rigorousintuition.ca

So would I. But it is very real. A majority of Amricans still think that Israel was founded by Holocaust victims and don't have a clue of the history of Zionism. But you must know the reason for this since you claim to have a full understanding of its antithesis. There must be a source that you can point to.

@ Alice

Before the foundation of Israel as a nation, you would be correct in your assertion that the Zionists were viewed as crazed idealists, or blasphemers who were trying to prematurely bring about the fulfillment of a religious prophecy. Since then, things have changed somewhat.

I would argue that as much as Jewish people may express vocal disapproval for what Israel does (I do), in the backs of their minds, they are thankful that Israel exists. The Zionist gamble appears to have paid off and now their is a Jewish nation state that is not going anywhere anytime soon and which provides benefits to Jews. The idea that Israel should dissolve is a minority one, IMO. There are ultra-orthodox Jews who believe Israel should disappear, but hypocritically, they still take aid from the state.

You and I have gone back and forth about what to call Israel's treatment of the Palestinians; you call it genocide, I call it oppression that results in deaths and that appears to be leading towards genocide; arguably hair-splitting, except, millions of Palestinians are still alive, albeit living under miserable conditions.

I must take issue with your pooh-poohing of comparisons to genocides that occurred in the past. Past crimes are not dead issues. Would it be fair, in the event of a Palestinian genocide, to say that after 50-60 years passes, that it is no longer worth talking about or comparing with, say, the present-day issue of a possible ongoing genocide?

It is unbelievable to me that the U.S. refuses to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, a crime that took place circa WWI, merely because of the Turkish government's political influence. It is equally unbelievable to me that people find this insignificant. It would be like failing to acknowledge that the Inquisition took place because of the Catholic Church's lobbying.

I don't know why people keep refusing to address the point that the U.S. as a modern-day Roman octopus, has tentacles in every last country on the Earth, even in so-called enemy countries. Many of these countries commit various atrocities, yet these relationships and their fruits get scant coverage; all the focus is on Israel. I find the fact that people repeatedly ignore this point suspicious and disingenuous.

The Unanswered Questions of the Holocaust Museum Shooting



--Where is the video evidence of this event?

--Initial reports said a third person was hurt. Who is this person? A second shooter who was wounded?

--If Von Brunn double parked his car in front of the museum, as police assert, why have no photos of this parked vehicle surfaced?

--Why are there no photos of the gun allegedly fired by the gunman?

--Where are the eyewitness statements of those who actually witnessed the shooting and could identify the alleged gunman? Why did no one see this man approach the museum with the rifle he was holding at his side? Some have claimed that guards are routinely posted outside the entrance of the museum as well. If so, what happened to them?

--What were the results of the autopsy done on the dead guard? What kind of bullet killed him? Where did the missile enter his body, the front or the back?

jlaw172364 wrote: I call it oppression that results in deaths and that appears to be leading towards genocide

and at the last minute we said wait a minute, our systematic oppression which has been resulting in numerous deaths appears to be leading towards genocide. oops. phew! close call, we said, retreating.

Paraphrasing Michael Hoffman isn't a good idea either, starviego.

And you want to know something? Exploiting this story is despicable, whether it's to shore-up support for Israeli hardliners or to whip-up groundless hysteria over a "Jewish false-flag."

Many of these countries commit various atrocities, yet these relationships and their fruits get scant coverage; all the focus is on Israel. I find the fact that people repeatedly ignore this point suspicious and disingenuous.

I find much of what you have said on this board to be suspicious and disingenuous.

Wait, so is there reason to doubt the official account of this, or not?

Conspiracy theorists want to know.

Jeff, You caution Starviego about paraphrasing Michael Hoffman. Is this in reference to Starviego's last post with his list of questions?

Are not those questions legitimate ones? Has this shooting been rigorously investigated?

monster wrote:Wait, so is there reason to doubt the official account of this, or not?

Conspiracy theorists want to know.

Only if it follows a proper acknowledgment that someone very real died and that his passing and celebration have been depreciated in the (self) interest of other narratives. Pretty heartbreaking -- the shooter's son was quoted all over the news yesterday as saying he wished it had been his father who died rather than Stephen T. Johns.

Does anyone know of any place on the internet, a forum preferrably, where one can go to escape all the hating on Israel and Jews, I get so sick of reading this sort of crap, its like ground hog day at a right wing patriot militia meet-up.

Its the same thing, all the time, even here of all places. Zionist this, Jew that, over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over...


Bloody hell.

Hilda Martinez wrote:Jeff, You caution Starviego about paraphrasing Michael Hoffman. Is this in reference to Starviego's last post with his list of questions?

It's with the context of this post, and my caution regarding Hoffman and revisionist sources here.

Are not those questions legitimate ones? Has this shooting been rigorously investigated?

If starviego had posed the questions without the red flag of his previous post, I wouldn't have commented.

Hilda Martinez wrote:Jeff, You caution Starviego about paraphrasing Michael Hoffman. Is this in reference to Starviego's last post with his list of questions?

Are not those questions legitimate ones? Has this shooting been rigorously investigated?

From what I can fathom, yes, it seems pretty cut-and-dried. The killer was a well-known, big-mouthed neo-Nazi, he left a note, his relatives admit he was a hateful fucktard who they suspected might do something to go out in a blaze of racist glory, he apparently left a note, his vehicle was traced to him, and one can read his very own words about how the Holocaust was a hoax and the world would be better off without Jews and blacks.

The "what ifs" seem a bit contrived.

I suppose it's our nature here to throw out those "what ifs" ¿no?

Hilda Martinez wrote:I suppose it's our nature here to throw out those "what ifs" ¿no?

Sure. But it's some other things in our nature that I'm trying to keep off the board.

starviego wrote:The Unanswered Questions of the Holocaust Museum Shooting



--Where is the video evidence of this event?

--Initial reports said a third person was hurt. Who is this person? A second shooter who was wounded?

--If Von Brunn double parked his car in front of the museum, as police assert, why have no photos of this parked vehicle surfaced?

--Why are there no photos of the gun allegedly fired by the gunman?

--Where are the eyewitness statements of those who actually witnessed the shooting and could identify the alleged gunman? Why did no one see this man approach the museum with the rifle he was holding at his side? Some have claimed that guards are routinely posted outside the entrance of the museum as well. If so, what happened to them?

--What were the results of the autopsy done on the dead guard? What kind of bullet killed him? Where did the missile enter his body, the front or the back?

1. Video evidence -- probably being pored over by Feds.

2. People make mistakes, especially in stressful situations like, I don't know, some lunatic shooting up a public place.

3. Vehicle photos -- see #1. Maybe the vehicle wasn't that conspicuous and didn't catch the eye of the press cameras, who were understandably focused on the museum entrance.

4. See number 1.

ONE EDIT: Sorry, I missed the last two questions.

5. Again, see #2. There may be many witnesses, but they weren't quoted by media sources and are now being interviewed by the feds. And if he pulled right up to the sidewalk and used a handicapped tag, he could have been quite close to the entrance -- close enough that even with a rifle he could have gotten to the entrance without attracting attention. And are guards regularly posted outside the museum? Says who? Maybe von Brunn waited until the coast was clear.

6. Do you really expect the autopsy results to be made public within days of the incident? Do you also think CSI is a reality program?

I know some people suspect a conspiracy behind every major event, but really, I wonder about the motives of those trying to turn this into a conspiracy when it seems pretty clear -- from the shooter's own words and those that knew him -- that he was a poised to deliver on his threats.

But then again, if you read Rense, it's clear that some people buy into the belief that Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves and Hitler was a pretty decent guy.