rigorousintuition.ca

IanEye wrote:In 1985, [MOVE] made national news when police dropped a bomb on the Osage house from a helicopter in an attempt to end an armed standoff. The explosion ignited a fire in which 11 people died, including five children and the group's leader, John Africa. Only two occupants survived, Ramona, an adult and Birdie, a child. In addition, 65 homes were destroyed as the entire block burned.

I saw a documentary on that! Gah, so freaking horrible. And that was before Waco, and even a more horrible incident because those people didnt even have guns or anything.
Trying to remember the documentary.

I usually agree with Fourthbase, but I mean...what the cops did was way too eerily similar to "good ol boy" tactics of the 19th and 20th century. I don't care how bad or dangerous someone is, that kind of method I find grotesque.
I mean shoot a rocket or tank, but burning someone alive? Fucked up on their part. And I can say that while also saying I am horrified Dorner would kill four people, two of whom were civilians. Plus I feel bad for the two women almost killed by cops in their cowboy brazenness.

jlaw172364 wrote:The government has all kinds of less-than-lethal technologies it could have deployed. Knock-out gas anyone? Thermal imaging to wait for him to fall asleep? Robots with tazers or tranquilizer dart attachments?

Nope.

What we have here appears to be something straight out of the Middle Ages: a good old fashioned burning at the stake.

They could have shot the guy.

Nope. That would have been too quick.

They wanted to make an example out of him.

Fuck with the police, and we'll burn you alive.

Well this isnt a WACO incident, where its still considered "conspiracy speculation" as to who truly set the blaze.

We have the cops on the scanners saying burn the fucker. Yet why isnt the god damn headline "COPS DECIDE TO BURN DORNER ALIVE?"

I mean seriously...am I living in bizarro world? At least be honest about it. Yeah I get he was being a menace but shit son...

4thbase,

The problem as I see it is that the police officers on the scene constituted themselves into a court and imposed and carried out a sentence of death. Since there were no civilians in harm's way, and since Dorner hadn't been convicted of anything and certainly not sentenced to anything, it was their responsibility to apprehend him and bring him to a judge if possible. Their definition of possible seems to me very strange. I would understand if he had been killed while shooting it out with officers, who would then have acted in self defence. But as far as I can see (and this may change, of course), there was no immediate threat. Past threats are to be dealt with by courts, and future threats by negotiators. This was very literally 10th century Icelandic justice at work. While it may have its charms, it also has some drawbacks under which I would rather not live.

DrVolin wrote:4thbase,

The problem as I see it is that the police officers on the scene constituted themselves into a court and imposed and carried out a sentence of death. Since there were no civilians in harm's way, and since Dorner hadn't been convicted of anything and certainly not sentenced to anything, it was their responsibility to apprehend him and bring him to a judge if possible. Their definition of possible seems to me very strange. I would understand if he had been killed while shooting it out with officers, who would then have acted in self defence. But as far as I can see (and this may change, of course), there was no immediate threat. Past threats are to be dealt with by courts, and future threats by negotiators. This was very literally 10th century Icelandic justice at work. While it may have its charms, it also has some drawbacks under which I would rather not live.

That's what I was looking for, thank you. Still, the LAPD (and all law enforcement) has in their pocket whatever definition of possible they can make plausible. Dorner might have actually approached a hypothetical outlier status as a suspect for which a truly wild and improbable escape or sudden table-turning rally was, in fact, possible. But yes, that excuse, and the legal power behind it, in the hands of a corrupt (or even merely self-serving) authority, is...disturbing.

@8bitagent

The cops summarily execute people all the time without bringing them before the judge.

What seems unique about this situation is that they burned him alive. I'm not sure I've ever read a case of this happening, at least not in the modern United States, with this high-profile a case. I've no doubt that cops have set, set, and will continue to set fires to kill people, mostly off-duty as unofficial enforcers for someone wealthy enough to pay them, or acting to cover up something, but this is the first case I can think of where it was done with so much publicity.

Clearly, they're trying to send a message to would-be cop killers that if they choose to carry out their violent plans, not only will they be hunted down and killed, which was considered the norm before, but they'll also potentially be given a horrible death.

Here's my ultimate personal take-away from Dorner: Don't be a fucking idiot. His depravity (again, with the usual disclaimer than we can't be absolutely certain of all that's been reported) is less of a consequence of mental illness than stupidity, myopia, overreaction. Here's what I mean. The good Dorner could have done, the wrongs he wanted known, the defiance and courage and attention...all maybe could have been achieved by going another non-violent route, one of about 10 or 20 or 30 strategies that didn't involve murder, not even a bruise. For example, he could have sold all his possessions and emptied his bank account to pay for an outlandish surprise flood of leaflets that goes viral, or he could have streaked down Sunset Boulevard naked, or he could have...well, I'm sure those particular ideas are on the low end of potential effectiveness, could be I'm not too good at thinking of that kind of thing. But I bet Dorner could have thought up a doozy, if he didn't stupidly conclude that fucking vile murder was his only option and then hop aboard that bandwagon-to-doom with blinders on. Even one where he winds up dead, because if he was tossing himself into the fire, figuratively, then he didn't care if whatever he revealed or pressure point he hit (not physically) got him killed. He sucks because of the murders, which are inherently bad. But more pertinently, he sucks because the murders spoiled the effect of his manifesto's disclosure. A person could do a lot of harmless, clownish shit to get the gist of a manifesto across, especially in the age of instantaneous digital connection. He didn't even bother to think of anything but the cutthroat killing game he was conditioned to view as a legitimate way to deal with problems. He wanted his name cleared? Well, it certainly isn't fucking clear now. Dipshit. Anyway, there's a didactic benefit to salvage from his depraved idiocy. And that is: What NOT to do. Ah, the miracle of antifragility. Trial and error, and Dorner is the big fat LL-Cool-J-resembling error. Something horrific like this can improve the methodology of any future otherwise would-be Dorners. Maybe there should be a PSA addressed to those-who-are-about-to-snap. "Here's a tip, before you go postal. Whatever your grievance, there are probably a multitude of ways for you to 'set things right' and 'make your mark' short of physically harming people. Try heckling, or walking in the middle of traffic with a sandwich-board. You'll appreciate it later." /themoreyouknow

San Bernardino Sheriff John McMahon wants us to believe that his officers did not intentionally burn down the cabin... USAToday reports:

Deputies did not intentionally burn down the Southern California mountain cabin where fugitive cop killer Christopher Dorner apparently made his deadly last stand Tuesday, the San Bernardino County sheriff said Wednesday.

"We did not intend to burn down that cabin to get Mr. Dorner to come out," Sheriff John McMahon said at an afternoon news conference.

He said deputies initially fired "cold" tear gas into the cabin newar Big Bear Lake, then switched to "pyrotechnic-type" rounds" known as "burners."

So, those cops shouting, "Burn that mother fucker out!" intended 'burn' to mean 'deploy pyrotechnic-type rounds.'

Bullshit.

jlaw172364 wrote: What seems unique about this situation is that they burned him alive. I'm not sure I've ever read a case of this happening, at least not in the modern United States, with this high-profile a case. I've no doubt that cops have set, set, and will continue to set fires to kill people, mostly off-duty as unofficial enforcers for someone wealthy enough to pay them, or acting to cover up something, but this is the first case I can think of where it was done with so much publicity.

Three months after the kidnapping of Patty Hearst, a militant group called the Symbionese Liberation Army engaged the LAPD at 1466 E. 54th street in a gun battle lasting almost 2 hours.

Well into the battle, a fire started in the house. Possibly from a tear gas canister. LAFD fire companies under the command of Assistant Chief Willis R. Nelson stood by during the shootout and eventually extinguished the blaze. All six of the SLA members who were in the house were killed including leader Donald DeFreeze.

Patty Hearst was not in the house. She was hiding out in a motel room by Disneyland in Anaheim. LAFD resources that responded to the incident were Division 2, Battalion 8, Task Forces 10, and 26, Engines 21, and 22, and Rescues 14,15,22,34,266,289,and 295.
This was one of the largest police shootouts in our nation's history. LAPD had fired close to five thousand rounds, and the SLA fired approximately four thousand.
This event was televised live to millions of viewers across the country. KNXT Channel 2 Los Angeles was using one of the first live broadcast handheld "minicams" to report the incident in real time.

.

IanEye, national treasure.

FourthBase: Big thanks for the Jacobin piece, that was just fantastically cogent writing.

8bitagent wrote:

jlaw172364 wrote:The government has all kinds of less-than-lethal technologies it could have deployed. Knock-out gas anyone? Thermal imaging to wait for him to fall asleep? Robots with tazers or tranquilizer dart attachments?

Nope.

What we have here appears to be something straight out of the Middle Ages: a good old fashioned burning at the stake.

They could have shot the guy.

Nope. That would have been too quick.

They wanted to make an example out of him.

Fuck with the police, and we'll burn you alive.

Well this isnt a WACO incident, where its still considered "conspiracy speculation" as to who truly set the blaze.

We have the cops on the scanners saying burn the fucker. Yet why isnt the god damn headline "COPS DECIDE TO BURN DORNER ALIVE?"

I mean seriously...am I living in bizarro world? At least be honest about it. Yeah I get he was being a menace but shit son...

word.

In the world I want to live in, the police do not mete out 'justice' or even punishment. They uphold the law and deliver law-breakers to the system that will (theoretically) decide upon guilt or innocence, incapacity or mitigating circumstances, and then we can hope that something like justice is done

It is obvious that the police have largely forgotten their role in the system. I'm a little surprised that so many civilians seem to have forgotten it, too.

"I am the Law! The sentence is Death!"

it could be...
someone got his facebook password (facebook will never publicly release logs of what ip address his final update came from (and that could be faked too, so ))

he had nothing to do with the death of Quan and her husband (gambling related perhaps?)

Woke up Monday morning and his face was all over the news. He immediately gets the hell out of town in hopes of figuring out what the hell is going on and avoid getting killed.

tries to cover his trail by burning the vehicle, can't get to wherever he wanted to go, maybe the friend/relative of a friend/relative who lives in the area, and ends up desperate enough to bust in some place he thought was empty. Find people home. Ties them up. Fails to communicate with anyone during this time. Freaking out big time at this point. Doesn't kill the people he tied up. Makes a run for it...

and I seriously doubt they'll ever prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he killed the couple in the parking garage.

The whole thing could very well have been a setup.

So wait. He had 2 id's? One conveniently found in San Ysidro, to "prove" he was fleeing to Mexico, and another, found conveniently unburned in burned, charred rubble of the Cabin in the Woods?

Yeah sure, happens all the time.

Nordic wrote:So wait. He had 2 id's? One conveniently found in San Ysidro, to "prove" he was fleeing to Mexico, and another, found conveniently unburned in burned, charred rubble of the Cabin in the Woods?

Yeah sure, happens all the time.

most people have multiple IDs. He certainly would have had a navy reserve ID, a drivers license, maybe an expired drivers license, his old active duty military id, expired, etc. Not too odd all that.

Look into the guy on the yacht, any connections to Quan?

justdrew wrote:I seriously doubt they'll ever prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he killed the couple in the parking garage.

Ya never know. And I mean that: you'll probably never know.

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2 ... php?page=3

Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence were killed in the open-air, top level of the five-story parking structure for their Irvine condo complex, but getting inside the building requires a key-card and the car entrance is also behind an automatic gate. Police have disclosed the complex has surveillance cameras.