rigorousintuition.ca

And Alice's 2/15/07 4:15 post above is rich with relevance.

This intensely secret parapolitical war-drugs-finance ganglion of US-Israeli ties is why I think it entirely possible that the Sibel Edmonds story movie is being obscured in favor of a rerun of the Gary Webb story book by using the same title, 'Kill the Messenger' at the same release time as I lined out in this other thread -

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=10785

Since I like to think that most of my posts are disturbing and/or challenging, I really couldn't say.

Seriously, because of the time difference, I usually post during the day (my time), when you guys are probably still sleeping. The only time I have trouble is when I'm posting in the evening (my time), when you all are awake and frequenting the site. By around 9:00-10:00 pm my time, I can't even open the RI board.

BTW, I always copy and paste my longer posts into Word before pressing the "submit" button, just in case the computer eats it.

Some great links, Alice, thanks -- that slate article was especially excellent.

AlicetheKurious wrote:Since I like to think that most of my posts are disturbing and/or challenging, I really couldn't say.

Right up on the sanctuary of a church I was visiting for commercial reasons I saw a sign that read:

"Disturb With Wisdom."

If you don't have a theory that includes the difficult to explain versions of this reality, such as UFOs and chemtrails, then you don't have my answer. I have my own theory as to what this reality shows me and that is the global corporate front controlling world economy and populations. It's embedded within the UN, uses the UN signature trademark for non-government and everything "sustainable" and recognizes countries only in name when it suits the agenda. The US is the mobile military arm.The UN Peacekeeping Forces are the stationary military. NASA and the Air Force are the global missile defense program cover, which encompasses all G8 countries' so-called governments. There is no such thing as a "country". Not even Israel. Especially not Israel.

Play a game. Call it "Name the Motive". Then tell me what the motive is to control each individual that walks the face of this earth. MONEY? Hell no. Power? Maybe, but nah. Religion? Don't make me even say it, but ha ha. I saw through everything "Israel" a long time ago, and honestly, they couldn't have picked a more strategic geographic location for their haystack needle.

I do appreciate all the information I get from this discussion board and members here. I'm not as well read as most on here and I do get valuable information. BUT, please don't overlook what I see as the true heart of this board, blog, and especially Jeff Wells - he's not afraid to research outside of the limits set forth in this scientific and logical reality.

If I've intruded or said anything inappropriate, my apologies.

soulsurvivor, I know nothing about UFO's and/or chemtrails. Never seen any, don't really believe in them. Although their sovereignty has been severely eroded, I think countries still exist, and don't think every person who walks the earth is close to being controlled, especially those who don't drink the koolaid dispensed in the infotainment media and your local pharmacy.

"Outside this scientific and logical reality" is where the baying dogs howl, my friend. I'll stay inside, if you don't mind. Good luck.

I was watching a show last night, about mussolini.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/200702/programs/ZY8007A002D15022007T212500.htm

It seemed like there was a big focus on his obsession with violent seizure of power.

Corporate strength would give him the ability to generate a power industrial war machine apparantly, and he envied Hitler over Germany's industrial might.

I don't think he felt violence would end opposition, cos he created a powerful police state. I think he genuinely felt violence was a valid and important part of power, ie a way to achiewve it, and then at the same time, power was a way to enable violence. And the impression I got from the doco, although i dunno if it was the one it was meant to convey... was that Mussolini would probably have been happy with the violence wthout the power on some levels. or more to the point, there are plenty of potential mussolini's in the world without the ambition, wit or rat cunning and ability to effectively use violence.

In some ways Mussolini seemded the logical extension of ideas writers like Randolph Bourne (War is the Health of the State), and some of Neitzche's work, specifically, "On the New idol", a reflection on the "State" as an entity, In Thus Spake Z.. - which is on appearance a metaphorical description of the state as a giant all consuming monster.

I think that Jeffs "speculation" on the weirder aspects of reality, and their interaction with power structures fits neatly within that context, and takes neitzche's metafor a lot further and to many different levels.

There is a relationship between the state (even "democracies") and the drive for absolute power, and between magic and power, although magic is a term that could go many places, and covers so much ground its almost meaningless.


Ego driven power over the world leads leads to violence, but power over the ego seems to lead to wisdom.

At least to less violence.

getting anywhere in a state requires ego driven ambition, and even outside the state, in say organised crime or a terrorist group. (Cos we all know they are seperate things ).

So in that context alice i don't think the actions of Israel are anything unusual. Just more blatant.

I guess to my mind Israel is such a conveinient structure for the US in the middle east, the place it has used as a predominant source of energy since WW2, that zionism has almost nothing to do with it, its the official fiction that covers the fact that it enables instability in a otherwise united (relatively) part of the world that sits on a massive source of energy and hence power.

the entire US ability to deliver violence is driven by oil.

The middle east is thick with it, so everyone would have been happy to have Israel there (cept the locals) since ww2. It enables the US myth of defending freedom on many levels. It probably suited the USSR, and even europe.

I think Israel exists only to serve US interests. IE Control of oil/energy, and international arms and drugs sales. And soon water and methods of food production.


Then again at the moment so does Afghanistan in another way, or the anti drug activity in south america.

But israel far from the only place, and by US interests I really mean the interests of those who run the world, so not the US but global capitalism.

I think tho, that the way the media portrays Israel is also a very simple form of magic.

You manipulate symbols and symbols systems to create an impression that makes the target audience believe in a reality that is not the actual reality that is happening. To suit your own ends.

I think also alice that one of the reasons israel is easy to identify with is cos it seems like a western place in the middle east.

The Israeli people seem to be "people like us" not smelly dirty heathens.

Unfortunately thats still the way western culture thinks. (Its prolly the way every culture thinks...)

Its like a little patch of western civilisation in the third world. Well thats the inage people identify with. That aspect of humanity may be exploited by tptb but it would be there anyway, it is still there...

The western world sees "white" culture as the peak of human civilisation, and it see's israel as "white" and the rest of the middle east as a bunch of "boongs". This would happen even if Israel was not favoured by certain agendas at the moment.

Lot's well said there, Joe.

Any group in a survival mentality resembling war will resort to secrecy and atrocity.
That's the nature of governments.

Add a horrible past with a geostrategic oil war location and you have a ganglion of every power issue imaginable, rather like a terrorized teen on meth.

And power is a religion which is why it so effects the minds of those who embrace it.
The religion is social Darwinism, might makes right. And the mental dominance in the occult, religion, and mystic/mythic imagery is the mirror of the money, muscle, and machine expression of Power.

Hence the Nazi-Satanism link.

You know, Joe, I'm getting really fed up with your "blah, blah, blah" wordiness, all boiling down to: "oh, well, nothing new here, it's just the same-old, same-old." Your ratio of words to genuine contribution is strikingly high: either you have a LOT of time on your hands, or somebody once convinced you that if you talk a lot, even if you say nothing, that you sound real smart. Hugh, I'm amazed that someone with your sharp insights, who is usually quite alert, are following Joe's red herrings into the woods (the one where you can't see the forest because there are so many damn trees).

It's the equivalent of responding to a cry for help by children being abused, with:

"Well, you know, historically, disproportionate power imbalances, whether between individuals or nations, have led to oppression; this being an inherent potentiality in all such relationships, combined with the vestigial atavistic tendencies which humanity, unfortunately, has yet to begin to eradicate. The likelihood of such atavism being activated is, of course, proportionate to the disparity of power between the strong and the weak, therefore it can be said that the frequency of such abuses is surprisingly low given human nature and given the extreme contrast between the power of adults and the commensurate weakness of children. Rather than point a hysterical finger at such relatively rare occurrences, it would be more accurate to focus on the nature of oppression itself, making sure that we do not single out any particular instance, keeping it as general (and meaningless) as possible."

Joe: either you make a real contribution to the discussion, in terms of RELEVANT facts ("I was watching a documentary about Mussolini last night"????? Before that, it was, "I was talking to a half-drunk guy in a bar"; and "my mum says," OH, PLEASE! Spare us your self-indulgent, self-centered distractions that fill up space and SEEM designed only to derail discussions and disintegrate threads.)

Solipsism is no substitute for genuine facts and serious analysis, pal, even if "your mum" never told you that.

I think also alice that one of the reasons israel is easy to identify with is cos it seems like a western place in the middle east.

The Israeli people seem to be "people like us" not smelly dirty heathens.

Unfortunately thats still the way western culture thinks. (Its prolly the way every culture thinks...)

You're less subtle than you think, Joe. Your contributions to this and other threads are WAY more "dirty, smelly" than the victims of genocide for whom you evince a suspiciously consistent, and chilling, lack of concern, other than to explain that there's nothing to see here.

Alice you are being rude or dumb.

Then again you live in Egypt so you don't understand how jingoistic western media is day in day out. So you might have missed the point.

Your contributions to this and other threads are WAY more "dirty, smelly" than the victims of genocide for whom you evince a suspiciously consistent, and chilling, lack of concern, other than to explain that there's nothing to see here.

What cos I don't consider the genocide in Palestine the worst thing in history I am dirty and smelly?

The whole planet is being genocided and you want me to be more upset about one aspect of it. You don't like me posting, good thing there is not much you can do to shut me up.

And stop hassling my mum, she's probably 7 times smarter than you, and even tries to feed me this rubbish at every opportunity:

Solipsism is no substitute for genuine facts and serious analysis, pal,

But shes got 3 times your intellect alice. And a bit more compassion. And since you keep bringing her up, what she once said is relevent. She designs science curriculums nationally in my country, and is v good at her job. I asked her about her impression of CD, she's not that impressed, for the same reason as me which I have stated before. I think the context of that discussion was the problems with the cred of the CD argument, in that case what she says has more validity than you credit.

Its people like her that need to be convinced of those CD arguments, cos they are effective advocates for that sort of thing.

It was a half drunk guy at a friends ranting false information btw read whats written don't just read your prejudices in the words. And it that context how is the idea that violence seems a more important motivation than than corporate power from some perspectives irrelevent to this thread.

before you tell someone to pull a cork out of their backside you should perhaps pull your head out of your own.

BTW Since this is degenerating, you think I make no contribution to anything, yet hugh sees fit to quote me. Not much I can think of to add to that except this ..!.,

Anyway to try to continue or elaborate on what I was saying.

There seems to be a structural thing going on with the entity of a "state" that causes individuals to act outside what would be considered decent behaviour.

Now when I came across Jeffs blog he was talking about the weirdness in the world and its manipulation by people to further their power, or was the manipulation actually being done to those in power by someone else.

What is it about the structure of the state that imbues people with a sense of power.

War possesses people, even those opposed to it.

It makes them somehow less than they are in their own eyes, and offers to fill that void with itself, as a great warrior or as a honourable soldier doing your "duty" as a resistance fighter sacrificing yourself for your people and their home or as an outraged protstor trying to save the world.

much of what surrounds 911 and the war on terra, or the middle east seems designed to build a structure that finctions on violence and exists for violence in the english speaking west.

To blame this on the neocons is obviously false, although they seem to willingly embrace the idea, and like it or not a nations leadership reflects and shapes its people and the society, its a feedback loop.

the republican leadership of the uS over the last 25 years has seemingly gloried in the use of violence and has thrived by accepting violence as a legitimate first response for the state, not a last resort. The democrats have not been much better, perhaps its a question of scale.

There is something deeper going on here than just manipulation by the elite IMO

They're the patsies who'll eventually take the fall for its failure, which will actually mean success to the real players who've allowed them the liberty to play their hand. Like Oswald, these patsies aren't innocents, but neither should perfect blame be laid at their feet. And like Oswald, when their heads are offered to the public the public will be expected to sigh with relief that the beast has been slain and all is right again in the land.

the public have a fair bit of blame to wear Imo, they are one of the "real players who've allowed them the liberty to play their hand."

AlicetheKurious, it seems that when someone else has a different position than you (on Israel for example), you retort with harrassment and hurtful name calling. This is outright nasty and childish behavior---it isn't playful, it's mean and cutting, rude and offensive and shouldn't be part of any serious RI discussion...

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Any group in a survival mentality resembling war will resort to secrecy and atrocity.
That's the nature of governments.

And power is a religion which is why it so effects the minds of those who embrace it.
The religion is social Darwinism, might makes right. And the mental dominance in the occult, religion, and mystic/mythic imagery is the mirror of the money, muscle, and machine expression of Power.

Hence the Nazi-Satanism link.

Hugh i know you have a fairly rational view on the mystic/mythic energy and its relationship to money muscle and power. One that is also accurate IMO.

But I think there is a supernatural element to reality that is valid. I don't think you extend your world view to include this as valid.

IMPO it is valid. There is an aspect of the occult and religious aspect of this subject that enables people to access a direct non rational, (super rational perhaps,) form of power. Rationalists usually think this view is, at the very least, foolish.

There is the side of controlling the mythos that gives a spiritual control over the direction the Kulture takes.

The war mythology in the US today, and even such things as Bush's invocation of a return to Mars (God of War remember...) by 2020 or 2030 have a role that is more than symbolic. IMO its a genuine invocation of a power or a specific shaping of a raw power that constantly flows into the world. To me the seperation of manipulation of symbols and invocation of forces is a false seperation the two are intwined on a fundamental level.

To me this is also the natural consequence of perverting disciplines or processes designed to develop power over oneself. That is their main purpose, at that point power over the world becomes almost or completely irrelevent.

Usually the techniques that seem to be used in the military industrial occult complex stem from techniques originally designed to be practised in a context of placing the ego second to something else, the family, sect, tribe or a god of some sort. To place the ego in a relationship with something greater than and beyond the self. Perhaps the rest of reality, anything to remind the individual that they are not the centre of the universe.

In the mil in occ complex the process seems to be in a context of pure self service or selfishness.

I think that is what struck me about the Mussolini doco.

How self centred the nature of power is in our current society.

In that context a terrorised teen on meth is an apt analogy.

Been there actually, Personally meth is one of the most selfish things there is IMO. Everything about it is self centred and short sighted. But its a powerful thing at the same time. And to be honest it does have a presence almost of its own. Meth has its own egragore - the "Speed Demon".

So does "the state".

Both are self centred violent and ugly at their core, and both generate enormous energy too.

Our culture seems sometimes to be deliberately adolescent. tribal communities used initiation ordeals to give meaning and direction to the crazy energy released in a human during adolescence, and tried to control adolescence using initiation as early as possible. Our culture prolongs adolescence as long as possible, to the point where celebrity Grandma's get botox to comjpete with teen starlets. Deliberately adolescent...

And on meth... well lets face, many of the worlds politicians, statesmen and general power using/abusing scumbacks are excessive simulanbt abusers - even coffee and sugar sends you off. Let alone prescribed stimulants of all sorts.

This thread is supposed to be about whether Jeff was accurate (prophetic) in portraying the "neocons" as mere patsies, and suggestion that their dominant role in formulating America's disastrous foreign and domestic policies is just an illusion to obscure the TRUE villains, who manipulate them just as they manipulate us. Despite my deep respect for Jeff's knowledge and analysis, I disagreed, I explained why, and I provided evidence.

I love a good debate, the old back-and-forth; if the opposing argument is made logically, by someone who knows how to back it up with information, I consider it a gift not only to me, but to everyone who reads the thread.

What's frustrating is, after working hard to make coherent arguments about a SPECIFIC issue, and backing them up, to find that the only response is some empty babble, requiring neither thought nor research, just a complete lack of feeling for human victims, disguised as analysis. "My mum is smarter than you." Cheesh. She may or may not be "impressed" by CD arguments (let's face it, she may or may not exist, for all we know). If you have a counterargument, make it. If you can contribute facts that undermine the CD argument, or any other, then be my guest. Why don't you ask your mum why she's "not impressed", and then maybe you'll have something worth posting. Meanwhile, I'd like you to know that my sister, who's at least eight times smarter than you, is VERY impressed by the CD argument.

What cos I don't consider the genocide in Palestine the worst thing in history I am dirty and smelly?

The genocide in Palestine is most assuredly not the "worst thing in history", just as the September 11 attacks were not the worst mass murder, even within the past five years. But I am suggesting that both events are worth examining, not only because they are terrible crimes against human beings, but because in the two events the perps have been forced to show their hand, to reveal much more about themselves and the nature of their enterprise, than elsewhere. The zionist project and the Project for a New American Century, for which 9/11 was a prerequisite, are crucial to understanding the malignant forces shaping the nightmare that seems to be inexorably swallowing our planet.

If you agree that these related events are worth studying, and if you have some valuable data or relevant arguments, then believe me, even if I disagree with your conclusions, I will appreciate your contribution.

If you disagree that there is anything special about either of these two events, and you want to engage in vacuous chatter about how nasty humanity is, throwing in some pseudo-insights about the "structure of the state" and "a" nation's leadership, and how "the public have a fair bit of blame to wear", maybe you could start another thread about that. I promise not to follow you there and give you a hard time, just as I wish you would stop blowing hot air whenever a thread actually threatens to be informative and serious. In fact, your point, when I can discern one, seems to be:

"There is no point. It's not possible to know anything specific, don't even bother, besides, it doesn't matter, because there's never anything new, it's business as usual, and besides, uh, it's, uh, it's false to blame the neocons, it's, uh, "the state", it's "our culture", it's all those stimulants, it's "the supernatural aspect", it's "the war mythology in the US today", it's "the public". But for sure it is NOT the neocons/zionists, even if they are fanatic ideologues with enormous resources and backing, and they or their sock puppets just happen to be strategically embedded at the highest levels of the government, military, media and industry, not only in the US but globally. Forget the neocons/zionists, don't look at them, they're patsies (victims): it's the Nazi/Satanists!!!

There are so many of those teflon zionists/neocons, it's hard to pick just one as an example of how incredibly well-connected and influential they've been, advantages which they've exploited to gleefully demand the generous spilling of other people's blood. I just picked Michael Ledeen out of a hat, he's as representative as any other:


"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business."

"One can only hope that we turn the region into a cauldron, and faster, please. If ever there were a region that richly deserved being cauldronized, it is the Middle East today."

Link. Michael Ledeen, "resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.

He was also a contributing editor to the U.S. National Review and the Jewish World Review. Ledeen was a founding member of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs and he served on the JINSA Board of Advisors. In 2003, the Washington Post alleged that he was consulted by Karl Rove, George W. Bush's closest advisor, as his main international affairs adviser.[1] Ledeen was also a member of Benador Associates.

In 1974, Michael Ledeen moved to Rome where he studied Italian fascism and terrorism. In 1977, he went to Washington to join the Center for Strategic and International Studies affiliated with Georgetown University. He continues to visit Italy frequently.

In 1980, Ledeen worked for the Italian military intelligence service as a "risk assessment" consultant.[2] In 1981, Michael Ledeen then became Special Adviser to secretary of state Alexander Haig, previously head of SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe - NATO's European command center)...In 1979, in the period leading up to the U.S. presidential elections, Ledeen, along with Arnaud de Borchgrave, wrote a series of articles published in The New Republic and elsewhere about Billy Carter's contacts with the Muammar Gaddafi regime in Libya.

Ledeen had often been accused of associations with shady organizations. According to the Asia Times, for example, "Ledeen's right-wing Italian connections - including alleged ties to the P2 masonic lodge that rocked Italy in the early 1980s - have long been a source of speculation and intrigue, but he returned to Washington in 1981 as "anti-terrorism" advisor to the new secretary of state, Al Haig." P2 was also involved in Operation Gladio, which was managed by NATO.[1] Michael Ledeen had denied any connections with Licio Gelli's masonic lodge. However, he acknowledged being paid by the SISMI in 1980 for "risk assessment". The SISMI secret services, along with P2 and Gladio, were involved in Italy's strategy of tension.[2]

Ledeen was a major figure in the biggest foreign policy scandal of the Ronald Reagan administration. As a consultant of National Security Adviser Robert C. McFarlane, Ledeen vouched for Iranian intermediary Manucher Ghorbanifar, and met with Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres, and officials of the Israeli Foreign Ministry and the CIA to arrange meetings with high-ranking Iranian officials and the much-criticized weapons-for-hostages deal with Iran that would become known as the Iran-Contra scandal.[4]

Michael Ledeen had been accused by opponents of being involved in the forgery which claimed that Saddam Hussein had bought yellowcake in Niger.

In 2005, Vincent Cannistraro, former head of counterterrorism operations at the CIA and the intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, when asked by Ian Masters if Ledeen was the source of the forged memo, replied, "You'd be very close." However, just moments earlier when asked, "Do we know who produced those documents?" Cannistraro stated, " I’d rather not speak about it right now, because I don’t think it’s a proven case"[5]

Former CIA counter-terrorism officer Philip Giraldi, who is Cannistraro's business partner and a columnist for The American Conservative, a paleoconservative magazine, said in an interview on July 26, 2005 that the forgeries were produced by "a couple of former CIA officers who are familiar with that part of the world who are associated with a certain well-known neoconservative who has close connections with Italy" and went on to confirm that he was referring to Leeden. Giraldi added that the ex-CIA officers "also had some equity interests, shall we say, with the operation. A lot of these people are in consulting positions, and they get various, shall we say, emoluments in overseas accounts, and that kind of thing."[6] (So, if this insider's accusation is true, somebody's bribing 'advisors' and 'intelligence analysts' who are advising the U.S.' top decision-makers. I guess it never occurred to anybody to trace the source of those "emoluments"...or maybe those who could, prefer not to know - Alice)

Ledeen was a board member of the "Coalition for Democracy in Iran" (CDI), founded by Morris Amitay, a former lobbyist for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Ledeen had also been part of the board of the U.S. Committee for a Free Lebanon. According to the Washington Post, quoted by Asia Times, he was the only full-time international affairs analyst regularly consulted by Karl Rove, George W. Bush's closest advisor[1]

He also supported the theory that the Bulgarian Secret Service was behind former Grey Wolves member Mehmet Ali Ağca's 1981 attempt to assassinate Pope John Paul II. A competing conspiracy theory points toward Gladio, a NATO network believed to have supported the Grey Wolves and the strategy of tension in Italy...

Wikipedia Link

Like I said before, Michael Ledeen is one among many, many examples I could have provided, of neocon/zionists whose malignant influence on global trends and events can objectively be proven.

Are you suggesting that we ignore the overwhelming data ('who you gonna trust, my mum or your lying eyes?') that paints a clear, detailed picture, is consistent with the historical context and is supported by logic?

In favor of what? Secret, hidden nazis, meth, "the state", satanists, or maybe just a deep sigh, a wise look and a meaningful pronouncement that "shit happens"?

The whole planet is being genocided and you want me to be more upset about one aspect of it.

No, of course not, since "the whole planet is being genocided", why should we bother to discuss any specifics, to inform ourselves about anything? God forbid that any PARTICULAR "aspect of it" should upset you.

Undifferentiated malaise is definitely the goal to aim for in our discussions here at RI. Before you know it, you'll have those Nazi satanists on the run, I bet. See any? No? There you go!

This thread is supposed to be about whether Jeff was accurate (prophetic) in portraying the "neocons" as mere patsies, and suggestion that their dominant role in formulating America's disastrous foreign and domestic policies is just an illusion to obscure the TRUE villains, who manipulate them just as they manipulate us. Despite my deep respect for Jeff's knowledge and analysis, I disagreed, I explained why, and I provided evidence.

You don't moderate the standards of discourse on this board, nor is everything anyone says a direct response to you. I think part of what Jeff is getting at is the structure of western societies inbuild trend toward control and violence, probably something inherant in any state structure, ie anywhere an institution is set up to regulate the process of law.

You want evidence for that, look at history. Trying to shout me down cos you don't like what I say won't work. Either will pulling that "shut up - your contribution means nothing and you have no right to speak" crap.

I guess my point is that the neocons are just a particularly nasty and virulent stain of the virus that is a federal administration. But their dominance wasn't there during the Clinton administration. Not as earth shatteringly horrible as Bush jrs reign but no picnic for the rest of the world either. US based global theft, i mean corporate capitalism ran riot during the 90s without the need for a neocon influence in the US.

There is an aspect of the neocon right wing movement that doesn't even pay lip service to the rule of law and constitutional democracy, and at this moment in time that suits global capital. previous admins have claimed to work within the constitution, bill of rights and the like.

The state is primarily an institution for the exercise of power, so it functions best for ordinary people when those powers are seperated and limited. And that only happens while ordinary people make an effort to maintain that process and police it.

The neocons and a US populace who as a whole don't take any care for policing their government have come together to make a disaster for the rest of the world, but some elements of the worlds elite profit from this disasterous situation and are pushing their own agendas with it.

They are not all about Israel and Zionism

perhaps that is a part of what jeff was getting at when he referred to the neocons as patsies.

They will fall, and the same structures of power and cash will be in place, behind the next guy and using his agenda and everyone's revulsion at where the neocons led them to further their own agenda yet again.

No one takes responsibilty for their own situation now. They prefer to blame everything that seems obvious, those who have power will take advantage of that.

Your specific arguments are valid, but I think jeff was actually making a deeper point. perhaps the middle east would be quieter without Zionism, Israel, Oil and Neocon warmongering, but it would be happening somewhere else, and unless we start dealing with the dynamics of why this happens we are as a culture going to repeat one disaster after another. All of them with victims who suffer horribly and for no good reason.

of course you prefer to see this attitude as:

some empty babble, requiring neither thought nor research, just a complete lack of feeling for human victims, disguised as analysis.

Oh and

If you agree that these related events are worth studying, and if you have some valuable data or relevant arguments, then believe me, even if I disagree with your conclusions, I will appreciate your contribution.

Bullshit, you have refused to do so before even when other board memebrs called you on it.

The zionist project and the Project for a New American Century, for which 9/11 was a prerequisite, are crucial to understanding the malignant forces shaping the nightmare that seems to be inexorably swallowing our planet.

perhaps PNAC is but whatever I have said on that subject you tend to write off anyway. Any wonder people end up thinking "why bother".

Ever think of how Micheal leeden could be a patsy and who for? Perhaps that is something worth considering in the context of neocon patsies.

Perhaps not.

Like I said before, Michael Ledeen is one among many, many examples I could have provided, of neocon/zionists whose malignant influence on global trends and events can objectively be proven.

Exactly but you are missing the deeper pooint about whether this person is being a patsy and how and for what.

Its all Zionism?

As for Secret Nazis - what is P2 if not a bunch of nazis? What planet do you live on, there is no secret about it. The nazis are real and there. And embedded in every capitalist state.

Well more accurately, the Nazi party and Mussolini's mob, and that mad Pom whose name escapes me right now, plus right wing anti socialist/unionist movements in most countries are political organisations manipulated and controlled by those who want corpporate power and unfettered profit.

But you claim Nazi's are hidden. And its all about Israels plan and neocon will to power.

Which I actually agree with and give my take on it yet you still slag me off...

BTW You keep bringing up my mum, the first female student to gain a PhD in science (botany) at Uni of Tasmania. If you bothered to read my posts instead of just skimming an reinforcing your prepositions you would note that one of my, and her whinges about CD is that the numbers for free fall times are wrong. The claim of a collapse taking X seconds when it actually takes 1.5X seconds is the first and most obviously wrong part of the CD argument.

It sticks out like dogs balls and distracts from other potentially more valid points. As I have said time and again. you prefer to see it as "some drunk guy in a bar" or "my mum said" instead of what it is - an obvious innacuracy being used to represent CD. Something that obviously damages CD cred in the publics eye.

Anyway I have said all this before so I have no hope of it getting thru to you now.

BTW

No, of course not, since "the whole planet is being genocided", why should we bother to discuss any specifics, to inform ourselves about anything? God forbid that any PARTICULAR "aspect of it" should upset you.

Secret, hidden nazis, meth, "the state", satanists, or maybe just a deep sigh, a wise look and a meaningful pronouncement that "shit happens"?

soulsurvivor, I know nothing about UFO's and/or chemtrails. Never seen any, don't really believe in them. Although their sovereignty has been severely eroded, I think countries still exist, and don't think every person who walks the earth is close to being controlled, especially those who don't drink the koolaid dispensed in the infotainment media and your local pharmacy.

"Outside this scientific and logical reality" is where the baying dogs howl, my friend. I'll stay inside, if you don't mind. Good luck.

You don't have much time for other views on stuff do you?

So I guess you don't think there is anything in the deeper view of th west today, as an immature ego obsessed culture that acts like a spoiled child or teenager. Selfishly and with an idea that power is to be used for inflicting ones ego driven desires on others, not to control ones own desires and serve others with ones talents?

Nor that said idea can have any relationship to why a series of power abusing "patsies" lurch from small to large disaster to greater disaster to the eventual ruin of all of us?

Its obviously irrelevent and contributes nothing.

Speaking as the person, who, like, uh, actually started this thread, I have no complaints whatsoever about where this headed. I really enjoyed reading all this.

Except for Alice once again invoking people's mothers -- that's getting really old.