our understanding of what it means to be male or female). But quite apart from the dubious reliability of our old friend, The Hopeless Subjectivity of Individual Perception, seriously, who isn't? At least sometimes? Not me, that's for damn sure.

Besides which, you're right. It's a totally unmerited and inaccurate characterization, with which I myself don't even personally agree, like, privately.

I'm very sorry. I quite literally don't know what, if anything, I could possibly have been thinking when I typed it.
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compared2what?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by compared2what? »

Plutonia wrote:
compared2what? wrote: I'm differently brained in ways that science can quantify, measure and remark on. just not in any particular way that's either recognized by science as a named condition (a la autism-spectrum conditions) or recognized by the world as much of anything at all. As a consequence, all thinking done by me is original of a necessity. It's not always high-quality original thinking, sadly. But it is always original. That has its pros and cons as a permanent aspect of being, in my experience of it. But it's absolutely nothing but a plus as a trait in others, as far as I'm concerned. I appreciate it...not exactly above all things, I guess.
Perhaps you are of this ilk of different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_sensitive_person


Edit for spelling
I absolutely LOVE that suggestion, since it's so very flattering that I always have to stifle the impulse to stop being myself and just sign on as a full-time HSP malingerer for all the rest of my days. Sadly, the truth is: In some key ways, yes, in other key ways, no. But it's definitely one of the top ilks of difference that aren't open to me to which I sometimes wistfully yearn to belong in a childish kind of a way. They're sort of like the ilks-of-difference equivalent of Heathers, from my perspective.

But what can you do? I gotta be me. FWIW, I also have a chronic medical condition that I've come to think of as Not-MS-Leukemia-or-One-of-the-Silent-Killer-Diseases Syndrome strictly as a matter of personal convenience, the number and variety of illnesses that I don't have being far too wide-ranging for me to review in full every single damn time.

I'm just chronically and existentially undiagnosable, basically. I have Diagnosis-Oppositional Conduct Disorder, with mixed baffling features. As does everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, I believe. It's my hypothesis (which is based on nothing) that neurotypicality is mostly just an undetected symptom of repressed neurodiversity that's been further screened from view by compensatory learned behaviors consequent on the initial repression.

I mean, could be, for all anyone knows. So why not?
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Canadian_watcher »

Plutonia wrote: But you yourself have provided the same solution I’m proposing in that link to handling narcissists- how’s that for irony?

I’ve re-worded it to reflect my position towards "handling" institutions of dominance:
...snip...
Fourthly, if you can not walk away for some reason, make sure you take advantage of the resources and support that's offered to assist look after your self esteem and self worth, and to teach you how to communicate and act towards [the dominant culture], in a means that gets the best outcome FOR YOU without bringing out the nastiest features of [the dominant culture].
I cannot walk away for various reasons. I do not live in a hinterland of ready abundance, and it gets cold here - really cold. My relatives' cultural heritage, which they tried to pass down to me, did include gardening, fishing and one incident of turtle wrangling but other than that were centered around the white anglo-saxon traditions: bus riding, grocery shopping, hockey watching, politics talking and a bit of party planning. As a result of this empty upbringing I became dependent on this culture, where I can pay for warmth and clothing and transport and medicine and food. It only got worse after I became a mother, since now there were two of us who needed those trappings.

Unfortunately as luck would have it my culture is under attack from things like taxes and rising commodity prices - working conditions are eroding, healthcare is failing, women are still not safe on the streets.. etc. My mode of existence is under threat.

None of this has to do with misogyny, except that really ALL of it does, in some ways. This culture sees fit to ignore, ridicule, exclude, punish and scapegoat women - half of all possibilities are rendered unreachable because of this. Misogyny is more than a hatred of women it is a hatred of anything considered 'feminine.' How best to elevate femininity, then?

I do not wish for women to simply become 'men in dresses' at the helm of corrupt organizations, although that is what you seem to think I am saying. That would still be a rejection of the feminine. I want the culture to change to adopt the feminine into everything it does. I want the cultural 'take' on femininity to change. I don't see how that can be accomplished by vowing to stay out of the culture. If it worked, wouldn't Convents be the answer? We should all become nuns. That would surely cure all the worlds ills.

EDIT: forgot this part: Even if I and hordes of other people excluded ourselves from the culture to begin to carve out a new niche that was more secure, self-sufficient and egalitarian, what would stop the dominant culture from trampling all over it? Any way I look at it it just doesn't work. I've spent the entire day listening to historical commentary an various socialist movements the world over and they only work for a short while if they work at all. It would seem that dominant culture stays dominant - and always has.
Plutonia wrote:It might surprise you C_W that I, at one time went to see Gloria Steinem speak and that I enjoyed it very much and was not the least critical.
It doesn't surprise me at all because I know you to be a person who has come up with feminism but transcended it - you said so yourself. This whole identity politics thing is divisive, you said. I remember.
Plutonia wrote:The thing she said that night that has stayed with me is that working class women have more freedom to define themselves and live creatively, than more privileged women professionals, who experience more pressure to conform to standards of appearance, sexuality, lifestyle, values etc. That does seem to be the case, which makes the “lower class” an invaluable site of resistance to the dominant culture, and thus can help make a safer, fairer social order for women- don’t you agree?
This is kind of funny, because it illustrates how there is just no pleasing everybody. I'm positive that Steinem has been criticised for saying that. The whole 'liberal feminist - upper class vs everyone else thing.'

I do agree, however, that there is a freedom in having little to lose. There is, but then I get caught up on what if that thing I had left to lose was my only pair of warm socks which I need for my nights at the shelter. I find it difficult to believe that I could be more effective if I were poorer.

Something else that is funny about this whole 'reject all of the traditional power systems' notion you are advancing is that you said earlier "I'll write later because I have a job to go to every day." (I'm paraphrasing). I thought it was a shot at me because I don't have a traditional job, but I guess that it might be a compliment! I'm an outsider! Yay! A creative non traditionalist! yee-haw!

I'm using my outsider status to try and create a "safer, fairer social order for women."
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Project Willow »

Plutonia wrote: I agree with one reservation. Those adults are doing essentially what that baby is doing, not much difference besides the leotards, motor skills and the impulse to display, so is that infantile behavior and if so, might it not be considered maladaptive?
No, they're not doing the same exact thing. Besides, how on earth can it be considered maladaptive to emulate the behavior of an adult who is perceived by a majority of society to be ridiculously successful and to therefore be enjoying all of the benefits and privileges of her station (save for where misogyny may knock her down here and there) that is, if you're only addressing the mimicry aspect? The mimicry itself isn't the problem, it's which behaviors the others chose to mimic. They should try mimicking her confidence or business acumen perhaps. So, no, figuring out and then copying what the most successful individual is doing is pretty damn adaptive behavior for social animals.
Plutonia wrote:That's funny because Girard's theory points to the opposite- that none of us is immune to the violence of our natures and that the unification and peace that civilization is built and sustained on, is due to sacrificial violence and scapegoating. The lie we tell ourselves is that we would never do it, that terrible thing that those other people over there did or are doing. But of course we do, in small difficult to see ways sure, but that impulse to persecute can easily flare into events like the Rwandan genocide. Mimesis makes us a danger to each other.
The opposite? And I thought I enjoyed being oppositional. You haven't heard my theory yet, at least wait until I present it, and that's going to take awhile, because I also have job(s) I have to work.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Plutonia »

Thanks you for your responses and bon homie ladies. I'm going to get to them right after I tend to my garden.

But for now, I'll just say that I've done something in the heat of the moment that I regret, which is the thing that's often done to validate one voice above another, which is the equivalent of "playing the race card" oh wait! I did play the race card, too! Ergh.

I'd rather that what I have to say to stand or fall on it's own merits without special consideration as a result of having identified as a this or a that (even though I do tend to throw my autieness around pretty casually :? )

YOU'LLDROVEMETOIT!!!!

kidding

be back soon
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Joe Hillshoist »

I've been away for a while and missed the worst of the shitfight on this thread. Apologies if this has been dealt with before etc etc.
The thing she said that night that has stayed with me is that working class women have more freedom to define themselves and live creatively, than more privileged women professionals, who experience more pressure to conform to standards of appearance, sexuality, lifestyle, values etc. That does seem to be the case, which makes the “lower class” an invaluable site of resistance to the dominant culture, and thus can help make a safer, fairer social order for women- don’t you agree?
- Plut

Same applies to men, thats why so many have worn suits for so long. I suspect womens "professional" clothing has the same function, to reinforce conformity with the economy basically. I read something the other day, a quote by Nina Powell, who was pointing out that the the image of a successful woman these days is one of what capital wants. (The "professional" class is part of the ruling class, and they expect conformity whatever gender/sex of the members cos thats what defines as the ruling class.)

Which fits with the glass ceiling. Its a subtle form of oppression.

Plutonia are you kind of suggesting that in some ways breaking the glass ceiling means moving from the role of oppressed to oppressor?

Cos you have a point. Really who gives a fuck if Gina Rinehart is a successful businesswomen, she is still evil as and the same sort of fascist capitalist scumfuck as Clive Palmer or Andrew Forrester (the 3 of them run mining cos in Australia.)

That would still be a rejection of the feminine. I want the culture to change to adopt the feminine into everything it does. I want the cultural 'take' on femininity to change. I don't see how that can be accomplished by vowing to stay out of the culture.
C_W

I dunno if Plutonia is talking about staying out of culture, or rejecting one aspect of it.

I'm not offering any answers either.

You all know Poolan Devi right? The "Bandit Queen". Everyone remembers her dacoity but it wasn't till she willingly surrendered, did her time then got elected that she really accomplished stuff that did some good in the world for lots of people. That series of decisions and what she did after is really amazing.

Thats a great example of what you're talking about actually I reckon C_W. Dunno how breaking the glass ceiling fits with that. Corporate success is a different thing from equal pay, rights and protections isn't it? (In practice anyway, I accept the principle that equal access to corporate success is a fundamental right and something that doesn't exist now.)
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

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My brother was murdered in a gruesome robbery attempt. A pregnant 15 year old daughter of a coworker of his was also murdered. They was killed by a group of teenagers. Something this event showed me is that not everything can be figured out and explained. But after the murder I was intensely concerned with trying to make sense of it.

One line of thinking might be lumped into a category of the Devil's spawn as an explanation. I sometimes wince at how ordinary it is to speak of people as predators. Partly it turns me sour because I tend to think of animals like lions and tigers when I think of predators. Speaking of people as "predators" belies the essentially honorable living which lions and tigers make. Another problem I have with this commonly employed the term is how it obscures the very human motivations involved in violence.

Another line of thinking addresses the prevalence of violence in the American South--the murders happened in Dixie--with a culture of honor. I think that the notion of a culture of honor in the southern USA is sometimes over-extended, still the idea of it somehow resonated in me.

I was born in the South, but my parents were both born in New England, so I was the outcast Yankee among my peers. Of course I wanted to fit in, boys want to fit in, but I discovered probably without and explicit understanding of the construct of culture, that fitting in was hard to do. I think--following Canadian Watcher's mention of "The Cult of True Womanhood" that there's a fairly general pattern across regions in the USA where woman have particular authority in the home. There's a fairly explicit sense that mothers are instrumental in propagating the culture through their children. My dilemma as a boy was the culture my mother was intent to cultivate in me and perpetuate was antithetical to the culture of honor the mother's of my peers were keen to.

If culture as a construct has meaning, it's clear that culture is mutable. As people we can aspire to better ways of being people and one happy side effect of such aspirations is that they offer us a view to some of the ways that culture frames our experience and even delimiting our aspirations.

Laurie Penny has a righteous rant up about the princess fantasies popular culture promotes among girls. http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/lauri ... ss-fantasy

Chris Dilley points to Penny's essay and then to one by The Heresiarch. (As an aside I would very much like to learn how to make embedded links here. How can I learn to do it?) Here is Dilley's post http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... ation.html and here's The Heresiarch http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... ation.html

Heresyarch writes:
Society wants little girls to identify with princesses, not because it expects them to aspire no higher than matrimony, but because the "conformist" qualities belittled by Laurie Penny are the very ones that promote success in life.
Penny's concern is that the problem with princess fantasies is they limit the possible lives of girls as they become adults and conversely The Heresiarch argues that the princess fantasy is helpful towards girls' future success. Dilley argues that their both right.

I rather like it that we here at RI pretend we like one another. Surely on some level most of us really do, but even when pretending it seems a good thing because perhaps that encourages more views to be shared. I don't think the arguments here are essentially rational arguments, few online forums seem well-suited to that. Within bounds we come to argue our positions and that's a good thing. Sometimes it gets dicey here as we seem to be a passionate and sensitive lot and some ideas seem inviolate.

Dilley argues that The Heresiarch is right that the sort of values that princess fantasies are thought to encourage are valuable in the capitalist order. The rub is they are valuable, but only to a point:
First, even in the realm of employment, there’s a downside to being a princess. Conformity might equip you well to do a mid-level job. But it deprives you of the aggressive competitive edge that will drive you to the top of the greasy pole.
Secondly, the personality templates that promote labour market success will chafe against some people more than others. This tension between being a good worker and pursuing one’s own conception of personal flourishing is one origin of Marxian alienation. Thirdly, the characteristics that allow one to do (moderately) well in the labour market are, of course, only a subset of all possible or even desirable human types. In this sense, economic success diminishes diversity - which might be costly even in narrow economic terms.
I doubt that will rub many here the wrong way, but Dilley makes a more controversial observation:
It would be very easy here to tell a purely Marxist story of how capitalism warps our humanity. Except for two things. One is that many of the qualities promoted by a market economy (which must be distinguished from capitalism) - such as trustworthiness - are valuable in pretty much all contexts. And for another thing, it is not obvious whether any alternative socialist mode of production would do any better in overcoming the trade-off between human flourishing and personal economic success.
I can hear chaffing in some quarter of RI.

Keith Hart has an interesting post up http://thememorybank.co.uk/2011/05/10/t ... -of-money/where he discusses the need for anthropologists to be aware of intellectual history and how that history shapes how we think. A brief snippet in re Marcel Mauss stood out:
Mauss’s chief conclusion was that the attempt to create a free market for private contracts is utopian and just as unrealizable as its antithesis, a collective based solely on altruism. Human institutions everywhere are founded on the unity of individual and society, freedom and obligation, self-interest and concern for others. Modern capitalism and economics rest on an unsustainable attachment to one of these poles and it will take a social revolution to restore a humane balance.
There seems to me a widespread agreement here at RI that a social revolution is needed. There seems far less agreement about the nature of a social revolution that's needed, or what might constitute it.

Some ideas expressed really are beyond the pale, of course there are disagreements about what's tolerable to us in the realm of ideas. There are some general but explicit rules applied across the threads at this forum. Almost always I presume good faith among the posters here; that is I presume that most of the time people are saying something close to what they actually think and believe. Some might apply a standard of good faith which requires another to change their views when presented with enough evidence of error. That seems an unreasonably high standard for most online discussion forums.
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Stephen Morgan
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Stephen Morgan »

Looking at the definition of misogyny given by the evil dictionary manufacturers:

"hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women."

Not quite the same as misandry, which is

"Hatred of men."

or even

"an extreme dislike of males, frequently based upon unhappy experience or upbringing. Cf. misogynism."

Now, to me, hatred dislike and mistrust is an odd choice, and one of those things is not like the others, which is mistrust. No doubt would fit in with C_w's position that women are generally thought of as villains. What prompts this is actually this thread, in which Nordic posits that men should not be allowed to investigate child pornography, or possibly to work for the FBI at all as his hyperbole is imprecise, because men are supposedly more likely to look at child pornography in a recreational setting.

That, to my mind, is what being mistrusted and villainised is all about, and it would simply never happen to those kind and nurturing females. No woman was ever moved on, or from, an aeroplane because her booked seat was next to someone else's child and it was just casually assumed that this placed the child in grave peril, but this is a common occurence and official company policy for men, at BA for example. This despite the clear majority of child abuse being perpetrated by women.

Obviously it goes without saying that the middle of this thread was entirely based around arguments over misogyny, dominated by the position that women must be trusted to define what is or is not misogyny, interpreting for us all the meaning of our experiences.

But that's not misandry, as you can see in the dictionary, because only mistrusting women is a sin, mistrusting men is the basis of modern society, whether fear-mongering over rape, or keeping men out of traditional female professions and roles like childcare, or pretending things would somehow magically be better for women or anyone else if more women were in parliament or on corporate boards or indeed the general tolerance for feminism on the sexist assumption that while men may be driven by a lust for power women want only what's best for all, or for their children, or some such rubbish.

Just thought I'd stop taking this sort of talk into that other thread, and tack it onto that villain stuff from this thread.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

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compared2what? wrote:It seems reasonable to me to assume that a man who rapes women does not hold the women he rapes in high regard. That has some implications wrt misogyny in a general sense, irrespective of such unknown and unknowable factors as how he feels about himself and why he feels that way. I take it as granted that he is or once was a sensitive and suffering being of some kind, just because I take that as granted for all people.
I have to disagree with that first sentence, there. IANAR, but I think it'd be the other way around. Violent crimes aren't driven by dominance and assertive behaviour, but by positions of weakness and vulnerability. It's far more likely that the do not hold themselves in high regard.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Stephen Morgan »

Joe Hillshoist wrote:I've been away for a while and missed the worst of the shitfight on this thread.
Yes, where have you been, young man?
Same applies to men, thats why so many have worn suits for so long. I suspect womens "professional" clothing has the same function, to reinforce conformity with the economy basically. I read something the other day, a quote by Nina Powell, who was pointing out that the the image of a successful woman these days is one of what capital wants. (The "professional" class is part of the ruling class, and they expect conformity whatever gender/sex of the members cos thats what defines as the ruling class.)
http://www.eortrial.co.uk/default.aspx?id=1098307

Various interesting aspects.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Canadian_watcher »

Joe Hillshoist wrote: C_W

I dunno if Plutonia is talking about staying out of culture, or rejecting one aspect of it.

You all know Poolan Devi right? The "Bandit Queen". Everyone remembers her dacoity but it wasn't till she willingly surrendered, did her time then got elected that she really accomplished stuff that did some good in the world for lots of people. That series of decisions and what she did after is really amazing.
I'm not sure if she is or isn't, either. I am feeling badly for getting my back up so high with Plutonia (sorry, friend Plu!) I promise to try my best to reverse that.

Yes, from how you've described it, Devi's example is pretty much spot on. Nelson Mandella maybe, too? For revolution to be successful it seems that there needs to be an element of radicalism followed by compromise. Unless you go about it like Lenin and just kill everyone - but ultimately that didn't work either.

I cringe when I see women put on the coat of the patriarchy to gain what they believe is acceptance into it. They want that acceptance so badly that it becomes obvious in everything they do. At the end of the day they are women without a country, so to speak, because the patriarchy in its most viscious form will never really accept her, and oftentimes she will have burned her bridges back to her roots, too. I witness that this applies within races and classes, too. The classic 'sell out.'

Between Plu's patience with me over many posts and your post above, I have changed my mind on the corporate example. I am wrong on it. There really would be no good to come of more women on corporate boards, I don't think. That system is not just being run improperly - that system is demonic.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Canadian_watcher »

wallflower wrote: I think--following Canadian Watcher's mention of "The Cult of True Womanhood" that there's a fairly general pattern across regions in the USA where woman have particular authority in the home. There's a fairly explicit sense that mothers are instrumental in propagating the culture through their children. My dilemma as a boy was the culture my mother was intent to cultivate in me and perpetuate was antithetical to the culture of honor the mother's of my peers were keen to.
Funny that you should bring this up right now. Just yesterday I was reading a biographical account by one Southern, black man who has come to terms with his poor attitude towards women. Here's an excerpt that I think is on point:
My mother, working poor and a product of the conservative and patriarchal South, simply raised me as
most women are taught to raise boys: The world was mine, there were no chores to speak of, and my aggressions were considered somewhat normal, something that we boys carry out as a rite of passage. Those "rites" included me routinely squeezing girls' butts on the playground. And at school boys were encouraged to do "boy" things: work and build with our hands, fight each other, and participate in the most daring activities during our gym time.

...

Not surprisingly the "savior" I wanted in my life was my father. Ten years her senior, my father met my mother, my father wooed my mother, my father impregnated my mother, and then my father—as per his socialization—moved on to the next mating call. Responsibility was about as real to him as a three-dollar bill. When I was eight, my father flatly told my mother,
via a pay phone, that he felt she had lied, that I was not his child, and that he would never give her money for me again. The one remotely tangible image of maleness in my life was gone for good. Both my mother and I were devastated, albeit for different reasons. I longed for my father's affections. And my mother longed to be married. Silently I began to blame my mother for my father's disappearance.

Kevin Powell, "Confessions of a Recovering Misogynist"
(By the way, is that what you want to do, above? What you do is type the text you would like to make up the link:

News Article

and then highlight it, click the URL button so that it is within the tags, then go get your url, come back and in the first URL box add an "=" sign then paste the url address after it. :) If you forget how to do this you can hover over the URL box in the toolbar and it shows you an example. If that isn't what you meant let me know)
wallflower wrote: Laurie Penny has a righteous rant up about the princess fantasies popular culture promotes among girls. http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/lauri ... ss-fantasy
I would have to say that early childhood messaging is very important to the formation of the future adult. When I was very small I was lucky to have a grandfather who taught me all kinds of traditionally male things. More than the fact that they were 'male' things (because I really don't know if I even knew that at the time) was that he showed enormous confidence in me allowing me to swim and fish and climb and tend to the fire and ride the riding lawnmower and play in the rafters of the barn and he did so without any panic that I was going to hurt myself or screw something up. Today he'd probably be accused of child neglect or something.. but it wasn't neglect. He was there and paying attention. He just didn't seem to think that I was 'too little or helpless.'

From what I can see reflected around me today there are few guardians of children that are willing to be that kind of a teacher - to either girls OR boys. It's a shame, I think. All of us are at a disadvantage in this sort of 'Bubble Wrap" culture - they steer girls toward princesses and boys towards.. war maybe? They need canon fodder right now, and for the foreseeable future, so maybe they are making boys into little aggressive zombies and girls into pliant wives? I didn't raise a boy so I'm not up on the latest in boy culture.
wallflower wrote: where he discusses the need for anthropologists to be aware of intellectual history and how that history shapes how we think.
Yes, in a fundamental way. I have described how I felt somehow freed and also enclosed into a new community when I read alternative history - the history of oppressed people. It is why I wish everyone could have a strong liberal-arts education and partly why I believe "they" are making it impossible and undesirable for so many people to achieve that. Learning the truth of where we come from is incredibly empowering.

I've gone on long enough. So many interesting things to discuss, so little time!
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by charlie meadows »

Canadian_watcher wrote:Between Plu's patience with me over many posts and your post above, I have changed my mind on the corporate example. I am wrong on it. There really would be no good to come of more women on corporate boards, I don't think. That system is not just being run improperly - that system is demonic.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Plutonia »

Sorry for the delay, fell asleep after gardening/bath.
compared2what? wrote:
Plutonia wrote:
compared2what? wrote:Plutonia, that thing you linked to on prison rape is a forty-year-old piece of alarmist right-wing propaganda the original purpose of which was to scare white kids away from smoking pot
Yes, sorry about that. I reacted to a taunt from C_W and posted thoughtlessly. A misstep you've made great use of.
You're being unfair to me in saying that. But there's no way for me to demonstrate it other than to go back and catalog all the prior analogous missteps that I forebore to comment on earlier out of a sense of fairness, since we all make innocent mistakes, after all. Seriously, that Baumeister thing just tipped the scales for me, in that it acted as a reminder that many (maybe all) innocent mistakes arise in large part from the intentional befuddlement of innocent people by vile and self-interested men and women.
Granted. That was unfair. I take it back. Feeling a bit peevish and took it out on you. I'm sorry.
compared2what? wrote:
Plutonia wrote: I now understand why the discussion of the rape aspect of the misogyny question has been so persistent and fraught. At the risk of being chastised again, I'll say that I happen to see a connection between boys being raped and women being raped (one being that rape victims might just grow up to be rapers) and therefore worth looking at.
I wouldn't just say that I see a connection, I'd say that there is one. So: Definitely agree.

I also agree that it's worth looking at, though I'm not sure that looking at it primarily as something that's connected to the rape of women is worth the cost. In fact, since you'd unavoidably be doing so at some expense to the experience of all the men who are raped as boys but do not go on to rape women in adulthood -- as well as, among others, all the boys (and girls) who are raped by men who have been raped as boys, as well as all boys who are or have been raped, period, given that they all both are and deserve to be looked at as survivors of childhood rape rather than as rapists, no matter what kind of men they grow up to be -- I'm reasonably sure that those costs would be prohibitive.

Likewise, I'm reasonably sure that looking at that connection as a primary approach to looking at the rape of women is not worth the costs you'd unavoidably be incurring at the expense of the experience of all the women who are raped by men who weren't raped as boys, as well as all the women who are, since they do experience being raped by an adult male rapist rather a sexually abused child and do also deserve to be looked at survivors of the rape they themselves survived rather than part and parcel of the damage done by some other act of rape that's wholly unrelated to them.

In short, the consequences of childhood sexual abuse are worth looking at as consequences of childhood sexual abuse. The authors of the study you linked to earlier did exactly that. These were their findings:

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4500 ... encest.jpg

Some rapists were raped in childhood. And when they were, it's worth looking at in context, for any number of reasons. But since there's not enough correlation between being raped as a boy and raping women as an adult that you can posit a cause-and-effect relationship and since giving that hypothesis primacy deflects attention from the known impact of childhood sexual abuse on adult survivors of it, I'm not sure what you think is being overlooked here that shouldn't be. No one is cursing all rapists as sociopathic monsters who were born evil.

It seems reasonable to me to assume that a man who rapes women does not hold the women he rapes in high regard. That has some implications wrt misogyny in a general sense, irrespective of such unknown and unknowable factors as how he feels about himself and why he feels that way. I take it as granted that he is or once was a sensitive and suffering being of some kind, just because I take that as granted for all people. That includes sociopathic monsters who were born evil, although I do have to file them under "in some sense not presently possible for me to determine or understand" absent a better justification. And it definitely includes rapists.

But bad acts are still bad acts, whether you love, hate or are utterly indifferent to the actor. Sympathy for all, in and of itself, isn't a sufficient basis for forming an effective sociopolitical response to them.

What am I missing here?
Thanks for your thoughtful response, c2w?. Your points are valid and we do need to be careful of how we use other peoples experience to substantiate our opinions, I agree. Though I question the idea of “sociopathic monsters that are born evil” because even though we all have the capacity to be violent and abusive, I think that social conditions are deliberately fostered and perpetuated to make it more likely to behave that way.

But consider that if the (aprox) equivalent number of women that are raped is the same as boys and rape of women = misogyny, then the rape of boys = ________ ? Then misogyny and ________ are equally represented in the culture, the idea of which (potentially) makes our idea of the culture take a different shape.

And I’m not suggesting that we fill in the blank with misandy, because little boys are not men and I don’t think rape of children is necessarily done out of hatred. A defining characteristic of pedophilia is that the pedophile experiences the same arc of falling in love with the child and romance that adults experience with each other, so those rapes, at least a portion of them, are done out of love.
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

T Jefferson,
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Plutonia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Post by Plutonia »

Canadian_watcher wrote:this stood out for me.
Plutonia wrote: But say a Traditional woman who is concerned about the health of her community joins the administration with the idea of reforming it. ...

But say she discovers that there is a sterilizing agent in the vaccines being administered by the Public Health Nurse? (as has happened) Or that the Chief has cut a crooked deal to transfer reserve land to the local church, who are in the process of selling it to a logging company, for a big whack of money? (as has happened) How long do you think she will last in her position if she complains about? And what do you think will happen if she takes her insider knowledge to her community to organize protests? Right. In about two seconds she’s going to feel a very big boot on her very vulnerable neck. I’ve experience that boot and you know what I did? I shut up and ran away.
Plutonia wrote: *Cognitive dissonance:
When an individual holds ideals which directly oppose his actions, a psychological phenomenon can ensue known as cognitive dissonance, producing mental stress, anxiety, perhaps guilt.

and

The psychology of prior investment:
Is the reluctance to abandon a direction of action in which one has already invested.

Egregore you'll have to look up yourselves.
Is it perhaps that you could not achieve what you hoped to achieve by that method and now believe that there is no value whatsoever in trying?
Well, I wasn’t the only one who ran away, so that’s some consolation. I guess what I found out is that, if you are really being effective in challenging the State, it reveals itself as the completely lawless, awesomely (in the sense that it actually instills a sense of awe) powerful monster that it is. That’s not news to oppressed peoples in other parts of the world, but we don’t think of it as being like that here. In fact, I think we’ve been conditioned not to see it- you know the monster in the room with us Look away!Look away!! It doesn’t show itself if we stick to re-arranging the deck chairs, I guess.

And BTW, the examples I gave above were not the situation that I was involved in, which was, ehm, worse, though I’m sorry if I gave that impression, if I did.

Candice Hill and Kevin Annett the heroes of those incidents. :
http://www.iahf.com/20001117.html
http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/intro2.html

Canadian_watcher wrote:I do understand what you are saying, Plutonia - and thank you for that reply. I am looking forward to answering more fully later. And properly (and by that I mean without the adversarial attitude). I see that I have blind spots too.
(wanting to put a smiley face here but respecting your boundaries...)
Well I wasn’t aware that I was coming across as adversarial either, so I guess we are equal in the blind spots department.

:glasses: :glasses:

BTW, if anyone is interested, this interview with John Trudell of AIM is illustrative of my experience, though I didn't "lose" my family, some of those with me "lost" family members.
That JT laughs at many of the questions he is asked is revealing too. http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/20 ... n-trudell/


Edit: Another thing i learned from my experience is that I don't possess physical courage.
Last edited by Plutonia on Wed May 11, 2011 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

T Jefferson,
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